Official Splinterlands - DAO-Proposal: Brawl - Count all frays equally
Problem:
Now a guild can just leave a fray empty and the result against all other guilds in this fray will be 0:0, it even happens in the past that frays was only filled from one guild, so this guild could reach only 0 points in this fray.
Improvement Solution:
All frays count for every guild, so if a guild let a fray empty this counts as 3 points for all guilds who filled this fray. A 0:0 would be only in affect anymore when two guilds doesn't fill the same fray (so it is logical that both cannot win any point).
PROs:
- Guilds are encouraged to fill all Frays.
- Each guild member can contribute something to the overall result.
- With more fights per Brawl, it's more exciting to participate
- The pot for every brawl will increase as more player will counts (every player who win or draw at least one battle count, so for example a player who defend an empty fray doesn't count)
CONTRAs:
- Guilds with few members cannot fill all Frays
Further information
As shown in this screenshot, even a level 1 guild already has 15 member positions, so 15 members can join a guild:
On the other hand, a level 1 (and also level 2) arena only offers 13 Frays, so that with a full level 1 guild, 2 members cannot take part in the brawl:
It cannot happen that a guild has a lower membership limit than the Frays that have to be filled in a Brawl, since the arena can never have a higher level than the Guild Hall.
Here is an actual example for each Tier except the highest Tier (1-4 from 5):
Crowns payout with current and proposed systems. This is without a top 3 bonus, which is going to go away since that proposal passed.
Tier 4:
If you take a look at this table than the change doesn't help the two top-guilds they get even less crownes. The highest positive impact receive "Bitcoin & Brews" at place 7 as they filled all frays, so especially guilds who fill all frays but placed only in the second half ot the brawl can benefit from this suggested change.
Tier 3:
Here it is similiar the top-3-guilds earn less crownes and the Guild " For Sale Top Guild" benefit most as they filled 17 from 18 frays.
Tier 2:
As in the example from Tier 3 and 4 the first guild get less rewards and the only guild in this brawl who filled all frays benefit the most from the suggested change.
Tier 1:
In this example the guild at place 1 as a slighty better reward but as they are one of only 2 guilds who filled all frays this is natural, but look to the impact for the guild at place 7, they can even double their rewards and earn now the sam amount of crownes like the second.
The examples and tables are from @kalkulus - Thank you very much for your impact.
In summary the result of this suggested change is that guilds who fill all frays will earn more rewards and this should encourage all guilds to fill all frays and avoid situation where player cannot take part in a brawl cause they have no opponent.
How about a rework on the brawl types so that the guilds CAN fill them? The alpha/beta/GF brawls kill the chances for an average guild to participate. Voting for a change to anything is pointless until those are reworked.
Very doubtful that any proposal to get rid of specialized brawl frays would pass. These frays are what players are recruited for. If a guild doesnt have a member that can fill those frays, then they need to recruit to fill it. If this proposal passes, there's no penalty for the guild that doesnt fill the fray, only a benefit for the guilds that do.
That sounds like a penalty to me.
The question is what is a penalty - You will with this change in every case loose not even one point but can win a lot of points, so I think it is no penalty.
The other question is how it is in other teamsports ?
What if in soccer one team would come only with 9 player instead of 11 - You think they would tell the other team who has 11 player that they should take out 2 player and the match will be played with 9 against 9 player ?
Or in other sports like tennis, table tennis or chess where the team-events consist (mainly) from a addition of the single-results what will be happen if one of the teams will come with less player than they need - I think it is clear that they loose the matches where they have no player for - so I think it is not natural that you just cannot show up and get a draw (0:0) - IMO this is a design error, always it should be a match and if there is no match because one of the player don't show than the other win the point.
Lets say there is 10 guilds in the brawl and 9 guilds enter a payer in fray spot 6 and 1 guild does not. The proposal would award a win for all 9 guilds against the guild that did not enter. So effectively all nine guilds would go up the leader board in comparison to the guild that failed to enter. Clearly this system will penalize all guilds that are unable to fill spots.
"If a guild doesnt have a member that can fill those frays, then they need to recruit to fill it."
Or rent cards for this frays in the rental market.
You act as if there's sooo many liquid players w/o guilds that can fill GF frays, not everyone can afford to rent these sets either as it could cost more than potential earnings from the game. All this will be doing is forcing more guilds to move down in Brawl Tiers, & have even less guild liquidity in T3 & above. Our guild will most likely be moving back down to T2 because of this just after entering T3 a couple weeks ago. All this does is support the top 100 guilds and penalizes the majority. Been looking for guild members to fill GF frays for over a year and have not been successful. The amount of Frays required for GF are too extreme for the amount of players that can sufficiently fill them, to reiterate, most people in this economy cannot afford to pay out of pocket for these sets along with the current market conditions as earnings are quite minimal and hardly help with the cost of renting.
Basically all fays can be filled via ownership or renting. If your competitor is willing to invest via renting or owning they should be rewarded not you. There should be levels to everything and its voluntary, this nerfing the world attitude is uncompetitive and unhealthy.
First, as far as I know there isn't an Alpha/Beta-Fray anymore - I think he was changed to Alpha/Beta/Untamed what should IMO help a lot as you can play it now with cards from the Untamed Set.
Second, there are enough cards in the rental market so IMO you or your guildmates can just rent the cards you need.
Third, you are free to suggest in discord any change you want into the DAO-section OR run your own personal proposal.
I'll vote for it. Simple and makes sense.
This proposal is an encouragement for players to enter a fray that they are not suited in order to fill the spot. The calculations provided are meaningless because it is not taking into consideration the effect of filling spots with weak players. The stronger guilds will benefit more by scoring many more points than they already do. The struggling weaker guilds will be the losers.
Should this proposal pass the impact would be to lower the quality of brawl battles and for what purpose? - I don't see the merit of this proposal.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Currently participating in an empty or underfilled fray penalizes a players ability to contribute to their guild as well as someone just entering a fray with heavy participation. I feel this personally when I do something like play in a Gold Level CL + RB Fray and only 4 or 5 people sign up. I may win all 4 or 5 matches, but I would score more points for guild in a fray with 10 participants. It currently penalizes players that do show up with a valid deck because other people didn't show up.
Anyway I digress, I have been asked to deliver this message from the author:
I think you would have a different perspective if you participated in a guild that didn't even have enough members in it to fill all of the spots. I have seen so many players leave a guild, stop playing, infrequently participate or enter a spot and not show up to brawl. It is a constant battle for many guilds to maintain a strong member base and it looks like it is getting harder. I am seeing a trend where the only cards players are owning are soulbound and all of the rest are rented and these players don't have long term interest in the game they are just trying to suck the most out of it.
I understand its better to have more players participating. What this proposal does is pretend that all of the players are participating when they are not and we will hand out points as though they are even if you don't deserve it. It's almost like trying to cover up the lack of participation when what is needed is something done about player retention and attracting new players to the game. But I don't think this proposal will be doing anything for the bigger picture.
100% agree here, Our guild have been struggling to fill the gold only and alpha/beta type of fray for over a year now because no one have those cards and no one want to spend to get these cards (especially right now where the game is slowly dying and that card value is flash crashing everyday that pass) This is not a proper solution to the real problem that is that the frays system is broken and need a rethink and to be done better so that it's not only a huge pay to win fest that only benefit the top guilds and top players.
This kind of echo chamber that is in place in the DAO where only the rich people have a voice will lead every smaller player to leave and you guys will be left with a circle jerk of top 100 players being the sole players in Splinterlands...I've talk to many people and let's be honest, everyone are hopping for the next SPL bull run so that they can cash out and leave...We deserve better then that as a community but whatever anyone have to say, DAO is an oligarchy of the richest players that can collude to make anything pass in the DAO and smaller players always left in the dark.
Then you wonder no one want to waste their precious time going to the discord to argue about anything or try to make the game better, it's simply not not built for having the best interested of everyone at hearth but in fact having each and everyone our own personal interest in mind each time we vote. Such a waste of time
The title of this proposal should be "Award free points to guilds against other guilds that leave fray spots empty"
So maybe this proposal is a blueprint of how to get a proposal through.
First make the title sound like it is equitable.
Second write some confusing stuff that says it fair, logical and has way more pros than cons.
Third add some BS calculations and say see it does work.
Literally watched a streamer live upvote this proposal interpreting the title as the individual fray requirement slots becoming more equal in number, as in having a better balance of fray requirements rather than 5 of 18 (almost 1/3 of fray slots) being GF in T3. People are definitely upvoting by mis-interpretation of a bad heading.
The problem for us is the specialized frays. We have enough members to fill every spot but not for the gold foil frays, rebellions frays ect...
They are far too specific for most people who have a varied collection of cards. Much better to have more general frays at the different levels and let the best players win.
Yes, stronger players/guilds should win more, via skill and ownership/renting. to argue otherwise is insane.
or how to try and patch a brawl system that require to be redone from scratch and that make it impossible for a small guild to fill all of their frays that now will on top of that get penalized for it.
Instead of paying for a DAO council master, we should use that money to help splinterland team to hire new crew so that they can finally do their own work themself as right now all the DAO is doing is patching what the splinterland team is unable to deliver in due time and it's getting problematic.
I'm voting no simply because I'm tired of half ass band aid solutions and that we deserve serious change from the team themself, you know that stuff you voted for when Weird beard was still there and made us all fill a brawl survey of what we want our brawl to become but that got shoved away because of mismanagement...
You compete at the level you can. That's it... The end
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STOPwho the fuck wrote this...
You fokkin wot m8? 😜
@schachoberhessen wrote it but isn't replying on HIVE anymore because of downvotes. Haven't seen your name in a while lol. Hope you doing well bro.
haha hey man, still floating around, still kicking. babysitting a goat in a wheelchair at the moment aha.
Hope alls well on your end, am sure SL is keeping you busy.
This will probably spell the end for my guild, we barely fill 7 brawls on a good day. I wondered why we didn't get guaranteed last every brawl, I'm guessing we will now.
Yep this proposal basically supports top 100 guilds/richest players in the game and leaves the rest to crumble in the positions they already struggle with.