We had a great debate tonight.
RESOLUTION: Vaccines are safe and people are morally obligated to take them.
DEBATERS:
Luke Van de Voorde: Affirmative
Graham Smith: Negative
Moderator: Shane Radliff
Enjoy! Please vote on who you think made the best argument HERE!
~KafkA
Graham Smith is a Voluntaryist activist, creator, and peaceful parent residing in Niigata City, Japan. Graham runs the "Voluntary Japan" online initiative with a presence here on Steem, as well as Facebook and Twitter. (Hit me up so I can stop talking about myself in the third person!)
The government has paid out over 3 BILLION in compensation for vaccine injuries, through the NVICP. So is there an argument that vaccines are completely safe and effective? I'm not sure how such an argument can exist in light of those payments. Now consider that that court system is adversarial and most cases get tossed. Now consider that it's estimated that only 10% of vaccine injuries are ever reported.
Three years ago a senior researcher at the CDC admitted that they omitted statistically significant data that linked MMR to autism. A recent ruling connected vaccines with SIDS. My own child is vaccine injured. You may think vaccines are safe until it happens to your own child.
I blindly bought into it too. My son paid for my ignorance.
This is the truth. I have government documents showing the risks of vaccines. They are hidden constantly.
Would you be so kind as to share said government documents?
Try the vaccine insert
All the information on the gov't National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is right here: https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html
Compensation data here: https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/index.html
There is a PDF link you can click on on top of the page, current petitioner awards: $3,468,916,800.58 --when you add in legal fees it's over $3.7 billion as of August 2017.
@jerrydb123
I've always wondered why the people "for" vaccines are so "for" everyone having to get them? If their arguments are true then they could be surrounded by sick, unvaccinated people and they would be safe and sound right? I mean are they that worried about being alone or what? Anyway to each his own.................
It's because they don't care about ruining the health of the public at large to 'protect' a minute percentage of sick people.
Their arguments usually start with 'what if?'. That is no way to protect the health of the populace.
I am sure that is on the video somewhere, but well, if you have NEVER heard the basic reasons:
A) Because they care about the health of other
B) Because there are people aho cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason, always or temporary. You are protecting them if there isn't a horde of sick people around.
Those reasons aren't good enough for me to make something "mandatory" upon everyone. Some people know how the body works and how to take care of it not needing vaccines in the first place do to optimal working immune system within their body. Most destroy their immune systems over time through products and diet. I can't see trusting some company who produces a product over seas most likely that skips the bodies natural order of filtering by injecting said product directly into ones blood system. Hell, you can't even sue em'. I'm not arguing with you and the comment isn't directed towards you just ranting off the top of my head. I do appreciate your comment and answer though. I suggest everyone with netfix watch "Vaxxed". I digress...............
Agreed.
The pro-mandatory vaccination believers are living in a past that never existed. They believe that vaccines saved humanity without actually doing the research to confirm or disprove their beliefs. They repeatedly recycle the same arguments without checking their facts.
Safer, cheaper, and more effective technologies have long since rendered whatever benefit vaccines might have ever provided obsolete. Vaccines are too dangerous, too expensive, and have been proven time and again to be less effective than natural immunity.
I'm sorry to hear about your son and I know of many more vaccine injured children, some of which are carer dependent adults now. Some received compensation, some didn't. Vaccine injuries are known to happen frequently for over 60 years! Books on explaining how vaccines work and why there are injuries are out on Amazon.com and have been available as long as I studied about alternative health. I will not understand how ANY mother or father who loves their child will have a needle stuck into this budding life unnecessarily. I have written about this before how my mother didn't allow us to be vaccined, instead she gave us organic food to eat and we were healthy while one of the junk food consuming family with 4 kids had 2 of them come down with polio, one permanently suffering. Why did the other 2 not get polio, why did my brother not get polio although we were playing with these kids?
The above video was produced by the vaccine pushers, that is obvious and they have finally found their way onto Steemit. Welcome and good bye, I say. And if you really love your child and not just say so, inform yourself and forbid the doctors to vaccine this new precious life.
You didn't watch the video, did you? The video is from my YouTube channel and I am anti-mandatory vaccines. You should really examine content before judging it. This was a debate in which I argued the negative.
#thuglife :D
I've replied to another comment from your colleague! The headline of your steemit post says: Vaccines are safe and people are morally obliged to take them. THERE IS NO DEBATE NECESSARY. DO NOT ENGAGE IN CHILDABUSE PEDDLING VACCINES AND STUPID HEADLINES LIKE ON THIS POST TO FURTHER CONFUSE PARENTS. I REPEAT: YOU ARE IN BED WITH THE VACCINE PUSHERS. GET HONEST. PERIOD.
What the hell do you mean by saying you are anti mandatory vaccines? So you condone vaccines as long as they are voluntary? As long as doctors can confuse and frighten young and ignorant parents into getting those vaccines administered to this new budding life they love? What sort of future people do you want in the world? Vaccine damaged ones as we see now?
Ok, @antje, calm down. NO I WON'T!!! STOP THIS CHILDABUSE. PERIOD.
Watch the debate. You will understand my position. I am not disagreeing with you.
aunty will kill u :D kaf :D
I could kiss you. It's so refreshing to see someone that is truly awake.
No. There never was. Also nobody says trains are totally safe. They are still several times safer then cars, so saying its safer to travel by train is true. Same with vaccines, just that the difference is even bigger.
So what you're saying seems to be, that we should make trains mandatory?
Strange how you alwas think that I say things that I never have said.
We should put more resources into bettering the train network instead of ever more roads and cars, if you mean that.
Since when do I ALWAYS think that you say things that you've never have said?
Since when do you have any idea what I think?
I was stretching the analogy to the same extent as the mandatory vaccine argument, to show how ridiculous it is. I could be accused of appeal to ridicule, but it is your analogy. Vaccines are dangerous and even deadly. I'm not going to permanently injure or kill myself, no matter who, or how many, it would help. The train analogy breaks down before it even leaves the station.
And then there's this...your answer to @stillwater above.
You are implying, though I don't expect you know it, that those who choose to refrain from endangering their health are less caring than those who blindly fall in line, and are injected with potentially lethal toxins.
Vaccination does not protect these people, this is one of the common pieces of propaganda. Even if it did, which it doesn't, should I set my child on fire to keep someone else's child warm? How many people is it okay to injure or kill to pretend that we are protecting a few sick people?
This is not a sound or valid argument.
A vaccination is not a toxin O.o
I never wrote I am for mandatory vaccination. That is your "stretching".
Well, it does.
Going shopping is dangerous and even deadly. Still people do it even when they don't have to. Can you believe that?
And smokers! Paying lots of money to kill themselfs and others!!
btw. sitting is lethal. I hope you are not sitting when writing or reading.
That is okay. Nobody requires you to be a police officer or a fire fighter.
No, I am wrong. Actually in most countries it is possible to force people to do fire fighter duties if there is nobody found in another way.
Way to go me, 'stretching' the conversation to address the ONLY currently relevant aspect of this subject. Mandating the use of dangerous, archaic medical technologies is violation of individual natural rights, and international convention, and is, in fact, a war crime.
Well, sorry, it doesn't. All one needs to do is look at the historical timeline. The decline of disease began well before the introduction of vaccination, but neatly correlated with the beginning of widespread use of sanitation, hygiene, and nutrition. The decline of disease even occurred in diseases for which there are no vaccines.
If you want, you can even look at outbreaks CAUSED by vaccination.
No one is trying to force me to shop, smoke, or sit. This is no argument. Also, this is three red herrings, and an appeal to fear.
This is another red herring, with no evidence that, what I suspect you are claiming is, governments, not 'countries' force people to fight fires.
Forcing people to do things against their will is called slavery.
The INITIATION of force is always violence, and if a government uses it against me, I will absolutely resist it with all force possible to defend myself against this violence.
All this is garbage?
WRONG! More research needed by you dear man.
What, specifically, is factually inaccurate about the information presented herein?
If no vaccination - that cost could rise to 3 trillion my friend .
If no vaccination then the cost of vaccine injury could rise to 3 trillion? I'm sure that is not what you meant, I'm guessing you meant the cost of permanent injury from what are called "vaccine preventable diseases" and I completely disagree with you.
Most are harmless. Most are misunderstood. Measles and Chicken pox come to mind first. And everyone likes to whip out polio, too bad polio is a man made disease and very poorly understood.
Mortality was down to almost zero for most of these harmless childhood illnesses before the vaccines came out. And we are learning today about the protection that building immunity naturally to these childhood illnesses provided... cancer being the main one. Chicken pox has been show to protect against the worst gliomas --and guess what is on the rise? Yep. Gliomas. We are messing with mother nature. I wish the best of luck in your studies and research on the topic. Start with Pub Med.
This is an opinion about vaccines worth watching.
This is child abuse on all levels!
It is. So sad.
Yes, you are right @michaelstobiersk! But not only is it sad, it is criminal towards the very recipient (baby) of the vaccines plus another 3 generations should this baby be able to reproduce one day (should be able to!!!). Please inform yourself about the truth.
It's one of the biggest crimes against humanity.
Genocide......
Speciecide?
For sure.
Thank you for this debate! Nice to see civil, intelligent discourse.
Thank you!
Very welcome <3
you're doing some really great work man 👍 💪
Thanks man!
Very interesting to watch. Sadly, Luke is not as lucid a debater as you Graham.
Anyway, Luke discounted the pharmo profits of only 1%(1.5%!?). That many industries would abandon something that would make so little. My guess is (I did no research) that this measly profit is fairly safe. (Not that one year it is 4% and the next year a 2% loss, etc). That it is stable because all the factors are controlled: no threat of sueing, number of recipients is fairly predictable, its a govmt enforced monopoly, etc.
Additionally, if it is similar to pharmaceuticals, a HUGE amount of money is paid out to 'grease the palms' of all the doctors and pushers/sales reps. (And probably the executives all receive nice perks and bonus on top of large salaries.)
In volume, everyone and their DOG would drool over a guaranteed 1.5% profit after all those(up and down the whole ladder) involved had been comfortably 'compensated'.
And it is not at all a comparrison like: you and me investing $100 and getting back $101.50. This is more like walking into/upon an already running machine that just spits out xxx$ every year because all the factors(inputs and outputs) are fairly guaranteed.
A profit of $10/person from 50Million people is $500,000,000. (The people involved may be fewer in USA, but more than one vaccine is administered per person...so, averages the same)
I had another point...but forget. Back to continuing with the questions portion of the video.
Vaccines create customers for life for the Pharmaceutical companies. A good read is Medical Mafia.
So it's all down to dollars here! How very convenient! Childabuse hidden behind $$$$. Wasn't it always like that?
Bill Gates has designed a new operating system to stop people like you in your tracks - It's called Windows 10, and it will distract you so much you will forget what you are doing and line up to be vaccinated and do your part in global depopulation :)
Thanks for the questions, @Mehdibca. They were good ones!
Great live show, you look very energetic and smart then your opponent. He looks like lazy and unenergic one. As I believe, the main motto of the debate is how enthusiastic u are in putting your point, I think here in the case you are excilent .Great job friend, heads of to you, have a great time, thanks.
Thank you, @maya7 :)
Most welcome friend, it is my pleasure and luck to meet you here, thanks for everything. Resteem your post, have a great night friend. Thanks, want to hear more from you.
Another one of your cronies ... What total liers you all are! Stop this childabuse and I shall write it until my keyboard falls apart or I'm banned from Steemit!
Antje. I don't know if you are a troll, or what, but I do not think vaccines are safe and agree that the pharmaceutical industry is engaged in child abuse. If you had watched the content you could have afforded yourself that understanding. If you continue spamming my threads and insulting my commenters I will have to flag you. This is your warning.
Yeah, maybe I'm the worst troll you've ever met in your life! I've got magic powers, you know! ;)
You are lying as I have elaborated already. You are pro-vaccine, but only voluntary. So just a disguised way of recommending vaccines. And well, if you WERE real, you wouldn't oppose me and threaten me in the first place.
I haven't flagged you, somebody else did it already for me. And don't EVER tell ME what to do on Steemit and what not to do or write. And don't even threaten me, because I don't care. THIS POST and ALL THE COMMENTS ON IT ARE ON THE BLOGCHAIN AND CANNOT BE DELETED! My account can also not be deleted. Magic, isn't it?
Just goes to show how much in bed you are with the vaccine pushers if you think I'm spamming. Well, let me tell you, I've already posted this on Facebook and sent the links to people who are most interested in your doing.
And as long as you reply to my comments and threaten me, I will say:
STOP THE VACCINE CHILDABUSE!
@antje
Head Troll and Internet Witch to the Crowned Heads of Europe
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Please stop this harassment.
@kafkanarchy84 (Graham) is one of the STRONGEST voices here on Steemit about the corruption in the vaccine industry.
His child is completely unvaccinated, as are my three children.
He did an interview with me several months back on this topic.
He has been trying to get a pro-vaccine person to do a debate for many months now,
and NOBODY would step up. Probably because they don't have the facts or truth on their side.
So FINALLY a pro-vaccine person stepped up to a debate.
The headline here is the subject of the debate.
Graham argued in the negative.
Many of the people whose comments you are spamming here are also against vaccines.
Your comments do not make any sense.
some battles are not worth fighting! keep your energy for something more productive.. ;-) we know the truth!
You are mistaken. kafkanarchy84 is one of the more ardent defenders of self ownership, including the right to choose NOT to vaccinate, on Steemit.
You have been asked to calm down, nicely.
I have unfollowed and muted you for being irrational.
Good luck.
I am not "pro-vaccine." I agree with you that the vaccine companies are abusing children. Please stop calling me and the people commenting here "cronies," etc.
I didn't tell you what to do, you can flag things you want to, of course.
For the last time, I am not "pushing" vaccines. If you had watched the video you would know that. I am arguing the opposite of that position, and I do not think they are "safe" as you say.
Kudos to Luke for taking the challenge, but he was not the winner.
You are soo wrong about this post that i almost flagged it xD
'You are soo wrong',
Is this a new kind of valid argument?
No, it is a baseless assertion which you follow immediately with an impotent threat and then an appeal to ridicule.
I told you in short! don't wanna to start a debate now but if you insist upvote and i will...
Why would I upvote pointless babbling?
Same
Except I didn't start out with a baseless assertion, a threat, and an appeal to ridicule.
The difference is clear ipso facto.
Don't get me wrong cause i am sick of mainstrem stories how good they are...
Neither you or @antje have actually watched the video, where I argue against the idea that vaccines are "safe" and vehemently oppose them being forced on us. Now you two are spamming this comment thread in ignorance. I suggest actually knowing my position before criticizing it/me.
Resteemed.
Cheers, thank you.
You're welcome.
wow
Great debate
Bill Gates told that we can reduce population by 10% by modern medicine such as vaccines....
The facts do not bear any of this out.
Infographics are not education.
This is promoting vaccine childabuse!
Mandatory anything is a major problem, especially a vaccine that will probably do more harm than good. Most fit in this category, of doing little to no good.
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STOPAnd now they even get a badge of honor here. The mind boggles, but computer programs don't suffer the pains of a vaccine damaged child and its parents.
talks about whats really in the vaccines, if u really want to know...
Thank you, @senistar for your contribution here. You seem to be the only one outside this group of vaccine pushers that want to confuse people with vaccine positive headlines and debates inside the video. Debate indeed. I don't know what to do anymore to get young parents informed about the dangers and absolute NON-BENEFITS of vaccines, so they can stop this childabuse. At least for their own precious baby.
Maybe handing out pamphlets wicth actual ingridients of those death shots, can make them aware of the truth. I think i can also find a link to some documentary i saw about parents of children that have been diagnosed with autism, litterally the day after they received several different vaccinations. Face to face personal conversation, and just give them informed facts, if u do your homework right, they will be shocked, trust me. Id love to help you wherever i can. Would u like that i send u some useful information including some actual vaccines ingridients lists etc? For me personally, once you know that there are so many cases of children getting autism after receiving vaccines wich were probable paid for by bill gates, who is a known population reductionist, wich in the past has made statements like this (see below) . Once u know things like that, one can never un-know that what was learned, and it is my opinion that it is our moral obligation to spread information like that you know. Turning a blind eye is, in my opinion anyway, protecting the purpetrators, and that makes those who look the other way or pretend this is not reality, or thos who actively suppress this information, accomplices to crimes against humanity.... All my firends and aquintances know about vaccines and population reduction. Same with chemtrails, how can some people still live in denial you know, and if i meet one in person whos in denial, i just tell them, well, just look up, and tell m does that look like a cloud? no its lines of persisting nanoparticulates used in geoengineering would be my answer to them. Its so blatantly obvious that people get like cognitive dissonance inside. and online in any discution on facebook where theres a comment about chemtrails and then the troll comes out, i keep it real and i give them facts, it mostly ends their argument just in one comment you know. always give them a link to this page for example: http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/a-climate-engineering-introduction-to-media-and-the-uninformed/
you know what, humans are telepathic and if you provide truth to people, they will feel it, even if they outright dissagree with me, ie had many turn up later to apologize for giving me a hard time about it. well, some pills are tought to swallow. They will thank you for it later in life when they understand you can save their childrens health and wellbeing.
Namaste <3
i made a post with a list of ingridients, just for you, hope it can be of any help. For anything else you think i could help u out with, informations-wise. Have a good day :)
https://steemit.com/vaccines/@sensistar/detailed-list-of-ingredients-of-vaccines-wich-are-pushed-onto-children-and-adults-alike-this-happens-today-and-it-really-c
nice to see ur talk on vaccines and u talk better from others guys @kafkanarchy ur talk really show ur knowledge and ur best confidence and i didnot know about this vaccines matters before see ur videos and know i understand some better from ur talk
I see the producers of this video have come with a lot of friends to give support with uninformed, silly comments. And there is even a benefit pyramid. You've planned that out well, haven't you!
Please moms and dads, inform yourself and don't have your babies vaccined! PLEASE!!!
I am the producer of the video. I argued in the NEGATIVE. Please watch it before making such comments. This is a debate and not a "pro-vaccine" video.
There is NO need to watch this video if the first impression you give on this steemit post is POSITIVE. And there is NO debate necessary! DO NOT ENGAGE IN CHILDABUSE WITH VACCINES. PERIOD!
I really like your post, your post is very useful for me and I will wait for the next post. Have a good day for your friends
It's not about debate it's about truth. The professional debaters can and will debate any side of an argument for a fee. We have to be smart enough to look at the reality of these situations and reject the Madison Avenue explanation that tells us what we just saw isn't true.
This debate was a debate about the truth, and a lot of work went into it. If the only discussion being had is the polarized, violent drivel of the MSM, then we are surely all in trouble.
Props Luke, you won IMO, even with a shitty feed lol
This man expresses in 90 seconds my sentiments exactly, STARTING at the 2 MINUTE 50 SECOND point:
Vaccines are safe. I would like to recommend this link to @freedomvigilante . We both had discussion on Safety of Hep B vaccine in neonates. Maybe this is the most stuitable platform to discuss.
I am not sure what your meaning is here. Do you mean that no further research into the safety of any and all current vaccines is not required or warranted?
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I had this heated debate with one of our bloggers who was saying no vaccine is safe to use and how it poisons people and children. Vaccines reach us after completing after various trial phases.The technology we have now guarantees that the vaccine is in its purest form .Vaccine failures and safety is not just the concern of the vial that is packed. The chain - from the factory to the patient has to be maintained. Inappropriate storage and technique are the most important cases of vaccine related mishaps. Most of the vaccines that we use have be tested, trialed and proven with data of immunization available from upto 20 years. I have to say this is the one of the most extensive followup studies that has been every made.
We should also look at the number of deaths/diablity prevented due to vaccine. But as you rightly pointed out - Safety needs to be mandated and can never be compromised. sometimes, for eg : in cases of ebola and Zika, when the world had no precautionary measures and t - 0 , vaccines were made available immediately - without appropriate trials and results , which did save lifes. For such vaccines, trial results must be awaited. For existing vaccines, the formulation is already there and long term results have been promising aswell. Why try tweaking for better when you already have the best in such cases.
I wouldn't call thousands of uninvestigated injured kids "the best," myself.
Dr. William Thompson, current Senior Scientist at the CDC says:
source.
Sounds like this senior scientist thinks kids are being injured and more testing is needed.
And this is just one of a litany of issues being raised by professionals throughout the medical community.
That is wrong. But I think it might be that we are perceiving what he means wrongly. When the medications and vaccines are first introduced , there are already some list of side affects thatare already known. This is mainly based on animal trials and human trials- humans who have voluntereed. There is no way what effects it might have on children or how they might response- as children are not approved by ethical commitee to be tested upon. And every human has a different response to the vaccine provided- pharmacogenetics.
Basically what i am trying to say is vaccines are safe but doesnt mean that further safety standards improvmenet is not required. If someone is doing it for testing purpose- then it is wrong. We and our children are not guineapigs.
He directly stated on tape that he committed fraud. Saying "That is wrong" is not an argument.
Totally agree.
What to make sure I am clear: Flagged because I toltally disagree
Unfollowed and muted for abuse.
Hello. Flags here on the platform usually are not used for mere disagreement, but this was a debate with two sides, if you read the post. What, specifically, do you disagree with?
EDIT: Since I have waited two days and have not received a reply, I will be flagging your comment. When you remove your flag, I will remove this one. This is nothing personal, but I take downvotes seriously, and feel you have abused the feature. I consider this a self-defensive action.
Oh, so now you want to advise us from Japan what we can and cannot do on Steemit. That's a bit strong! I can flag any content that is promoting childabuse. You are promoting childabuse, so you got a flag from @coloured-content. My word of advice to you @kafkarnarchy84: Get your power-down done, cash in and use this money to stop the vaccine childabuse.
I am not pushing vaccines. Why are you talking to me like this? Please watch this video. I argue that they should not be mandatory and that currently they are not safe.
....Perhaps I have become lazy ! lolol
If I see just one more comment from @kafkanarchy84 I shall flag them as well. There is NO DEBATE about VACCINE CHILDABUSE.
Mandatory vaccinations is clearly abuse of children, as well as everyone who doesn't want them. Not only this, but any medical procedure that is performed without informed consent is a war crime under the Nuremberg code. People were hanged after the Nuremberg trials for forcing medical procedures on people without knowledge and/or consent. Children cannot consent.
I know this is an emotional subject, but @kafkanarchy84 is clearly in agreement with you. The title of the post may have been confusing. Please do reconsider.
This Luke Van de Voorde obviously has no respect for self ownership, is sadly misinformed about the subject, and is the one who wants to force the People to do something against their will.
Sound ideas don't need to be mandatory, only flawed ones.
We have a difficult enough fight on our hands stopping the authoritarian, totalitarian mandatory vaccinators. Turning on each other is not going to help anyone.
If you do this I will have to take action. You have misunderstood my entire post. I am standing with the parents of vaccine-injured children! Actually watch the debate before passing judgement!
i require 0.002 steem can you transfar i give 5 vote to your 5 post