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The purpose of this proposal is to restrict Rebellion packs from being distributed in Rewards chests. With the company on unstable ground financially along with the revenue split with the DAO and the changes to the airdrop mechanics with the Rebellion set, it's absolutely vital that we do our best to encourage retail sales of Rebellion packs.
The DAO gets half of the revenue for each pack sold. Any pack not sold at retail equals funds that are not sent to the DAO or the company. With the changes to the airdrop mechanics, the retail sales no longer provide exclusive access to future airdrops. This makes competing with packs that are being sold below retail even more difficult for the company and the DAO.
If this proposal passes, Rebellion packs will not be available in Rewards chests. This should drive more revenue to the company and the DAO as well as help Rebellion maintain value better than previous sets as it will help reduce the risk of overprinting.
I think packs in rewards chest are a great way for a new player to get some extra modern cards and a good reward experience. I don't think the player reaction of getting soulbound cards is nearly as exciting. Cutting even more rewards for older players also loses player interest in the game, which is bad for the economy in general.
I think it's a fair point. At some point constantly treating the symptoms instead of the illness is arguably doing more harm than good. The purpose of this proposal was to give us more time to figure out a better solution. Most people are unwilling to consider that for every pack that goes to a player there's 10-20x going to bot farms. Anyways, Matt addressed this concern today and said that we will need a proposal to add them to chests, so this is ultimately an invalid proposal I suppose. If there's enough support I'll make one to add them to chests. So far this looks 50/50 ish.
Why not consider a proposal that only adds new packs to modern, or something like an 80/20 split, since modern is supposed to be more human heavy and certainly a more likely league for a new player?
We tried having this discussion yesterday after all the drama with this proposal. It fell flat pretty much immediately. After Matt's comments on the Town Hall, we'll have to make a proposal that gets a supermajority to approve adding them anyway. This proposal ended up being irrelevant after that stance change from the company.
I am very disappointed with how this "vote" is being handled. The DAO was supposed to represent the will of the people with stake weighted voting, which is exactly what is happening here. Now it feels like the goal posts are changing because the vote isn't going in the desired direction. Since I started playing in Untamed, there have always been packs in reward chests, it has always been the "default". With the "results" of this vote in hand, there is no reason to even bother with a "second vote" requiring a "supermajority" as we can already see the foregone conclusion based on how THIS vote is shaping out, so why even run the proposal? If the problem is that we don't want packs going to bots, then we should do something about the BOTS, not hurt the PLAYERS even more. I love the game, but after spending thousand of dollars on cards and packs in order to PLAY, it seems like the PLAYERS are the ones constantly being sacrificed at the altar of bots. Land doesn't pay the SL bills, there is no SL revenue coming in from land, and RB cards have less PP than CL so won't be used, making packs ONLY use case PLAYING the game. If we continually take rewards away from the PLAYERS, both in the form of high unlock fees for SB cards, and now the elimination of packs in chests, what are PLAYERS playing for? The tiny amount of SPS you can possibly open amongst a sea of merits and potions? To continually disincentivize PLAYERS is going to hurt SL more than any bot farm ever could as they will stop investing in the game, even though the game is fun AF. I bought 600 RB packs, so roughly $2000 worth after discounts etc. For that cost I could have bought a Playstation4, an Xbox, and a ton of games. I chose SL partially because you are (supposed to be) rewarded for the "time and attention" you put in. That "value" is rapidly degrading, and it feels like PLAYERS are being actively pushed out of the game in favor of tokenomics, LPs, and passive earnings instead of PLAYING. There is a value proposition in every choice we make, and I would never have imagined that one of the tentpole rewards of the game, and perhaps the most exciting one, packs in chests, would be removed. Had I known this before the presale it would have effected my decision to buy as much RB as I did. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for RB, but every choice being made lately is causing me to ask myself why I'm spending so much time playing when I feel like as a PLAYER I am not valued. Sorry for the long rant, I am just frustrated right now because I feel like nothing is going the way of the player in regards to the decisions being made. If bots are the reason for SB high unlock, and bots are the reason why we can't have packs in chests, or special promotions, then DEAL WITH THE BOTS, but please, give PLAYERS a reason to keep playing because although fun is fun, this is a REALLY expensive game to play "just for fun". Thank you for listening.
To be clear, I'm not super happy about this situation and feel like we had a fundamental breakdown on this one. I personally believe Matt misspoke in the Town Hall because as you've noted, historically we always have had the packs in chests so it was just like "yea seems like normal." That said, this is the first time the company hasn't fully owned a core set. The company didn't put RW packs in chests either as they didn't own those. If you listen to the most recent Town Hall, Dave actually asked him for clarification on this because of all of the drama and people asking why we're even having this vote etc. Essentially it was a response that wasn't thought out properly as the company has entered into a partnership with the DAO for half of the Revenue.
My personal concerns are addressed in the post. Those didn't come from Matt, I went to him with those concerns before making the proposal. He agreed it should be a DAO vote. The issue seems to be that I was operating based on what he said in the previous Town Hall and I'm guessing he thought I was going to create a proposal for whether or not we should put them in the chests. Seems like a misunderstanding, but yea like I said I don't like the optics on this. If the community supports putting them in chests it's as simple as running the numbers and making a proposal to add them. All of my reservations are the same. It's less about "not having packs in chests" and more about addressing the obvious problem that the lion's share of those packs are going straight to bots that dump them on the market and reduce revenue for the company and the DAO.
No, I get it. But again, if the problem is bots, let's deal with the bots, not "punish" the players who are the lifeblood of the game and the only reason (speculation aside) that packs sell. If you read the room in the comments on this proposal, you see that I am not alone in this feeling. I just want to play and have the opportunity to open cool rewards and buy / sell / trade them like we used to be able to. Between this and the SB unlock fiasco, players are paying a very high price for the bot agnostic stance the team used to have. I can appreciate not wanting to dilute the value of packs so that more sell, but alienating the player base who will buy them is hardly the way to rectify things imho. I've put way to much though and attention into this and the SB rewards unlock lately. It's time for me to mentally check out for a while and just see how things unfold at this point and enjoy the release of RB without dealing in the "politics". I felt compelled to say my piece, and now I have. Let the cards fall as they may.
sorry but ,the dao did not receive any decision-making or ownership rights, but only 50 % of the revenue. this was also clearly emphasized in the proposal for the rebellion payment
Fantastic summary of the cancer plaguing the game: That for about a couple of years, this might make it about a dozen changes now that have nerfed the regular player instead of zapping the cancer at it's source and dealing with the anonymous multi accounting and bots. Are the team ever going to face the obvious fact that, on top of the bear market blues, players have left the game in droves because it has become an unbearable ripoff (yet fun!) and the game will eventually die if they don't somehow ensure one account per player? The stupidity is breathtaking. Literally any financial opportunity online whereby smart determined people can extract profit from a system will be exploited, and to allow it with anonymous multi accounts is like burning your own house down. What will every such person do when they detect such an opportunity? Make thousands of accounts. The guy who introduced me to the game had 3000 accounts at one point. He even agrees with me. He knows that it's madness to expect such a system not to be exploited, but figured, well, if they're going to let me do it, I will! As long as any value remains on the table whatsoever for the regular player, anons will take thousands x that. So the team is faced with a choice: eventually nerf the rewards down to zero and stop being a play to earn game while continuing to allow multiple accounts (which won't bother anymore if there are no rewards), or deal with the multi accounting anons and ensure 1 account per person.
So wait a minute, do correct me if I'm wrong: Even though this proposal which quite clearly says "Do not put Rebellion packs in chests" - which is not an ambiguous statement in the slightest - is being overwhelmingly voted against, the team are just going to ignore it and reword it until they get the result they want? Do they realise how dodgy that looks? I wouldn't mind so much, but the premise of why Matt (I think you said it was his proposal) put forth this proposal is flawed anyway, and would only make logical sense if the packs were going to sell out with no daily burn happening, which is surely not going to happen until a bull market in crypto.
No need to reply, I've read more of the thread and you've covered it a lot!
Can you show me the data to prove that 10-20x is going to bot farms?
https://peakmonsters.com/dashboard
30x more battles yesterday, it's not hard to extrapolate that more chests are going to wild... if you put a finite amount of packs in chests and they get significantly more chests, they will get drastically more packs. It's not an exact science as there is RNG involved. Currently there is no split between modern and wild rewards chests. They are just rewards chests. The SPS battle rewards are split... perhaps in the future we could have a cap on how many packs per league per day and just let the bots fight over the few that are in there? Willing to consider other options. Tried to have a discussion about putting packs in modern only yesterday and that got shut down pretty hard.
30 x more battles in bronze wild doesn't equal 20-30x more rewards for bots bro, comon you must know this. haha... they're earning fucking dust in bronze wild
I respectfully disagree. I do think the soulbound rewards is pretty good. It doesn't affect the economy so they can just pump them out without any worries. Remember what happened with Chaos Legion set? Djinn Oshannus is now less than $1 and he's a legendary card. I don't think that ever happened outside Chaos Legion and there's a big coincidence, Chaos Legion, I think, is the only set that was added as a reward pack/cards.
I like the soulbound but the only complain I have is that they aren't strong enough to compete with the other cards. They're comparably weak and that's why they aren't used more often resulting to less excitement.
i don't like the logic behind it at all, and i don't agree with it at all.
cutting my rewards, i will buy less packs, maybe even none at all.
because after all the hassle of not unlocking our soulbound cards, now removing packs from the rewards.
i try not to pay a single cent more into the game. because the game obviously only knows one direction, raise paywalls and cut rewards. so splinterlands should not be surprised if depositors become less and less. who books a hotel with bad service, bad bed just because the price is high and the food portions small?
chaos legion was also in rewards and i still bought thousands of packs.
the bad thing was that splinterlands made weird deals to destroy the value of our packs. bulk buy with ygg where you could pay with potions etc. this was shit. totally upside down world here
There are 12,475,000 CL packs in circulation or opened. Of these, around 1,200,000 were distributed in rewards. So how do you come to the conclusion that the rewards are to blame?
p.s. without the bot farms the number would be far lower still 😚
"who books a hotel with bad service, bad bed just because the price is high and the food portions small?"
I honestly believe that this will just reduce the interest in actually playing and will end up having the opposite effect than the desired.
I'm in the minority here but I'm going to go against this. Packs are fun. Packs feel rewarding and rebellion packs actually are rewarding because they'll be scarce and you can even hold them for airdrop rewards (if you spend vouchers) which is awesome. We already have soulbound reward cards which I love but they'll never be valuable. I don't think these packs will do much to slow pack sales and bots are literally 1/10th as active as they once were and dropping off. And most of them are still in bronze where pack chances are much lower.
Many people play this game because of the rewards. We could make the argument all day that we should give less rewards so people have to buy more of what they want. We could say let's give less SPS so people have to buy more of it instead. We could do that down to nothing. There is no end to this argument of give less and people will buy more but the unintended consequences of that aren't hard to see. The less you give, the less people need, because we'll have fewer people who want to even play.
I want my little hit of dopamine when I get a pack and another one when I get to open it and see if I got something I wanted. That's good for the game.
I'm with you on this!
Packs are the only thing left that gives some kind of ROI in the game,
If this vote passes I'm out of Splinterland before everything collapses even more.
I'm mixed on this issue because I see the need to both protect the system as you defined, but at the same time reward players with incentives.
I feel these are crucial issues that affect my vote:
we are in this position economically because in the past we were slow to react to bad policies. This is a pro-active step and stops a potential problem before it gets out of hand and thus gets worse. This is a positive change showing we are learning from our mistakes.
I believe we have more votes coming in the future that can change and improve our situation, like @bronko's proposal on large bot farms. If we can continue to work together to improve the entire economic system together, then I believe we can revisit this issue and add back packs later (if we choose to do so).
Matt has stated that he would prefer the packs not be in ranked, and instead has other things planned for loot chests. I'd like to give Matt the flexibility to determine the rewards, especially when we have a huge new mode (land) where only he understands the possibilities and plans.
Based on these issues, I will vote for this proposal. I think stopping a potential economic problem before it starts is smart. I think people voting to do what's best for the game, even if its not best for them personally is the way to move forward (I get as many packs as anyone in the chests, so I take a hit too). And finally I trust that Matt will add new fun things to replace the value of the packs with something new.
totally against it. DOnt cut ouer rewards more.
While I do see why this proposal would help retain value for the rebellion edition and give more income for DAO and the company, but I just don't like it because of breaking the tradition.
packs in rewards have been a thing for years and years now and if we decide to not put rebellion packs into the reward pool, then I would really love to see a compromise to maybe put something else into chests.
A couple ideas.
An alternative would require a second proposal. We have been trying for several days to come up with an alternative. This is time sensitive and people couldn't form a reasonable consensus for alternatives. the closest we got was gladius packs.
Several people suggested several alternatives and the most common was offering other packs to dilute the amount of rebellion packs offered, the final numbers is where the consensus seems to have failed.
With regards to being time sensitive I don't understand why we can't take some time to come up with a clear proposal even if it means offering no packs for a while instead of a coming up with a half backed proposal such as this one.
I would say this proposal is crystal clear, it's just not what you want to see. You're more than welcome to make a proposal or draft one for community review with an alternative. Keep in mind that even if this passes, it doesn't mean we can't make a proposal to add them in a few months.
I did suggest make a soul bound mini pack where you get around 2-3 rebellion cards. At least this way, you are forced to open the packs but the cards are tradeable. Potions still apply like normal packs. Though I like gladius packs but I feel that should remain exclusive to Guilds.
Extra dev work to create something that doesn't exist is going to be hard to pass in a timely manner. My suggestion would be that if you want to see something else, either make a compelling proposal or a compelling draft and share it in the Discord topic suggestion thread. There's also nothing saying we can't run a proposal to add Rebellion to rewards chests in a few months.
No, just don't nerf the packs in rewards at all. 10x fewer? Thanks man! I spent like $7000 or something this past couple of years, and packs are like the only thing with any value in the chests at all, and you want to take 90% of them away, and are framing it like its a compromise when I probably only get about 1 pack a season anyway. So, 10x fewer would be like 2 or 3 packs a year for me so about $10 worth of rewards on my 7 grand investment, which was made before the team already nerfed my rewards about a dozen more times. Why is anyone giving this any time of day at all?
I believe that receiving packages in Chests is a JOY that makes the game more interesting, and not something that kills the economy.
The proposal will do much worse for the economy - killing players' desire to have Fun in the Game! This is not much that a company can do for all our EXPECTATIONS and compensation for FAITH in the project!!!
I disagree with the proposal vehemently, if this passes I will consider selling everything I have in this ecosystem.
Split the rewards with 33% Rebelion 33 Chaos and 33 riftwatchers but do not remove packs!
We have already destroyed reasons and rewards for new players this is just the nail in the coffin.
Will packs start going into rewards chests right after launch if this fails? or will there be some sort of delay?
Matt addressed this concern today on the Town Hall and said that we will actually need a proposal to add them to chests. He rethought previous statements, so this is ultimately an invalid proposal. If there's enough support I'll make one to add them to chests. So far this looks 50/50 but will be good to figure out if there's potentially enough support to pass a proposal to add them.
I would like to see them added. I do think it's reasonable to wait a couple of months before that happens.
I am surprised another proposal is needed. I remember Matt said by default packs will be included. This is unnecessary waste of funds and time.
Man, that's quite a maneuver to pass what you guys want, not interested in players response at all and that's really not fair. The tradition is putting then on chest, so the current proposal would be enough. What Matt is doing is a stretch, and for me, a scheme! So pissed with myself in buying stuff from the game today. I should have left instead of getting more in.
If it is 50/50, in the end, the first proposal will NULLIFY the second if that one d passes and will generate a paradox! And if you guys do not put Rebellion packs it chests, that won't be LEGAL or right to the community! That's not how proposals should work!
In elections, there's no new elections to choose the president you don't want! Do you guys realize how bad that second proposal will look?
This is going to be a big, fat 'NO' for me. The company's "unstable" finances are due in part to bad policy decisions in the past. why in God's name would we decrease our value (which I will respect and appreciate because i've put in the time)in order to increase the Company's? they made bad economy choices despite very clear indicators. this Bear didn't sneak up on us, and was expected...and Bear market issues are the ONLY ones the Team isn't directly responsible for. EVERYTHING else has been at the hands of bad policy on behalf of Matt, Aggy and the rest of the team.
Tell Matt to just donate all his earned chest packs to the DAO...and maybe you should too. that way the community as a whole doesn't have to pay for the bad choices of the team.
Damn right. Nerf players, nerf players, nerf players, never prevent anon multi accounts. At this stage I wouldn't be surprised if the team faced a lawsuit. How many people spent thousands over the past couple of years on the understanding that that money spent would earn financially valuable rewards, only to see them nerfed time and again, to the ridiculous extent that now people will essentially have to BUY their rewards (yeah fuck off with this "unlock" bullshit) after already spending thousands on the assumption that they could earn them.
so the dao pays a dude 60k$ year to come out with nerf rewards idea to save a company sinking after itself proposed the 50-50 deal with revenues to receive founds?
What's the impact of this pack wise? How many are given out each season at each league level
-I think this info is pretty critical and would have liked it to be in the original proposal so people can consider before they vote (not so much of an issue as a pre-proposal but i think people need more info for full proposals).
If its a few hundred packs i'll likely ok with them given out each season, however if its 1000's then i wouldn't be - the numbers matter here imo.
Is there any plan to replace the loss in value removing the packs represents with something else (like a "reward pack" that when opened drops cards in multiples like they drop separately from chests, or something else entirely? or or we just devaluing rewards?
I play in diamond 1 and let me say this the few packs i get are not even close to being enough to stop me from needing to buy packs. I am against this. Do not do anything else that takes away rewards from players. If anything being able to get a pack and try out a new card was one of the biggest reasons i ended up buying a large amount of packs. If anything give out less packs in chests but do not stop giving them out. For me if this passes i will prob skip Rebellion all together, and focus on land. Getting 1-5 packs a season is nice but does not stop me from needing to buy packs.
I will vote no although I understand why people may vote yes.
I believe this proposal will, by reducing the fun derived from opening rewards, do more harm than good. It is clearly aimed at and will impact bot farms more than individual players and yet individual players are the ones who will feel punished every day when claiming their rewards.
I'll also speculate that as Splinterlands leans heavily upon the community for marketing this proposal will, by reducing the potential for viral screenshots of 'jackpot' rewards, make efforts to acquire new players even harder.
A replacement should be offered to sweeten the bitter pill players are being asked to swallow. Something to retain the excitement of chest openings and prevent them from becoming more tedious in the name of reducing extraction.
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
As a person that already spent (and is still spending) a lot of money in the game, I've said many times that if Rebellion packs are not distributed in reward chests, I'll sell all my assets and leave the game for good because it will be the last strawl.
Rewards are what make the game exciting, and we buy assets, rent SPS, try out best to know the meta and enhance our skills, just in order to get the greatest number of chests possible every day/season. And that's because the act of open reward chests is awesome! Now, just put in mind the outrage you are proposing. You propose to take out of the rewards chests, exactly the item that's more exciting to get.
This is maybe, the worst proposal I've ever seen regarding the interest of players. Remember guys, the game MUST be EXCITING and rewards are a BIG PART of the game!
You have to try to increase the player base, but most of all, do not kill the current players, especially the ones that have been faithful to the game and have been playing for so long!
Once upon a time reward packs consisted of cards only. Cards that were worth $ and could be sold on the market. Now the packs are commonly near worthless with a pack consisting of a fraction of an SPS (lol) and maybe a common card or 2. You are now proposing the packs consist of nothing?
I vote no.
Chests! He means chests! But he's damn right!
I need them packs in my chests. Thank you.
my answer is simple to this proposal if this proposal is pass. this thing will kill ranked play. many players will leave the game including me. voted no.
I (even that I have a small bag of sps) will vote no.
I think packs are the most fun to get out of a reward chest. But I’m also on the side of the yes voters because of the bot farms that are farming these for income.
I think that they can only be rewarded in modern. Because of the anti bot ban.
In this way you know that only real players can get them
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @clayboyn!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-11-24 08:48 UTC
I'm against this. How many packs do you think will be awarded per month (2 seasons) in each of the leagues?
While I'm against current proposal as it is now, I'd be down to remove packs from Wild league and keep them in Modern.
While I will vote for this proposal, I also agree packs are a thing we need to keep happening on some level in random chest drops. Maybe place out mixed packs at lower drop rates? I also think post land, there is soo much opportunity to add additional reward drops like Time Crystals and Grain and whatever future items which I am sure will be a thing in order to keep the TCG battling aspect closely connected to Land development. This is why I will vote to suspend RB packs for drops for now since it's likely to become an actual proposal and wait for a decent counter proposal that finds good middle ground.
I will vote for this proposal despite the fact that I love packs in rewards. There is nothing more important than that the company survives, that the team gets adequately paid and that they have the funds for maintaining and innovating Splinterlands. It's a small price to pay for the sustainability of SPL and if Matt thinks this helps preserving the longevity of the game, I will vote for it. New players won't miss the packs because they will never know they were there and old players will still get other forms of rewards.
This will not help the company survive. This will drive more players away from the game. The team need to prevent anonymous multi accounting if the game is to survive as a play to earn game. It's that simple. You either nerf the rewards to zero (good luck selling $4 packs) to stop the bots, which means no ordinary players will spend more than about $20 to play the game, or you have a play to earn game with some sort of mechanism to ensure one account per person. This proposal is not going to help the business survive long term. Every extra nerf they do like this only drives more individual players away, while the bots will remain as long as there is any financial value in rewards whatsoever.
not enough data in this to do anything with it. How many packs are awarded daily currently? How much impact will it even have?
Anyway, thanks for the 100K DEC burn !
sounds good to me, we should consider storing rebellion packs in the dao as a vault or treasury for the future, then the dao could do special promo sales of sold out sets for example in the future and raise funds at will while delivering value to new players who werent around at that time.
got my support
Rewards are rewards, packs are packs.
We already get multiple copies of reward cards in chests, so it undermines them if we give away packs too.
I don't care as I am not getting one or two reward chest for daily quests. As a reward I am getting fraction of a SPS or a few merits. This is becoming more and more disgusting.
I get why we might not want more packs in the market, but as long as daily burns are happening anyway, such packs being in reward chests won't affect sales. Were the set likely to sell out and there being no daily burns, this proposal would make more sense.
I'm sorry but people getting what very few packs they do in rewards, does not stop them from buying packs they want. You literally need thousands of packs to max out decks and reducing rewards is not the way to create pack buying. With rebellion coming out, it has destroyed CL value. Those packs are down to like 80 cents on the secondary. One solution to this would be to add RW and Rebellion to the pool of potential pack rewards which would reduce the amount of each sets packs being rewarded per season. You cant create FOMO by strangling players rewards, you will only push those same players away. If they are going to buy packs, they will.
I haven't read all the comments, but I am curious what the thoughts would be for the DOA having promotional items (like packs) if say packs were removed from rewards? I'm catching up on proposals, but also I think it is worth noting that in my opinion, a key reason that NFTy users offer a profit split on their decks is also because they get to keep the packs that are earned in play. My understanding is that this also occurs for the spl-decks listed (which then packs go to the DAO). If you take away the packs then there will probably be fewer players using or listing decks for profit share which would also decrease the player count overall.
HONESTLY, I would just reduce the possibility of getting packs in rewards chests for players in higher Leagues.
This could promote smurfing in lower leagues to farm chests. but im not saying to raise the % rates, just reduce them the higher it goes
What happened to this proposal, because it was not accepted, the rebellion packages should appear in the reward chests and it is not happening yet.
There was miscommunication with Matt when creating the proposal. If we want to add them to packs we have a proposal to do so since the DAO owns half the packs. I pitched numbers to people a few times in Discord and we couldn't get any kind of consensus, so basically we're waiting for someone to make a proposal that can pass to define the terms (how many in packs etc). There's also a lot of people that don't want them in chests at all, so any proposal is going to need to overcome that hurdle as well.
Thank you!