RE: Karl Marx Quote Of The Day

[dexterdumb]

I suppose your right on conjecture on unions and 100 million or so deaths. But there has been good documentation of the gulag's etc...Solzhenitsyn being the foremost. So maybe it's ok to say mass deaths are bad. We can certainly say that Marx was a great contributor to these ideals? I think so.

Comments

[hyacinthesin]

Yes, gulags were as terrible as the American prison industry is today: this is fact through and through. Many, many people suffered torture and ultimately died in prison camps, just as they do today across the world.

However, there is no direct connection between Marx & his work and the gulags of the Soviet Union. In much the same way, there is no direct connection between Martin Luther and the genocide(s) committed by the British Crown. In fact, Marx would have abhorred the creation of Stalin's gulags. There is nothing in Marx's writing which could possibly justify the constraint of free association among the people and the harm, both individual and social, caused by emprisonment.

This is a classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (AKA, "correlation proves causation"). The fact that Marx's writings inspired men to kill other men or to lock them away in cages does not prove that Marx had the malicious intent many want to see in him.

The abuses of certain Soviet leaders do not stain Marx nor the ideas and concepts espoused in his writing. The sins of the sons are not the sins of the father.

Thank you, again, for your comment and continued call-to-introspection.

If youre interested in reading more about how Marxists have buried Marx, there is a great chapter from Cyril Smith's Marx at the Millenium posted over at Marxists.org

[dexterdumb]

I'll have a look see at that!
At least I'm not the only one guilty of false comparisons. "Yes, gulags were as terrible as the American prison industry is today." Really? Prisoners are criminals in most cases, and are paid at least a meager wage for the victoria secret clothes they make. ;). Not only that but the prison industrial complex needs those men/women ALIVE. Forced labor camps and prison are very different things, not least of which is mortality rates...

While i find it hard to dis-associate Marx from the authoritarian tendencies, many using his doctrine, seem to adopt; you are right that the sins of the sons are not the sins of the father. It's terrible to see the only recent success of any countries attempt at socialism is Denmark. Which denies furiously that they are socialist at all. Which is strange, they say they are democratic w/socialist tendencies or something to that effect. But reject any claim that they run a socialist type government. Maybe they should evoke China's version in their defense. I hear the death toll is much lower these days.

Poor Marx....rolling in his grave. Somebodies version of socialism will prevail! Until then just stack the bodies over there. They are beginning to smell......

[hyacinthesin]

My comparison may on the surface seem false; I'll agree the history and purpose(s) of emprisonment are nothing but overly complicated and deliberately obscured in the public discourse. That said, the gulag is of the same class and type as the American prison industrial complex.

"Prisoners are criminals in most cases, and are paid at least a meager wage for the victoria secret clothes they make. ... Not only that but the prison industrial complex needs those men/women ALIVE."

This is true. But, if I may problematize this differentiation from the gulags, I would like to highlight the similarities and contradictions:

• Prisoners in gulags as in American prisons are both criminals in the legalistic sense, convicted in a court of the State's law and sentenced to a human cage for a period of time as punishment. The fact that many Soviet trials were showtrials is becoming increasingly irrelevant for the sake of comparison in these days of plea bargains and habeas corpus vioaltions.
• In America, penal labor (aka slavery) is explicitly permitted by the 13th Amendment. If prisoners receive a wage (and most do not), it is dependent on the specific prison and the state where the inmate is stored. To date, there is no legal statute which guarantees an inmate's right to compensation for their labor.
• In addition, starting in the 1930's, monetary rewards were awarded to gulag prisoners who achieved certain productivity goals, and, in the 50's, wages were offered to all but the most heinous of criminals.
• The fact that so many prisoners in the gulags died is not purely the cause of a tyrranical regime: the medical technologies of a beseiged country, late to industrialization; the strain on food rations, caused by the colossal failure of Stalin's attempt at agricultural centralization and socialization; and the poorly planned and often once-cut supply routes to disparate locations across Earth's largest nation, all contributed to the poor health conditions of and unfortunate loss of life for Soviet prisoners.
• Regarding the question of torture, this is a form of punishment that was reserved for perceived political enemies (particularly Stalin's enemies) and the worst of prisoners (as in the most difficult to control, not the worst crimes). Contemporarily, the American prison system utilizes a variety of torture forms, especially on perceived terrorists, but most common is "solitary confinement," which research is proving to be equally as traumatizing as some forms of physical abuse.

This comment has already gone on a little long for my intention, so, to wrap up, I'd like to say that neither Denmark, nor Norway, nor USSR, nor PRC, or any other State apparatus have ever been socialist or communist in Marx's conception of those terms.

To put this in a somewhat logical syntax: "For all X-isms, X-tianity, X-eans, or X-ites, no X will be found." (I paraphrased this out of the chapter I linked to above.)

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I like to think that Marx is no longer in his grave, that his wooden casket has been infiltrated by worms, and his body has gone from soap to compost to soil. I believe this is what happens to the bodies of those who die in prisons and come to rest in unmarked graves. Maybe, what you smell is the anguish of millions who died without ever being liberated, and, just maybe, the soil of the earth reeks of our cries for freedom....

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Thanks again for making me do my homework. I'm enjoying this dialogue

[dexterdumb]

Very good argument I'll follow. I like your style! ;)