We try, certainly I try, to be a better person every day, to be forgiving, to learn that not everything that people do is because they hate me or hate people that I love. It's really difficult, I won't lie, I won't sit here and say that I don't struggle with the same fears that everyone else does.
And When it comes to my experience of Steem, my plans for Steem, I have the same fears as everyone else...
What if the ride ends?
What happens if we don't make the right choices, if we end up eating each other alive because we are so busy blaming others for all the problems that we have. Of course, I can only speak for myself, and as flawed human the fear of losing something precious, this thing, this journey that I've been building for almost a year now sounds heart breaking.
But what might be important to understand is that I'm not alone on that fear, that I'm not the only one who wonders at times if we are going to survive the experiment, if we are going to create the right kind of culture that will result in abundance and peace. After all, that is what we want, right? We all want to be in a place that we enjoy, that makes us excited to participate of, that feeds our mind and soul. I can say that is what I want, and maybe naively I hope to be in the majority.
So, everytime I see one of the flag wars start, everytime I see how we attack each other as if on the other side of the screen a human is not present. I can't help but to wonder if we are repeating the same mistakes all over again, the ones we wanted to escape from, the heartless corporate world, the greed, the enslaving system that eroded our freedom to choose and made us come flocking into this little experiment based on a cryptocurrency. Why do we love copy paste so much, that even here we are making the same mistakes we've done before?
So here we are standing almost ten months later and it seems at times we are still not moving forward. If I'm allowed to ask, if I'm allowed to be so upfront about this at least this one time, I just wanna say: How does this pan out? What is supposed to happen? What is the better choice?
Let's leave emotions aside, nicknames, insults, accusations, for only one minute. Pretend everyone engulfed in the discussion is sitting in front of a table sharing a little tray of peanuts. Pretend, that somehow you all got tricked into having to see each others faces, having to talk to each other. There is nothing to do, not TVs, no distractions. All you have left is that human, that fellow human right in front of you.
How do you want our little reunion to happen? What if it could be pleasant? What if we could laugh about something silly? What if we could agree on more than we disagree? What if?
I've you made up your mind before you even got to the table, then my friend, you already lost. And that is the only thing I'm trying to address here, the only thing that matters.
Here is what I think I know... and I say I think, because I only know what I can see, but indulge me.
@fulltimegeek is a flawed human being who is always trying to put his values forward. He acts selfless as much as anyone could ever ask him to be. Is he perfect? of course not, I just said he was flawed, just like me, just like you, but I can recognize in him intent to be a force for good. He's never asked for money for his delegations, he's never asked anyone to upvote him back, yet he has given a lot.
I also see a man who is very protective, who wants to defend STEEM because he is passionate, because he believes that it's true potential has not been tapped, not even a little bit. What are you to expect from someone with that mission? What can we expect from someone who is fighting in his way, mind you, to keep the boat from sinking?
And... on the other spectrum I see @haejin
A man who has taken more abuse and more insults than possibly anybody else ever on this platform. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe someone can show me someone else who has been insulted, memed to death, threatened with death and that threat even included his family. Please, I'm not implying perfection, I'm not implying victimhood here, I'm attempting to give everyone some balanced perspective on this matter.
Let's be honest with ourselves, because we ought to: How would it feel to be hated so much, by almost everyone for months? And then, once you land two feet into that practice in empathy. Ask yourself what would you do?
I'm not trying to rehash specifics of the fights, of the arguments, of the accusations, that's not my point nor do I think it to be productive. What I am trying to say is that if we can't see whole picture, then we can't even begin to heal, and it's obvious that it's necessary.
I want to be clear, I'm not implying moral superiority, Who am I to be prosecutor and the jury? I'm saying that we lost control of this "battle" because it actually never had to become one in the first place.
I'm going to do the crazy thing and apologize to @haejin and @fulltimegeek for my role on this thing. I probably should have said something before, I probably should have tried harder. At times it feels like a voice like mine holds little weight, but I've only been fooling myself.
In a way, we all want the same. We want STEEM to do well, we want people to enjoy this place, to have fun, we want to enjoy financial fortitude, freedom. We just have been disagreeing on how to get there, and fighting over the path to be chosen.
I know @fulltimegeek had a truce with @haejin. I also know the truce is currently broken. I learnt today from old posts I was given that many times, plans were set in motion to difame @haejin, to make him look like a monster to everyone, to make sure that absolutely everyone here hated him. I ask you... Is he a monster? Did the insults, the hate push him to grow his sharp claws?
I might get some flack for saying this... could it be that we are partially to blame too? Us, the community? Because it was easy to get angry at the giant whale upvoting himself?
At the expense of committing whataboutism, how could be so angry about that, and at the same time justify all the other ones that do it with the same intensity mind you, but do it "secretly".
Is the system of incentives broken? Of course it is. Should we be pushing for a change? Maybe, the answer is there, I don't know. But what I do know is that this, this little war, has not helped anyone be any happier. It's lead to many minnows getting nuked, many others just losing faith and quitting.
I don't want that, you don't either. So why are we continuing the battle 9 months later. Can we try a different approach? Should we try one? I know what some might say, some might point out that truces have been offered before. First it was Bernie, then Fulltimegeek, but they did not last long enough. Let's attempt however, to stop throwing blame around. Let's forget who threw the first rock, and lets talk about what we could do moving forward, what we should do moving forward.
Maybe to my own detriment I believe in voluntaryism as an ethical way forward. I love the idea of being selfless, of charities, but not at the cost of forcing it (it makes no sense). How could I demand someone to be charitable? Does that even make sense? - Maybe, the right approach is to show that person the benefits of being charitable, and then leave it up to them.
Maybe my particular position on the matter might no be too relevant to @haejin, but then again, I'm sure no one ever asked him either. Maybe, if he felt like the community was more accepting of him, more respectful, he would feel inspired to support others. But, not because we force him, no, that's the problem we have right now, but because when he does so, when he upvotes another user, when he makes a donation for someone in need for a surgery as he did recently we celebrate those little acts of kindness too.
Someone might read my words, my little act for civility and say that I'm being tricked, that I've been blinded by his "evil ways" - I don't know, but I do know, that for that person who received those funds for his/her surgery, that act made a difference and that is enough for me to deem it a good act.
So here... this weird open letter, this call for civility is my attempt to make a difference, maybe it will, maybe it won't but I won't say I didn't try.
I'll just close this by saying this: Thank you @fulltimegeek for caring, I know everything you do is because you give a damn, and you inspire many here and I admire that. - And @haejin sorry for not speaking up when you got threatened and dehumanized, I know there is kindness in you, I've seen it.
Maybe today we can walk a different path and leave all this fighting behind for good...
Haejin has always been an easy scapegoat. easy to point the finger and say look at all the self voting. When the majority of whales on this platform have delegated the majority of their stake to bidbots, which takes more out of the reward pool than just self voting, and adds nothing of value. At least haejin has a huge following and posts regularly - posts that could be considered to add value. I know some people think technical analysis is crap - but in that field, the more people who follow you, the more value your analysis has. A thousand nobodies posting technical analysis adds nothing to Steem blockchain. A single account with a huge following posting technical analysis adds value, IMO. So, could haejin have given back more to the community? Of course. But it is beyond hypocritical for many of the big names who go after him to do so considering they rape the reward pool in their own way through bid bot delegations. (obviously, not talking about ftg here).
I'm confident, maybe naively so, that an actual content driven platform can be built on an SMT. However, as we currently have STEEM, it simply can't happen.
I'm not against bidbots per say, because those are people making choices. So to me, it's like arguing against people's right to choose. However, your point is right on, when a whale like freedom delegates millions of SP out to bots, he is just self voting and "nobody" knows he is.
Who can blame them for using bidbots. I was delegating to smartsteem. Why? Well, when the STEEM and SBD prices were way higher, did you ever do a ROI calculation? It was H U G E. There is no other way that I know of to make even close to the return it provided. Since prices are low again though, I've removed my delegation to better support my friends. I didn't put my money into SP though to lose it. It was an investment, and I want it to grow. Good content does get rewarded on here too. If someone isn't being rewarded, they are not doing something right. Either they can't write well, or no one cares about their content enough to support it.
Right, that is what I am saying - the ROI from bidbots is indeed H U G E and is actually greater than self voting. I am not blaming people for making the decision that is in their own financial self interest. I am just calling many of them hypocrites for pointing the finger at Haejin for self-voting his own content, when they were/are taking even more from the reward pool (relative to their SP stake) through delegation to bid bots. Delegating to a bid bot is functionally equivalent to self-voting, only it actually takes even more from the reward pool, and exposes you to no risks of flagging. Haejin is and always has been the easy scapegoat to distract people - it is easier to see his posts with large self votes and conceptualize the amounts, while the ROI from bidbot delegation is more or less invisible. But it still comes from the reward pool. And it adds nothing of value to the blockchain.
It's not entirely invisible. People can look at my wallet and see my smartsteem payouts. Sure, I could create another account, and use it to receive rewards, and then transfer the money back to myself off steemit. Some certainly do it.
The whole point of Steemit was to create a place where individuals could have different opinions and not get censored or banned for them. Many people, myself included, put their own money into the platform as an investment and one of many ways to stick it to the banksters.
I did not come here to control people, and I certainly didn't come here to control how they spend their wealth. It's theirs to do with as they please, and the calls for redistribution and more "fairness" in distribution on Steemit is what's actually killing it for me. If this place turns into mob rule, then it is dead for good.
It's my SP. I will spend it as I like. If I want to spend it on bots or be an ass and upvote my own comments, that's my choice. Sure, my reputation will suffer, but it is my choice, good or bad, to make. No one should be forcing me to do anything or looking for ways to "fairly" take my wealth.
I'm not saying you're suggesting that either, but there have been calls for that type of communism on here in the past. The bottom line though is that there will always be ways to abuse any form of payment on here. That's one of the beautiful things about maximized liberty. A lot of responsibility goes along with it.
There's a very simple solution for the flagging wars between whales. Don't pay attention to them. Besides, I'm not here to convince people of my beliefs or to make money. I'm here to write about my passions in life (private investigation and residential security). Whether people care about those passions or not does not concern me. My only hope is that I help people.
Even if I only help a single person from my content, it was worth the time to share it.
All the other drama? I just don't care.
I can appreciate how you feel. I strongly disagree with this statement however:
Every time whales flag each other, minnows get more rewards. The upvotes whales give themselves draw from the rewards pool that we all draw rewards from. They get the bulk - over 90% - of rewards. When they flag each other they return those rewards to the pool, where minnows then get a larger share than they otherwise would have.
That makes me happy.
Just sayin'...
I would like to add another humanizing fact about @haejin. I was flagged in a discussion by some heavy hitters (compared to me) whose flags disappeared my comments. I am undeterred by flagging, and continued to be flagged for my views.
@haejin, despite my never having followed him, never even once upvoted him, countered all the flags. Most important to me was that my comments became visible, and folks were able to read the discussion the flaggots tried to conceal.
I reckon that was a thoughtful and considerate act that prevented censorship, and enabled free speech on Steemit. In the interest of full disclosure, I still don't follow @haejin, nor have I ever cast a vote for him. This isn't some protest on my part. I'm just not interested in my personal wealth, and so do not spend my attention on the content he produces, which is geared towards investors.
tl;dr Whales flagging each other is good for minnows, because it increases the rewards we receive.
Thanks!
If Haejin flags Fulltimegeek, Fulltimegeek can flag him
back and it will send rewards back to the pool. Or he
could simply reward someone instead of flagging him.
Why war, when you think about it, it makes no sense.
Flagging depletes Mana (SP) that can be used for good.
The exact same advice goes to Haejin, why flag FTG back
when you could upvote one of your comments and profit?
I too have benefited from the actions of both Haejin, and
Fulltimegeek, and it hurts me to see them fight for nothing.
I should note that I also feel I have benefited at least indirectly from @fulltimegeek's SOG initiative. I continue to cite that example of how such moderate delegations enormously improved the benefits of the platform to minnows, without jeopardizing the delegated stake.
Not all large stakeholders only seek their ROI, and @fulltimegeek is one of the large stakeholders that has sought to employ their stake to benefit the community.
You know, that war saw a number of unintended victims and youknowwhojin was right about some of his detractors when he called them psychopaths. They didn't care who got hurt in their zeal to get him and some really nasty shit went down in the process. I'm certain you will find something worthwhile to do with the proceeds and even if you don't; have a good one Meno!
you too brother... thanks for sticking it out man, i appreciate your relentlessness
This is where it gets interesting, we'll see who sticks around and who bails. At times it will seem like I'm gone but my hobby is turning into contracts and besides taking up more of my time, it also means I may temporarily have less material to share freely.
This isn't a good time to cash out so we may as well stay and see what happens. Look forward to reading more of your posts. Saludos!
I'm so glad to see someone taking this position. It is this kind of thinking that build a great future. I fully agree with the things you've said. I've been a follower of @haejin since the time he was making only few dollars per post. He even had a lottery where he picked 5 people (3 based on votes and 2 randomly) and coached them 1 on 1. He used to upvote and reply. Even few weeks ago he had randomly upvoted this post: https://steemit.com/health/@vimukthi/hygiene-alert-you-could-be-flushing-your-toilet-wrong-and-you-ll-need-to-re-think-your-habits-and-where-you-keep-your-toothbrush of mine which he should have randomly come across.
I've also made 2 posts relevant to the topic: https://steemit.com/steemit/@vimukthi/a-philosophical-and-economic-outlook-at-steemit-sbd-and-flagging-and-suggestions-for-a-better-future-based-on-positive
https://steemit.com/steemit/@vimukthi/steemit-feature-request-we-need-to-have-a-dislike-button-separate-from-flags-for-better-online-interactions-according-to-game
They didn't get much attention at all. The votes are mostly from the funds I spent promoting the posts. Basically it all comes down to fixing things at the protocol level. I talked more about this in the comment section here: https://steemit.com/steemit/@lexiconical/flagging-bot-users-arbitrarily-is-like-arresting-those-paying-protection-money-to-the-mob
Thanks a lot for being a sensible and peaceful person on the blockchain. Many people actually left the platform when they were caught in these destructive wars. There was a downvote campaign by bcc, done btu accounts that downvoted people for simply voting for @haejin I think I myself lost over $100. Some might have lost even more.
That's not real community building. Personally I've pretty much stopped voting for @haejin after he stopped posting crypto TA as I personally don't find any value in non-crypto posts (with few exceptions here and there). But I do believe in people's right decide on what is useful for them.
Thanks again for posting!
I don't know what good work Mr H has done, but it's too little, too late. He's made thousands a day from Steemit whilst giving nothing back. Other do it sneakily, but he chose to be public about it. I don't even know how good his posts were, but 99.9% of his votes came from one source plus himself. Just check his comments to see what a nice person he is. I don't think his behaviour justifies threats or racism. He justified flagging me as I liked a satirical image and gave him some pretty small flags. I admire those who persisted with the flagging for the good of Steemit. It's up to the users to deal with any perceived abuse and many whales have opted out of that as they are busy earning from selling votes. I do note that Steem Inc have delegated to some of the efforts to fight it, but I don't think those acted again this guy. You can argue about what people are 'entitled' to do, but their actions harm the image of Steemit.
Well said Meno! as a Voluntaryist, I resonate with this deeply myself. We're all imperfect and we're all here for different reasons too. In real life, people don't get involved in the financial decisions of others. Nor is there this sick voodoo where if I burn 20 dollars I can cause my enemy to lose the same amount of money.
Something about Steem is off we need to create some kind of Voluntaryist manifesto for good Steem behavior, or maybe we can just promote that way of being so that people can choose it if they please. A way to operate on the blockchain static free.
I can see no problems in the philosophy of Voluntaryism. If for whatever reason the blockchain is not cut out for that type of living then maybe the blockchain is not for me. I'd hate to be reprogrammed by someone's flawed experiment if that's what this thing is.
If we can get heavy hitters like H, FTG, and others to promote this ideology for the sake of peace. We could maybe overcome this type of divisiveness. Maybe we could rise up from all of this chaos and create a new way with shining examples that will step forward and lead the way for us all.
none of the drama or discussion of the drama is good for the platform, people need to spend their time and energy posting quality content that is appealing and valuable to people outside of steemit.com
I havent been following the flagging wars and have not put myself in it. I did once mention something to haejin because he flagged a friend's post for having a little swear word in it and only 1. But I regretted it because it was not my place to do so. It is not my war.
But I have also stood up for haejin when I saw he was being kind and sincere. And even though people can think the worse of him, that should not go unnoticed.
Although I had said it is not my war, I do consider myself a part of it because I am part of Steemit. I will not take any violent actions but I will take part in ways to bring in peace. Like I have when defending haejin. I wont push or fight against someone.
And that is why I love your post so much. You come in neutral, feeling for both parties and wanting to offer something so grand in order to help make things better. Nothing better than this. I support you in what you are doing and I want to ask, how can I help? I know that my account is little. Barely anything in it, yet it does not put any value to myself as a human. Nor should anyone be valued that way. I am just a little speck in the eyes of Steemit, but I am much more than that as a human. My wallet does not determine who I am, nor does it you, haejin, fulltimegeek. Which means everyone/anyone can help. Don't feel like you (any person in general) is insignificant to be doing anything.
I have said before to someone on here that is highly against this man, that if we were to show him how to act in kindness, show him how it feels, how nice it is and so on, perhaps then things will change. Fight in that manner, not in a a violent manner as no one will get anywhere with that, it will never end. I haven't gotten any replies on that other than stating that haejin is just a fake or whatever. I find it sad that people are not so willing to try things differently. To fight in peace, nonviolently.
Anyways I can go on and on with this. I don't know everything that went on, goes on. But like I said, I am willing to take part in the same manner as you. Is there any way I can help?
You just did... I hope he reads your sentiments, I hope Fulltime does too... :)
I applaud your position here @meno, to try and understand the flag wars and be proactive enough to suggest a round table of sorts. I also agree that anyone being pushed to change will probably never change; it's a matter of saving face perhaps. I too do not know the answer here, and have chosen to not be vocal about the whole thing, except in supporting @friendsofgondor, a healing account for those SOG's who were once "supported" by fulltimegeek. Yes, I know he still supports them, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying here. I'm also glad to see that haejin helped someone in need; no one is all bad, that I do know. I also know that fulltimegeek is an amazing supporter of all things good here, but as you said, certainly not perfect. No one is, right? And that's probably your answer right there I think :)
I loved that initiative.. i think a lot of leaders were born in those days... One day, maybe it will come back!
Maybe the stewards can come back after the flag war stops.. now, that would be amazing.
Wouldn't that be nice! Along with the stewards too :) My fingers are crossed with yours :)
I've been upvoted and supported by both haejin (on his supposed second account starjuno which i don't know if it is his second account or not tbh) and FTG (I was part of the people that his fulltimearmy was supporting) , i'm not taking sides in this war, i am of the same opinion you are, and i think they should stop throwing insults and rocks at each other, get on a voice chat, speak calmly with each other and that is it... there is no point in creating enemies and there is no pointing at accusing, flaming, or just throwing insults at each other... Really, if i wanted to watch a drama show i would go watch big brother or real housewives of blabla or something like that...
TBH if we could get haejin, FTG, bernie on the same team i see no way this blockchain could end! There would be 0 chance!!
You can donate it to me :P JK i hear familyprotection is always in the need for some help... and if for some reason you want to support STEEM just burn the profit...
Family protection is a good idea... Honestly if 3-4 whales got together and worked on getting development happening for investment to come steem would be unstoppable.
I really think so.
I see your point @meno, and I agree that perhaps the best way to proceed with this issue is to have an open conversation, whether through posts or discord, and have both parties share their arguments (not insults) and justify their actions in an objective way. It is clear FTG is a community guy who only wants the best for steem, and I am sure haejin would love to have the opportunity and explain the conflict from his point of view.
Trust me, probably every steemian who is a few months old have an opinion about the flag wars, but most decide to remain in silence out of the risk of being destroyed with flags.
I would like to bring again something that I mentioned in one of your recent posts
I saw that reply, sorry I didn't comment... but you are very correct my friend.
I just want to say... I tried... at least that. You know.. maybe i just screamed into the void.
This is not a Haejin vs Fulltimegeek.
This is Haejin vs Steem
From steemd I can see that rancho started doing most of his buys in late may/mid june 2017. He's made a fraction of the initial investment back in post rewards.
Honestly I don't see what the big deal is. I'm presuming they weren't buying when the prices were in the single digits of cents, or they would have been using that account earlier.
Not many people have the balls to go into something like this for a million+. The fact that other people were selling in order for them to accumulate this makes this all just a big joke to me.
I have more of an issue with the chosen few who got their stake without having to put any money in. Just be a part of the inner circle of the BTS/Steemit/EOS mega circle-jerkers' club and they'll probably throw you a few bones is how these coins seem to operate.
Dudes spent over a million to get back about 300,000 when they easily could have just kept it liquid and made 10 million at the peak, or several million before or after that point in time.
And I don't want to point out the obvious, but everyone who runs a bot voting service has a motive to shame self-voting, even though it's a perfectly acceptable use of stake.
You might as well say it's whales vs. Steem. @haejin is just using the same tools all the whales have been since they mined their stakes before Steemit was public. Whether @haejin gets 5% of rewards, or the other whales keep it for themselves, it doesn't get to us minnows, who receive ~1% of rewards.
I consider @haejin's selfvoting great for Steem, because if his depriving the other whales of 5% of their take from their circlejerks, selfvotes, and votebots/delegation fees, doesn't prompt change in how rewards are allocated, then nothing will.
@haejin isn't the problem. The concentration of rewards in the accounts that already have the most stake is. The problem is stake-weighting, and that degrades society by enabling money to control speech on Steemit, just like it always has, and now more than ever, in the real world.
Rewards don't need to be stake-weighted to have all the good benefits they do, such as encouraging creators of good content. 1a1v will do that just fine. The only thing stake-weighting does is make profiteering more attractive than investment.
SOC (SMTs, Oracles, and Communities), when and if they arrive, will make it possible for communities to enable 1a1v, as well as allow the extant stake-weighting profiteering model Steem has.
Which do you think will be adopted by minnows more, when SOC makes it possible to choose?
I'm looking forward to the end of profiteering on Steemit. I bet retention will increase by orders of magnitude in those communities that prevent profiteering by the wealthy.
We'll see.
Communities is surely going to be very useful for everyone. I've seen that most people tend to stick with authors they know and since early adopters have lots of STEEM with them, even out of the quality content creators, the older accounts are getting most of the rewards. There is nothing wrong with their earnings. It's just an uphill battle for a new account to gain visibility.
Or is it?
Or is it a flawed system that needs fixing?
Or is it like the early days of prospecting?
The gold was plentiful in them there hills
but those days, they ain't coming back.
Back in my day, people had to pan by hand
with blood sweat and tears. Nowadays it's
the machines doing all the work. Lets just
live and let live people. We don't get all up
in peoples wallets in real life. It's unnatural.
I drafted this reply 3 days ago, but apparently forgot to forgot to hit the button.
@meno why would you not be? You seem to be under the impression that you are undertaking some type of huge risk by talking with Haejin. You're not. The only people who ever took part in silencing opposing viewpoints with flags (with regard to this debate) were bernie and haejin. Bernie has not posted about this for three months and since Haejin is unlikely to downvote you unless you oppose his view, I think you're pretty safe.
When I think about how this could end, I think it will take more people willing to speak up, regardless of consequences, and point out when things are uncalled for. I think this whole thing has been perpetuated by the utter indifference of the Steem population in general.
The idea that voting is somehow an act of war is also alien to me. We as Steem holders are expected to collectively assess the value of the content here. If you are voting (whether upvote or downvote) based on an assessment of the post, then you are acting in accordance with the design of Steem. If you are endorsing or criticizing a post or groups of posts, you are also acting within the design of Steem. I agree that respectful discord goes much much further than hateful banter which is why I am confused by your willingness to engage with the biggest employer of such tactics in the past 3 months while simultaneously expressing fear of those who oppose him. Your perception is unfounded in reality.
In theory you are 💯 on this. There should be no reason why I should self censor. However in practice as you pointed out, the emotional reactions to these conversations have lead to uncalled for flags and insults.
Since I would be compromising @helpie with my actions, I feel it necessary to be that careful.
Yeah, but not from anybody still involved in the conversation, with the exception of haejin. It is similar to arguing against segregation while simultaneously claiming victimhood for the only individual actively supporting it. The rest of us have either never engaged in such activities or have long since moved on from them.