So, if you follow my blog you know that I was doing a no bot week to test out a couple of things.
First of all, I wanted to see my average number of rewards standing on my own two legs and without promoting the posts at all.
I'm happy to say that with no botting my average votes per post is a respectable $14
This isn't much, but it is a lot more than when I first started, that one is a given.
On the other hand, I wanted to see that since bots aren't profitable, and will only break even if lucky, if I could power up faster by not using bots at all.
I would also see if botting would impact my follows and if it could hinder my growth.
Let's take a step at a time and look at all of these factors.
My Organic Votes: A Respectable $14... but!
So, first things first, I was curious to know how would my posts do if I was to not use any bot or paid promotion at all.
I saw that all my posts would reach anywhere from between $13 to $15, but there's a catch.
The bulk of my votes was coming from a SINGLE user.
So, I have to thank @rok-sivante for all of his support.
He is truly my number one fan and I'm grateful for having someone who is so supportive. He has voted in every post of mine and he's a pretty cool guy too.
Hats off to you mate.
In second place, there's @therealwolf with 6.7% - so you can see the huge difference.
This is a bit worriesome for me... having such a HUGE slice of my votes coming from a single user is something I have to consider.
What if he never came back?
I would lose 66% of my post value, and that is A LOT!
What About Overall Profit?
Well, when I was botting only the SP part was profit, the rest had to be used in its entirety to keep the circle going.
This meant that only a small part of the payout would grow my account.
On the other hand, my payouts diminished by a ton, but now I could power up with both the SP and SBD part of the rewards.
The results were... not very good. I was making more on the SP part of the rewards before than I made this week with both parts combined.
So, the profit is better with bots, probably because since visibility is raised I get more "passerby" votes.
What About Followers and Growing?
As far as followers are concerned, this was the metric that seemed the least affected.
However, after considering the numbers and looking at the charts...
...surprise, surprise!
I was growing more when botting than I am right now.
This was really disappointed... I really wanted at least one metric not to be influenced by this experiment, but every single one is - and to the negative.
In Conclusion:
To sum everything up.
Botting increases your profit, your follower growth rate and the SP values of your account.
Not botting is way more comfortable for me, but I'm losing a lot by not doing it.
My "circle" funds are low, so I have to start building them again, but I'm going back to botting for the moment.
I wanted to leave it, but my content is high quality, and if people like us don't use the bots, they will be used only by exploiters and low effort posters, therefore filling the hot and trending pages with bullshit.
It isn't perfect, and I tried, but...
...Bot Away.
Cheers!
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Great content , This post was really interesting , As I have never used a bot but also I don't have the time right now to post content worthy of promotion . When i can i will try it though , As for now I'll stay with the occasional posts that I have time for , Thanks again for good post
Do what makes sense to you at all times :)
Cheers
You got a 10% upvote from santana33, courtesy of @santana33. If you want to support our project please click on the link below;
hahahha,
P.S.: With love "Heavy hands"
Heavy Hands, Heavy Bags, you name it.
You're gonna be a whale soon :P
Lol! this cracked me up. Throws some peanuts.
I'm so glad I discovered bots within my first few days on here. By my third post I was using them, and I credit my getting off to a fast start to that.
Since I've not ever been here at a time before the bot dominance began, there has never seemed anything wrong with them to me. I just look at it as paying for advertising while I grow my follower base.
When I was on FB I saw how boosting posts changed performance of pages (like 3k followers with very little engagement after 2 years without boosting, or 3k highly engaged followers after 3 months with boosting!). So as soon as I found this "boosting" method on here I knew it was just a part of succeeding on the platform.
Yeap... works kind of like that!
Thanks for another great comment.
Cheers
Great Info, plus if you ever get in the "Stacking Way" there is always Old Reliable, STAX ;) I'm getting over $10 a day AVERAGE from Stax. One vote per day, tops. It's a good gig ;)
...on the Undie Acct, btw ;)
Can't really say STAX loves "ME"... She loves
The BIG D!
Delegation, you pervs :P
How much delegation for that TIER?
LOL Not Quite double what you have earned already...
2500 SP for the GOLD tier. I was the first Paying GOLD Member of Stax's Crew. The tiers changed and I was Silver for a little bit, but upgraded as soon as I could. Lemme fetch the levels, I just saw them recently... well, can't find it but:
GOLD = 2500 SP Deli 40% UV = ~$10
SILVER = 1000 Deli 20% UV = ~$5
I think there are also
500 SP
250 SP
100 SP
50 SP
and entry level is just up-voting all STAX Posts @ 100% for a 1% UV
But you have to be posting to the SSG Tag and get a nomination.
From a member, which would be me, or someone else. But the
participation is Key.
Money brings money, man. No free lunches.
what is this STAX? a service of some kind? can you elaborate please
SHE is our Community Bot. I've been with her since Day 1 ;)
See my replies above, but it's a "Member's Only" deal.
For the Silver/Gold Stackers...
EVERYBODY WANT'S SOME... ;)
Honorary member status required @phelimint :P
Good One, tell me another!!! LOL
Phil would have the pitchforks and torches after him, there are about 200 paying members who would string you up right along side of Phil I'm afraid...
There going to string you up man... lol. No honourary members, sorry. And keep her secret man... shhh
I'd like to apply for honorary member status as well @phelimint
Alternatively I may need to learn the "Stacking Way".
U 2 Jr! lol
Never ask, never know :D
Hmmm, how big does one have to be for this to be profitable?
me too!!!!
I am very good at maths.... Immediately I found out how botting works, I knew it was more profitable... I just made a personal decision to ensure the quality of my posts is Good.
Yeah, well, you can always hope you get proven wrong like I did :P
Hmmm, exactly. Besides, bots can be a little hazardous and they sometimes give out less than what you supposed they'd give. This would be something I'd need to write down. What profits did I get from which bots and at what time/amount? It's all way too complicated, but it's necessary for getting it down to a science. It's money lost or earned, after all.
Or you could just use SmartSteem and buy votes from SmartMarket, which give you 2-2.5X the sbd you paid in plus more votes, instead of one big from a bot and the annoying comment.
Just leaving some spam over here, I am sure Max doesn't mind :P
SmartMarket now gives as a maximum 2.2x..... You get to lose some profits for fun :3
I still see in the website the 2.5x indicator, it depends on what time after posting you make the upvote submission.
But is true that it does not matter that much since you are looking for promotion and not that much into profit.
To profit either delegate or sell your votes.
I like that smartsteem gives a lot of small votes instead of one huge one, but you also lose a small amount on every transaction since their return doesn't cover the "curation cut" completely. So it's a dead end game in that regard. And the bid-bot is even worse in their returns from my experience. I used it once by accident (smartsteem vs. smartmarket ... and I chose the wrong one for my intentions) ... so I won't do that again.
I'm one of their top-rated whitelisted users, but I'm not real crazy about their arrangements. If and when there are other options, I use them instead. Which is disappointing. Maybe for everyone. I wish they gave a better ROI consistently. At least enough to cover the curation percentage. I'd use them all the time if they'd just make that adjustment. But losing "a little something" on every transaction doesn't make good sense to me.
I agree with you. Please see my reply to another comment on this same thread.
It would be interesting to see if it matters whether you spend enough to promote to Trending page or only reach the Hot page. Is it still worth it to invest in getting high on the Hot list.
Aaah so I just read this article and it kind of contradicts what I had noticed and commented on in your more recent article here. I might try this for myself at least for a time. So what I understand is that you will most likely stay even or lose a little SBD when you use bid bots, but the SP you collect will be profit.
Times have changed... it's way less profitable now... this post was before bots ran dry and had to decrease profitability. I don't bot at all now, don't even need an experiment.
@spiritualmax do you have any idea why rewards are changing within the time? I've used bots several times and I've noticed that within each day estimated reward seem to pretty much always drop. Example:
Noone downvoted this post and yet my predicted rewards in SBD went down from 78sbd do 71sbd. Which is insane.
I thought that rewards may drop once price of steem and SBD is also dropping. But right now both STEEM and SBD increased their value but my rewards seem to be lower than just a day ago.
I would appreciate if you could share your thoughts. It seem that whenever value of steem and sbd is changing, it affect our rewards negatively.
Yours
Piotr
Its STEEM price going down that makes that happen.
so it depends on both? steem and sbd?
SBD price too.
i'm very sorry for such a late reply. have been away for several days but Im back now :)
just wanted to thank you for your previous comment
Good to know. So the difference between the crypto boom in December and now is significant. Interesting stuff. I feel like three months here is 3 years anywhere else with how fast stuff changes.
When I started reading, I really hoped the bots would lose...
But your experiment proves what I was afraid of... using the bots is more profitable in every way.
That's the dilemma that is bothering me every day again... If you create quality content - as you do - I think it deserves to be read. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve this is by using the bots. :0(
Have you ever calculated how much you lose by using the bots? I started by keeping track in a spreadsheet, but I stopped, because the numbers were higher than I wanted to know...
I didn't, but Ill lose more if I dont use them :(
Looking at what is happening now with @simplymike and what you have said about the blacklisting. Now putting myself to risk. On a moral stance, I would say this is the same thing which happens in everything which is wrong with society. We have now people fighting with people over votes. The issue is with the bots, You have to wonder why all the time is spent downvoting the user, and not the bot to reduce its power and the attractiveness of using one.
Don't attack the nieghbour attack the invading bot.
Well... the community enabled them to appear, so it seems the majority do want them here. Having that in mind, we can only hope to create better ones.
So in short - "when in Rome..."
I'm not surprised by your results as they simply verify what I'd already seen on my own account in a more subjective "this is what I think is happening" kinda way. Good to see that validated with hard data, but not a surprise.
Yeah, unfortunately for me... really wanted to ditch the buggers.
You're addicted to buggery :)
LMAO!!!
Well, if bots are buggery, they're some needed buggery for me too, lol. I get ~$20 per post with bots and ~$0.74 per post without bots. ^^' I'd miss out on a ton of SP and views without them.
It was an expected outcome Max. In the time that i have started boosting my content i have been able to increase my SP almost double of the time if I had waited for that elusive curie or ocd vote.
I get a whale vote once in a blue moon except maybe from @surpassinggoogle who does vote for some of my content but he is spread far too thin in the Communities he supports to really make a huge difference in my growth.
I've kept a tracker of profits and losses from bid bots and majority of the time I break even or make a very small profit but the SP rewards are huge so in reality I'm better off botting as well.
It does mean that I will not get that elusive curie vote but my growth will be a lot faster.
Combining good quality content and boasting visibility with bots is the way to go. Besides it takes away some space for shit posters to buy into services although I often observe they don't care about operating at a loss as long as they keep boosting their low quality stuff and hope some smuck will be looking at the trending page and be awed by their high payout value and think the shit poster is doing good and upvote the content.
MI indeed puts it in perspective
Yeap, a fine comment, but @moneyinfant really summed up everything perfectly with his.
So ruthless!
So, Curie only votes for people who don't use bots? Or what's the deal here?
Well when they see you constantly getting $10 or more it really lowers your chances.
Any new post that is at $10 before they are submitted is no longer eligible to be curied.
Ooooooh. :( Well, I won't be curied! I'm getting my posts to at least $15 (and the latest ones above $20) to get some optimal SP. I wonder what alternatives there are. But no matter. I'll just grow at a natural rhythm meanwhile :) I'm still quite eager to do the long-term blogging marathon into success.
OCD is still an option though.
What is OCD? (apart from a psychological disorder)
OCD is a curation guild like Curie that finds exceptional posts and rewards them.
They tend to vote on articles with psychological content / self-development / self-improvement / inspirational / motivational, etc.
@maverickinvictus do you have any idea why rewards are changing within the time? I've used bots several times and I've noticed that within each day estimated reward seem to pretty much always drop. Example:
Noone downvoted this post and yet my predicted rewards in SBD went down from 78sbd do 71sbd. Which is insane.
I thought that rewards may drop once price of steem and SBD is also dropping. But right now both STEEM and SBD increased their value but my rewards seem to be lower than just a day ago.
I would appreciate if you could share your thoughts. It seem that whenever value of steem and sbd is changing, it affect our rewards negatively.
Yours
Piotr
Kudos! I did a similar experiment on a much less grand scale and without as much data but I came to the same conclusions. Bots are like the force, use the force. What is the best amount to spend on the bots or is more always better?
Voting bots more is better, bid bots less is better. the minimum buy in gets you the most income in bid bots.
good to know ;)
Due to stubborness I shall continue to refrain from bot-riding and other practices that gets one ahead.
Your results are pretty much what I expected - but I choose not to become part of the problem...
Thanks.
A noble thing to do man.
:)
When I use bots, I try to get the vote right after I post which usually makes it profitable. The problem I noticed is that over the 7 days it takes for payout, the vote value drops, drops and drops some more. One of my post went from $33 to 21 within the span of waiting for payout which started as a little profit but ended as a loss. It happens naturally somehow. Has anyone else experienced this and/or know what causes such draining of the reward?
Yes, I experience that as well, although I dont know the underlying cause... I think it is other posts from that same day getting more upvotes than yours which is just stable.
Then your relative rewards distribution lowers.
Yup, I figured that it had something to do with the reward pool and the platforms overall voting activity, but I wasn't sure. I guess it's safe to assume that there's no way around it. It sucks because it hit fairly hard the last time it happened to me.
The only way around it is to get more votes coming later and less at the beggining :P
This is something which I just tried to explain. I don't think, that's a good idea to fight everybody who uses a bot, but to use them to our advantage instead and promote quality. In the end, they're our funds and we should be free to use them however we please.
Yeah, each one should really think and decide according to what they believe is fair and right, others need to respect it unless there's clear abuse going on.
i am follwoing you and read your case study in detail, what i understand is use of bot is must if you want to get notice your work. Can you please now tell which bots are good and to be use.
Well, depends on your budget, how much are you planning to spend?
Any indication of how it impacted the follower curation rewards? Do the bots absorb the whole piece of their upvotes reward or does it get spread out among the commenters?
Bots absorb the rewards when after the 20 minutes, but if you do it before the curation goes to you.
Another great post, I like the short and simple ones a lot. I have came to the same conclusion myself about bots. I try not to use them on every single post, however I feel like I am missing out on extra SP when I do not do this. So I do use them on my posts that I feel have the highest quality, like you said this increases visibility.
As the previous commenter said: "In Rome be Roman"
Interesting post, thanks for the insights. I'm here since January and haven't tried any bots by myself yet (how are they working btw?), but of course I'm also considering. So - it's worth a try?
Yeah, trying doesn't hurt. They have their instructions on their steemit page.
You did gain at least one follower. Tho my addition would have happened anyway.
Just an opinion. The one who gains most from the bot is the bot owner. If the bot was not profitable, people would not program them.
Bots once programmed require no time or any more effort from the programmer, the possibility arises where the bots will be taking more from the platform then the whales.
You also then have the situation where one person makes 25 bots and all use the same program working under alternative identities.
What would happen if the use of bots for votes was prohibited? and may result in loss or confiscation of account. Where there is so much controversy over the use of bots and their value, as a bot does not take the quality of a vote into account.
People are awakening to the fact quality matters now more than ever, plenty of bot owners already started blacklisting people.
Would it be possible to approach @ned If I remember right he has the power within the Steemit platform, this would depend on how many followers you got to support a no bot platform. Myself, I am of a moral belief that the buying of votes always brings a confliction of interest between the personal and the community. More often at the expense of a community.
Ned shouldnt do anything to regulate a thing here... this is decentralized and no one has the authority or even should.
We are at odds here again. I would like to debate it further, tho I see you are firm in your belief, I do not want to step on your toes so to speak. More just to dance a few words with you. On the result of total decentralization.
Oh I'm always open to discussion man, you won't step on my toes... the most that can happen is that I dont change my mind. Other than that I think that everyone should have their opinion...
Excellent Simple breakdown to understanding bots by your experience. Sounds evident to me. Yet one would wish that using bots to build enough follower support so that your post start going hot organically here and there with out bot help. Question..at this point does some one like @adsactly use bots on their main account still, after they trend like they do? And how many of the trenders still use bots?
Very informative post @spiritualmax
Those don't, as their vote is enough to put it on trending.
@rok-sivante, wow... You are one with a generous heart, it is people like you that motivates others that post creative and original content to remain at steemit. @therealwolf thanks to you too. @spiritualmax thanks too, you often encourage me by always visiting my blog. But as for the bot stuff, well it will favour you because you have some reasonable amount of upvote already before using the bot, unlike someone that does not get any upvote and uses the bot, such person is gaining little or nothing.
Well, in case of a doubt, people should do the experiment themselves to see in their case what makes more sense!
I really hope bots get banned.... This platform is supposed to be about people creating content and other people interacting with it. Until bots are banned, Steemit is not really an authentic decentralized social network site. Wait till McDonalds or Coca-Cola starts paying bots, the trending page will become corporate shit over night...
My friend, by the time coca cola and mcdonalds would reach this place, we would already be too rich to care... we'd build a new one :D
True they'd probably start their own crypto currency first lol
Every Noob's and Expert LOL
:P
I don't have that generous followers.. So I pump up with bots..
The numbers of my payouts are just reinvested..
And the SP sticks, so that part is growth. It works...
Yes, I suspected that this might have been the outcome. It is a bit disappointing. I also have a circle of posts going around for botting, but it really puts the pressure on to write posts that are worth the bot.
I mean 4000... dammit.
I wear glasses, so potentially you might have 8000!
Holy... didn't consider that one!
Well, I always feel the pressure to write good stuff... I feel 2000 eyes on my back :D
A great experiment. I waited for the results and now I can conclude. Although personally I am far from your scale, but I was not sure about using botting. Now I have drawn some conclusions. It turned out informatively
Thank you
No problem, if you ever have doubts, try this experiment yourself, it will make you at least see what your rewards are without any help.
Bot or Not?
Kind of disappointing to hear this indeed but pretty much what I expected.
Thanks for sharing this experiment with us though. I honestly feel that things have changed a lot, not necessarily the last week, but perhaps the last month. I am getting less and less traction myself although I started posting more. It's harder and harder to get noticed these days.
Nevertheless, I will keep doing what feels good to me and that still means no bots. If using bots is what feels best to you, you should definitely take that road.
See you in the near future,
Vicente
We'll definitely keep in touch, Ill be back to botting now :P
In fact, I'm making one myself, care to delegate? :P
If there's one thing this post taught me....
It's that I should follow Rok Sivante.
What's up buddy?
Seriously though..... I'm surprised at the results. I haven't botted in a long time because it just doesn't seem like you get a good return on your investment when you do it. You, however, are saying that you do get a good return on your investment?
It looks like you've made pretty good money this week based on your author awards so far.....
Wait a minute did you join in December of 2017 and you already are ranked 61 with 2,000 followers?
I've never heard of you before today but I'm going to start watching how things work.
Yeah, I joined 2 months and a half ago. grew like a rocket... I botted up until this week. And bots dont get you a return, but what I found out with this post is that the visibility they bring you ends up compensating the slight loss you get with using them.
Makes sense?
Thanks, you're a rep 65 so you're a "Lord" in my book :D
Well, I usually tell people it takes time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to take you that long.
Especially now that Im gonna be back to botting...lol
Love that you did this test and I honestly supspected the same. It is also why I can't blame or yell at people using bots as it is a service everyone can use and yes pay for. Until Steemit comes up with better ways it just seems like boting is required if you really want to gain traction and get ahead. I do hate saying that honestly but it is what it is for now.
Yeap, same... but there's no going back now...
Thanks for sharing these results Max. I did my own mini experiment and found the same thing. It's better to bot...for now.
cheers
Anj xx
PS I'm on your list of most weighty voters. You're not on mine, mr mofo!! XD
God dammit! Need to get there.... maybe you're votes are well distributed though :P what's the last palce percentage?
Yes, that'd be lovely :D No sign of you anywhere :*(
Aaah so I may have the same percentage as you and not appear there.... :P
Found it eventually, after ages and ages of scrolling down the page :P
OOOOOooooooh!!! NOICE! What tool is that?
Plus, I have so many people to upvote, you can look at my VP to see Im not greedy xD But will try to up my game.
Ah spreading yourself thinly. If it's working for you, then why not.
It's http://steem.loadsup.net/upvoters/
Great app. It helps me decide where I'm voting that day :P. You can arrange the people by weight, quantity or average SP. Lets you know who your mates are :D
Enjoy
Anj x
hahah possibly :P
Thanks!!!
Nothing from Max though :P
Lol. It's a great app isn't it! But a little bit heartbreaking at times too :*(
Confirmed
I think it also really helps with reputation growth as well. I think that will probably help long term as well. I have been botting occasionally recently and am strongly considering doing it regularly.
Yeah go for it man! You do well... else Ill catch you rep wise :P
Some bots persistently persuade you buy their bots only for them to give you a shitty low vote, you will be lucky to break even! Mostly i use one consistently @boomerang and ive seen a difference in my steem power.
Cool, got to grow that SP mate!
What would you see as kind of "ideal" amount for botting your content? And which bots are ok to use? I once heard only the ones which do max of 3.5 days after posting?
Maybe would be a good next post for you :)
Yeap, bot right after you publish, the amount is whatever you feel your post is worth promoting at
This is quite pretty helpful Rukka! Then botting is !
Yeap, steem on!
I guess this post was promoted by bots :P
Overall, yeah - your account is growing much faster when using bots.
Yes, thanks to @postpromoter.
Interesting analysis. I really can't afford anything other than Smartmarket now, but I will have to keep this analysis in mind as I increase my cashflow.
Yeap, go right ahead, and Ill even help you on the cashflow part with @cryptoempire :P
Depinds, Sometimes is better to use bots, to be recognize by others
Yeap!
Thanks
Hold on a second, you shouldn't include the SP you got from the botting in your calculations. That's obviously going to be higher no matter how you slice it. These are the two scenarios that warrant comparison for SP use:
Everything also depends on the prices. If the prices go down, you may even have lost on bot when you compare to the alternative of using the money spent on bots to directly convert to SP instead.
This comparison would be very interesting to see.
If sbd from botting covers bot's costs, then if SP from botting is superior than SP + SBD without botting... its solved!
I see. So I guess this round that was true.
Very informative @spiritualmax.. Simple yet clear explanation.. It isn't perfect but....bots away! I liked that part... Thanks
Glad you liked the experiment!
Cheers!
As a beginner I find it hard for me to do the bot thing. Hope I can soon! That's reality of life..
I was gonna comment..but my bot decided not to
You got a 16.10% upvote from @postpromoter courtesy of @postpromoter!
Want to promote your posts too? Check out the Steem Bot Tracker website for more info. If you would like to support the development of @postpromoter and the bot tracker please vote for @yabapmatt for witness!
Nice post ....
Thanks for sharing
Huhu, i should be using bots too but I stopped for a while now. I will start again soon...
Yeap, dont leave those rewards on the table :D
Congratulations! You were nominated for a TROPHY TOKEN award HERE by @simplymike Please comment your Bitshares address to receive your reward! You can also contact us on Discord @Trophy-Token. Thank you for being a great Steemian!
@simplymike what's this man? :D
Just a little gesture of appreciation
Thanks ;)
I should be thanking you for all your awesome content :0)
P.S.: btw, it’s Mrs. Man ;0P
Why Mike then? :P
Foreigners always pronounce my name as mikey, so I thought I’d save them the trouble. Somebody once posted a fragment of a film (road trip? Euro trip?) that was a perfect example, but I can’t seem to find it.
Another reason is that, before I came to steemit, I earned good money through marketing. I didn’t pay taxes, so at one point I decided it wasn’t safe to keep
On using my own name, so I switched to a name that was very common in Belgium. My real name is Mieke, so Mike wasn’t very far from the truth, but far enough to keep the IRS off my back.
In the pretty sexist world of marketing, it’s always an advantage if people think you’re a guy. Since I origlnally signed up for SteemIt to promote my biz, I kept the name :0)
Thanks for sharing! A link to your post was included in the Steem.center wiki article about Upvotes Bots. Thanks and good luck again!