You trust and respect the medical and scientific community; and their clear ruling is that full vaccination on the prescribed schedule is the best and safest option for the individual and society. Let's assume that's true.
Now what?
We've established it's a good thing; but some people don't agree.
What should we do about those people?
They clearly lack our reasoning skills and simply refuse to get themselves and their children vaccinated, no matter how compelling our arguments.
We have to make it mandatory, right?
If it was just their own health on the line, we wouldn't have a problem; but we have a problem because we have a society and we need that herd immunity to protect the vulnerable.
There's only one problem and its a big one, so it gets big letters.
People who don't share your priorities react to incentives differently than you would.
You trust and respect the establishment; so you do what you're told.
When it's mandatory you do it.
This might have lead you to assume that people who don't trust and respect the people in charge will also do what they're told; that the only thing standing between society, and the safe-harbour of herd immunity, is convincing those people in charge to make it mandatory.
That making a thing mandatory is the same as making it happen.
Have you heard the term, Shoot, shovel and shutup?
Environmentalists sometimes secure legal protection for an endangered animal, meaning the animals and their habitats need to be left undisturbed indefinitely wherever they're found; even if they're on otherwise productive farmland.
The champions of these rules have the well-being of the animals as their highest priority.
Looking after endangered animals is good, so making it mandatory is just making sure the other people do the good thing.
After the rules arrive, and often while they're still being discussed, there tends to be a fairly drastic reduction in sightings of the animals.
Many of them are never seen again, at least not on paper.
The farmer is heavily invested in his farm, and as much as he'd like to look after the animals, he can't risk having them found on his land; as the legislation would limit his use of it, including his ability to sell it as useful land; forever.
Anecdotally rules of this nature inspire a widespread culling campaign, where potentially affected farmers co-operate to eradicate any trace of potentially protected animals from the area.
Shoot, shovel and shut up.
In the absence of rules, farmers will spot a rare looking animal and call it in.
They're happy to pass along relevant, timely, accurate information because they know they won't be punished for it.
We currently enjoy the same level of co-operation from those unwilling to vaccinate.
They fill out the conscientious objection paperwork, and give us an accurate and therefore valuable indication of who is vaccinated and who isn't; but the first victim of war is the truth, and mandating that somebody undergo a medical procedure against their will is a declaration of war.
It might not feel like a war, but that's because you're not on the front lines.
The medical professionals; the ones you have all that respect for; they'd be the ones in the trenches. Doctors and nurses didn't study all those years just to be conscripted as foot soldiers and surveillance agents for the state; but that's what they'd become.
Sign off on the vaccination or I'll come back and burn this place to the ground.
Here's $500 to squirt that stuff in the sink and sign the paperwork.
Tick the box or I'll say I caught you fondling my little boy.
This might sound outlandish. Goodness knows, you wouldn't dream of hacking into a database, fabricating paperwork claiming to have been vaccinated while overseas, getting a plant hired as a receptionist or renting a junkie's baby as a ringer, but remember.
People who don't share your priorities react to incentives differently than you would.
They'll do whatever it takes to avoid that needle; and they won't feel guilty about it; since they'll consider it self defense. Are you sure you want to do that to doctors?
There are thousands of parents out there already, who blame a vaccine for their child's chronic health problem; and hate themselves for choosing to vaccinate.
Where will that rage be directed when that choice is taken away?
It's not like they can just go to a different doctor.
Any move to make vaccination mandatory will have to also limit doctor shopping, to stop parents from hopping from one doctor to another until they find one they can threaten or bribe into fabricating the paperwork.
Imagine a couple who blame their oldest child's crippling illness on the mandatory vaccinations administered by their family doctor; sitting opposite the same doctor, giving their second child the same shot, so child services don't take the baby into permanent foster care, (where they'll get the shot anyway.)
Do you think that's the kind of working environment the doctor signed up for?
The real insidious part of all this is the long term fallout; and there's no shortage of that.
At first a mandatory vaccination program would appear highly effective.
On paper, the rates of vaccination would increase, and even approach 100%
Anyone assessing the program would no doubt declare it a success and move on to the next project.
Our records show every Yellow-banded-skink habitat is now protected; pop the champagne. (Lucky we did it too, there were far fewer skinks than we projected)
Then the questions would start.
So why are people still getting these diseases?
Why are doctors struggling to accurately diagnose illnesses when relying on patient's records?
How can you claim vaccination is effective when we're all vaccinated against measles but keep getting these epidemics?
The safety and efficacy of vaccines may be backed by science, but you can't do good science with bad data; and once that data is contaminated there's no way to know how thoroughly compromised it is, or to replace what you're missing.
Not only would we lose track of how many people are vaccinated, we'd lose track of how many people there are.
Vaccine hesitant expectant parents would opt to have undocumented babies; encouraging a whole ecosystem of doulas and midwives to provide underground birthing services.
Children who currently enjoy almost all of the benefits of our healthcare system would receive none of them, and that can't be good for herd immunity.
It might be comforting to write this off as hyperbole; but between tracking/privacy and mandatory schooling concerns, many couples wouldn't need much more justification to take the whole family off-grid, and these are people already willing to risk having their children contract any number of preventable diseases to avoid those jabs.
No records collected after serious discussion of mandatory vaccination starts can be considered accurate; and we're getting dangerously close to seriously discussing mandatory vaccination.
People will start to adopt some of these countermeasures even before any legislation has passed; so think very carefully about what you advocate, before its too late.
Intentions aren't outcomes; and people who don't share your priorities react to incentives differently than you would.
Have a great day.
Very well said.
Unfortunately the nanny staters running Australia continue to destroy the Lucky Country, one unnecessary law at a time.
Bliss is just a few more rules away.
Just a few more....and then we'll shift the goalposts a bit if it doesn't feel blissful enough.
It seems that we Italians have exported the mafia all over the world, and the way governments are working is one of the results? 😜
It seems increasingly evident to me that the various nation states in the world do not respond to the interests of their peoples but to very different hidden powers. And to you?
A huge hug 🤗
from @amico!
P.s.: Followed and Resteemed
Great points Matt and many I haven't even thought of.
As you know we are antivax and this is a decision we don't take lightly. Prior to trying for a baby I had already begun research and slowly building my network of like minded people to prepare for now.
Doctor and midwife shopping was easy for me as I already had trusted sources who could recommend Doctors in my area who respect conscious objectors, and reliable & experienced Midwives.
Mandatory vaccinations is pretty much forcing us in to new way of life. I know because of our choices I need to be prepared to homeschool, look after our diet in order to support our immune system better.
There really is so much to think about and consider when going down this route.
At the end of the day we all just need to remember that we all want to do what's best for us and our family and there's no need for the hate between opposing parties.
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I don't think proponents of mandatory vaccination really understand how divisive it is.
Right now there are any number of people who want to postpone one or more of the recommended jabs, usually for a year. Making the shots mandatory will ensure some of those people get them in the recommended time frame, but there are other people who would have had them a year later, who will find a way to not get them at all.
Intentions aren't outcomes.
Hearing that.
Postponing is also a good option and makes a lot of sense, and provides a middle ground for a lot of objectors.
I agree that making it mandatory will create bigger problems all around.
Kind makes me think about what you said back in Dec about moving another country. Less rules, more freedom.
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Thank you for pointing out the doctor's perspective. I think most doctors believe vaccines pose more benefits than risks, or they wouldn't use them. However, the government takeover of healthcare creeps closer every day. The system already places so many barriers between the practitioners and the patients that it is difficult to do what we actually signed up to do, which is to help a person identify a problem and take action to achieve an outcome for their health. I wonder how many of the actions a doctor takes each day are directly related to helping their patients or training to improve their skills, and how many are simply a requirement of government and third party payors?
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So true. This whole suggestion is terrible for doctor/patient relationships. Any doctor contemplating retirement is going to bring their timeline forward and we'll instantly lose decades of experience.
How many lives will that cost?
Good article Mr Clarke!
Before I jumped on the Steem blockchain, I thought anti-vaxxers were ill-informed and a danger to society as a whole... yet in the same breath I'd rail against so many scientific studies that are purchased by corporations to show their product is healthy/good, etc.
Steem has been really good for me to ask further questions, and while I still think the bulk of scientific data points to vaccinations being good for the individual and society, I've come to respect that I also don't understand all the variables and that the matter simply comes down to trust. We're also choosing not to have kids, so I honestly don't have a horse in this race at all.
I had honestly never thought about the data and documentation of the choice, you raise some really good points. I know at least one nurse and some friends who are pretty intelligent who are all anti-vaxxers, and I'm sure they'd do exactly as you say, shop around until they found medical professionals that share their views (which as you say, would corrupt the data).
I do believe that good data is everything... so you've opened my eyes to a whole point I otherwise totally missed.
You need to be very careful how you quantify success. Before prohibition there were plenty of drunken incidents, fights and even murders on licensed premises. After prohibition was enacted there were no drunken incidents, fights or murders on licensed premises. If that's all you're looking at, it's going to look like a win.
That's a solid analogy, but hopefully no one narrows the data points that much. I think in both cases you could look at total hospital visits for the population to see what effect prohibition/vaccination has. Downtick in barfights sure... uptick in private party fights, ah okay.
When you trap people in a corner, they're not going to do what you want. Like the high crime areas where the only way to survive is drug dealing. If a cop walks into that neighbourhood there's going to be a shoot out, because for these people going to prison means their family gets left without a provider.
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There are medical risks involved with vaccinations. (No one tries to pretend there are no risks, vaccination injuries do happen.
There are medical risks involved in not having vaccinations.
Many were not consulted and did not agree to try to eradicate disease via vaccinations.
Most of the risks, either way, are small. No one owes anyone else immunity. The idea that someone should take a medical risk for someone else is absurd.
One of the things that separates us from animals is our ability to choose because we are not OWNED.
The vaccination industry needs to learn how to market not force their products and maybe we all don't care about eradication.
There is a movement in my state to make vaccinations mandatory for schools. There is already a huge move to vote down all school levies and stop any funding of public school activities.
The whole argument is a slippery slope as "My Body MY Choice" is a concept that people already understand.
I can't believe how overblown the discussion is.
That's a very interesting point. In a way that needle is playing Russian roulette, because we don't know how the body is going to react to what goes in. There is a high chance that it won't react, but the bullet is somewhere in there, so who knows if it's your child's turn. There's no getting around the fact that some people's kids will become collateral damage.
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We studied the topic of vaccination and deliberately did not vaccinate our daughter! We live in Russia and our people, like many around the planet will not allow to make it mandatory! I see with my own eyes how ill vaccinated children are around. But our daughter is very strong. She is already 4 years old and she very easily suffered several colds and chickenpox.
Precious little sweetheart :)
I am more of an anit- vaccine person. Here in America if you want an abortion it is your right and your body. Yet they tend to try to force vaccines and it is not your body? Do you even know everything that is in that single vaccine? If you ask the doctor about the individual ingredients does he know the side effect of each ingredient? Peoples bodies react to vaccines differently. Some are ok and some not. Assembly line vaccination does not work. We should have the freedom to choose. I assume one day they will vaccinate us through the air we breathe. BTW has the canary died and gone to heaven? LOL Was it vaccinated? Best wishes to you my dear friend @mattclarke.
@the-canary is still there. He's doing fine :)
I'm trying to get away from the nature of the vaccines, or even the ethics of forced vaccination, and just think through some of the logistical consequences of such a program; assuming vaccines are all good, and assuming its ethically justifiable to try and impose them on others.
They can shove the flu shot where the sun don't shine.
If your immune system is good, it can cope (its ok to feel sick now and then)...We just have to keep messing with nature..
If your old and/or sick and want to see tax dollars in action..go for it!
You have such a great way of putting things! Love the article, you've written it much better than I ever could. Hopefully one day I'll be able to write as well.
Thanks, Angel. That's very kind.
Like anything, it's just about practice. I already look back on my posts from a year ago and wish I'd done things differently. I'm sure I'll feel the same about this one a year from now, too.
Glad you enjoyed it.
consider this:
Since some people will end up breaking rules/laws should we not have any laws/rules ?
I think a more rationale argument is whether the law is justified or not ?
There are only two kinds of "laws": the unnecessary and the harmful.
Laws against aggression and property violations are unnecessary. You already know these things are wrong. You need no "law" to allow you to defend yourself from these violations. Does murder or armed robbery have to be illegal for you to know it's wrong? If it does you have an ethical problem.
Laws against- or compelling- anything else are harmful. These "laws" are counterfeit. They whittle away at the foundations of civilization.
"Laws" are for losers.
Rules are sometimes a different matter, if you can opt out or agree to them explicitly before getting into something.
People who have gotten justice throught court systems would slightly disagree with you.
Did they get justice or revenge?
https://blog.kentforliberty.com/2019/02/courts-have-institutionalized-revenge.html
Justice
Interesting, because I've never once seen justice come from a government court except by accident. It was always punishment/revenge, financed by theft, and carried out by theft-paid bullies and thugs.
Never/Always
I don't live in such an absolute universe , there is a whole lot of grey area in my lived experience.
If a rule goes from being ineffectual to being counterproductive it becomes worse than having no rule.
I'm not talking about the ethics here at all, just the logistics. If you're sitting in the driver's seat and put the stick in 'R' (for really fast) and floor it; that won't end like you think it's going to.
Likewise, if you try and impose medical procedures by law (ultimately at gunpoint), it won't end like you think it's going to.
Mandatory vaccination is assault. If you can't control your own body, then every principle of a free society is also lost. Good ideas don't need the use of force.
Also the "herd immunity" argument is proof that vaccines are weak. If they really worked, then all the unvaccinated would die off leaving only the vaccinated herd.
Devil’s Advocate here. Is there any region where everyone had been vaccinated against measles where was then a measles epidemic? Maybe so, but I’ve never heard of such a situation.
By the way, I’m old enough to have had measles and rubella and mumps and chicken pox before there were vaccines for them. Also old enough that I did get a smallpox vaccination.
There's been plenty of cases where so called herd immunity has been proclaimed and outbreaks have occurred.
1984, a high school in Waltham, Massachusetts had 27 case even though 98% of students had documented proof of vaccination.
Corpus Christi 1986, 99% vaccinated and they had a measles outbreak.
A high school in IL 1989 99.7% vaccinated and they had a large outbreak.
just to name few cases specific to measles, other diseases all have outbreaks even though vaccine induced herd immunity has been achieved.
Herd immunity is a pipe dream sold to us by big pharma.
I'm talking about a situation where everyone is vaccinated on paper; but some unknown number of those people have actually avoided being vaccinated.
As with everything else, where I'm concerned, mandatory is the deal-breaker
What I don't understand about all this BS about children who aren't vaccinated posing a threat to the community. If a child is vaccinated for a particular disease how is that child threatened by a unvaccinated child!!! The way I see it is if the vaccinated child is threatened its because the vaccine is ineffective!!! Cheers bro.
They claim that its the very small number of vulnerable kids, who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, who are at risk.
So the proposal is:
We impose an unwanted medical procedure on somebody who doesn't personally need it; on the grounds that they may at some point;
It really is incredibly tortured thinking, based in the silly assumption that everyone, even those who are taken ill, are constantly interacting with everyone else.
I'd suggest ending mandatory schooling would do far more to prevent the spread of contagious illnesses.
The fact that isn't even being discussed tells me a lot about the motivations of those pushing this agenda.
How did we ever evolve over millions of years without these life saving vaccines!!!!
mandatory vaccination must be evolved with finner technologies to enhance the effect of improvement.
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