has strongly affected the growth of Hive and the value of it's token.
This is debatable.
and null or negative rewards for undertaking that investment will inevitably discourage creators from doing so.
I am one of the content creators who has taken the most DVs on this platform, and it has had nothing to do with the content I create and, if you haven't noticed, I put in my effort consistently daily - regardless. But, I understand enough that this place doesn't pay a salary, nothing is mine until it is in my wallet, safely behind my keys.
Also, if you haven't taken note, many of the topics that are getting downvoted here, I actually write about too - so it isn't "ideological suppression" is it?
I remain absolutely confident that Hive's ability to prevent plagiarism, scams, and spam can be maintained without enabling the incalculable harm that comes to our community from the historical and continuing censorship of creators of content odious to well staked individuals and the Hive oligarchy.
This is a bit of loaded nonsense.
I appreciate you disagreeing with me, although rather than simply stating you consider something nonsense, I'd prefer to be schooled in detail. However, you have done me a courtesy of replying when I can see you have much else to do, and have been doing at no little cost to you, so am content with your courtesy.
It is this bit. Hive empowers creators and it is these staked users who delegate power to them through votes and other ways. The value of the token is dependent on these staked users and the demand on the token and, by way of this, staked users do what is in their best interest (act how they want) to satisfy their desires. A content creator might desire reward, but they know that the stake decides what is rewarded and very importantly, what is not rewarded.
If a person wants to drink clean water from a shared river, they will do what they can to stop people polluting it. The definition of what is "pollution" might change from person to person, but each stake holder has a stick with a net of varying sizes to do what they think makes the river cleaner, for them. You might not agree on what they consider pollution, but they might not agree with someone shitting in their drinking water. There is a lot of shit and much slips through the net, but at least there is the chance to filter out the biggest chunks - but the only one's who can, are those with a net.
It is natural that people will protect what they own from what they believe is harmful to it.
You are kind, indeed. I don't disagree with anything you say here, and find your analogy for stake appropriate, because in the Western USA in the 19th and 20th Centuries, water use and rights were quite contentious. In fact, they still are, and Oregon even claims water that falls on the roofs of private homes, despite fee simple title.
Where a commercial concern such as a rancher or grower wanted to control a water source, grazing cattle without fencing off that water supply has been used to preclude other uses for that water, as you suggest water fouled with dung will do.
I am sure you will agree that circle jerks and bot networks extracting rewards from the pool by collusion instead of the community curating content to deliver rewards to creator's accounts are comparable to polluting the water supply in your analogy, or at least I hope you will. I am aware of highly staked Hive users with ~10k accounts, probably more by now. It is difficult to imagine uses for that many bots other than as rewards pool extraction mechanisms.
The fact is that not all rewards on Hive are PoB, and not all voting activity is dedicated to benefiting the platform, community, or token. Some of it is to extract as much ROI from the rewards pool as possible, by any means necessary.
Flagging accounts into negative can be done with just one well staked account, and I'm sure you've seen it done on Hive as have I (I'm including Steem before Sun Yuchen used his stake as he saw fit, as well). I've seen content creators I consider valuable to the platform driven from it by this means. It's happening right now to @logiczombie, @lucylin, and others. The things they have to say, the way they say them, or why they say them may not be your cup of tea, but I'm also sure that you are dependent on a diversity of views on Hive to make your use of it valuable to you.
If everyone just agreed with everything you say, there'd be no point in saying it, after all. Flagging creators to drive them from the platform for any reason other than spamming, scamming, or plagiarism is not beneficial to Hive, the community, token value, or you personally. The experimental nature of the endeavor has left such abuses possible, and this has greatly contributed to Hive not gaining new users, keeping users it attracted, or enabling stake to be more widely distributed and increase the decentralized governance of the platform.
Sun Yuchen taught us all the danger of stake too concentrated, and the only thing keeping that from happening to Hive again is...nothing. It's in fact happening right now. Yuchen just exercised his sole option odiously, while our current collaborative oligarchs less so. Stake requisite to governance isn't concentrated in one account, as killed Steem, but it is held by very few whales that do use it covertly in ways that harms the community, even if most of us aren't getting flagged to the point we receive no rewards for months on end, have our reputations turned negative, and end up with our every post and comment greyed out, almost exactly like censored material on extremely censored social media platforms like Fakebook, Twatter, and Goolag.
That's not free speech. That's censorship, and it's bad for Hive. Some people seem to find it useful and have the stake to undertake it. @ura-soul is a valuable content creator, a witness, and a good person that is beneficial to Hive and the community. There's no good reason he's getting flagged.
You've been flagged in the past and you also realize that if it was still ongoing to the degree it's now happening to @logiczombie or @lucylin you wouldn't be posting here anymore. Just because it's not happening right now doesn't mean it won't happen at any time. I would consider it a bad thing if it was happening to you, and it's a bad thing to happen to anyone not scamming, spamming, or plagiarising. Flagging to control rewards is just greed. It's got no place on Hive, and the code should prevent it.
Thanks for taking the time to elucidate in depth here.. I have been saying the same things for months now and I only have so much time/energy to keep the flame alight in every thread that repeats the same things again and again with different commenters.
I just want to add that people view such situations quite differently to each other for a variety of reasons but what stands out as a unifying factor here is that before I had my account zeroed for these last 3+ months (regardless of how much time I put into posts, how long they are, how many people comment or how many upvote/reblog), I would naturally have wanted to help other people going through the same because I know that it's a) A problem for hive's image, b) It sucks as an individual to be on the receiving end and c) because I allow empathy to inform me of what I would feel if I were in that position.
Even if I don't particularly value the content being nuked, if there is no obvious justification for it and even an intent to avoid providing an explanation, then it feels out of balance and likely to create a sour taste for many users. Naturally, since I like to help others (and myself) to feel good, I seek to do something to help.
There have always been people who think like this and others who think very different ways. I think that the deeper personal inclinations play a part here more-so even than many of the factors already raised that are specific to Hive, rewards, money or posts.
I don't know about logiczombie, but lucylin is one of the most dishonest accounts on Hive and will do anything for attention. Perhaps if this wasn't the case, he wouldn't have firstly got the flags and even if he did, there would be people willing to counter them. You should use a different example.
Such as? Bernie had a lot - but I don't think 10k. There was one dart account on Steem that was extracting with 8K accounts using the original Steem HP that was given to each account, but it was killed a long time ago through the introduction of a slight curve.
I have been flagged heavily by bernie and haejin - still posted - didn't complain about it, nor call people nazis, trannies, low IQ...
Use different example - these people aren't necessarily shining examples of society. Also, logiczombie flags me ;D
No, it is not.
Convince people with stake to change it.
Lucylin cultivates a disreputable manner, but he does not scam, spam, nor plagiarize. It is precisely because you don't like his content that it best represents your commitment to free speech. Supporting only speech you like isn't supporting free speech at all. That's exactly the position the censors like Goolag, Twatter, and Metard take.
It has been a very long time, and I do not recall other details of the conversation which may have entailed expectatio of my discretion. I am not going to name them unless they themselves tell me it's ok.
Yes, it is. It serves no other purpose than to strip the upvotes of the community of their financial value, which is returned to the pool for the benefit of whales that consistently extract more than 90% of that value themselves. I confess after the Haejin/Bernie fiasco I quit paying much attention to that metric, so maybe that has changed a little, but I doubt it has changed much since then.
It serves no curative purpose.
Also, you sorta sidestepped my observation that if you were being flagged such that you still received no financial reward at all for it you would not be posting. We have both kept posting when flagged, but we have not been flagged for months on end, our reputations sent negative. I have watched as users here have stuck to their guns when flagged deeply into negative rep, been upvoted back, and flagged and upvoted back again. @skeptic was determined not to be silenced, and remains someone I miss for that example of indomitable will. Sadly, it seems not to have been enough to bring him back after his move.
That kind of flagging can be done, it has been done, it's being done, and it should not be done. It's contrary to the purpose of a platform dedicated to free speech and makes Hive no different than Twatter, Goolag, or Metard.
@edicted long ago published a detailed savings plan nominal to avail whales of substantial ROI without deranging curation, and I still recommend that mechanism as far superior to the current curation rewards scheme, which I still maintain should be abolished.
I am not seeing anything that changes my positions, and do not think I am giving you any new information that changes yours. I recall being shut down by a top 20 witness without substantive argument and no more reply than 'We disagree.' That isn't an example of reason and discussion leading to improvement in policy, but of money preventing it.
That's exactly the problem at issue.
His first post:
https://hive.blog/@lucylin/hello-steemit-i-m-lucy-my-first-post
Start here and work back
https://hiveblocks.com/@lucylin?page=1513
A man of stability
https://hive.blog/blog/@lucylin/4-strikes-and-i-m-out-there-are-no-coincidences
There are so many things wrong with that person and their behavior, that I find it interesting that this is who you choose to stake your reputation on. Nothing stops him posting here - He doesn't have to earn on it.
No. It benefits everyone who gets voted on. Whales generally don't vote on themselves 70x a week.
And no, that wasn't @edicted - it was me who posted it, based on the conversations I had with whales.
Witnesses are people, not gods, same with whales. They have their personal opinions too. Seriously, if you don't like the place, find somewhere you do like. This is the internet, there are millions of sites out there offering millions of different experiences. Funny though, that the most complaints about people threatening to leave (not you in this case) keep staying here because, this is one of the only ones they have a chance to earn on.
Despite my complete disgust at this common resort to the dialectic of failure, and my personal familiarity with Edicted's savings account plan from discussions with him, I recognize that there is no point in continuing to converse with you on this matter, so will allow you the last word.