After a recent confrontation with a "web2 influencer" who so graciously followed me before sending me a dm on Twitter with a "hi and a price list of her tweets and "influence"" it got me thinking a bit more about what attention has become on web2. I'm not fully sure how we got here but I think crypto was a big part of it and the ease of payments that come along with it.
It's all become muddied down. Attention on web2 is now covered in a veil of fakeness, how thick that veil is is hard to determine but most people don't even think about it blinded by the numbers. I remember this one time some Redditor did an experiment where he posted a short video on one of Reddits biggest subreddits at the time r/videos, the content of the video was pretty much him just explaining what he's doing, which was buying Reddit upvotes on certain black markets for the video itself. He was so sure he was going to get to trending that he mentioned it in the video that was now trending how he did it and that it works and that it wasn't even that expensive.
Hundreds of thousands of views about a video just uncovering how easy and cheap it was to get to trending on Reddit. Sure you can say Reddit admins may have strengthened their fake upvote detection system since but they're not the only one improving. Where there's money to be made...
It brought me back to this particular influencer, now I didn't bother researching much and going through her account after basically telling her to fuck off, but I've seen similar accounts in the past, many of them tied towards crypto startups/nfts and how they operate. They either create a new account, buy a ton of followers and likes for their tweets or they buy older accounts with already a lot of followers and possibly buy more. This gives the sense that these accounts have demand, they have attention and you can benefit from that attention by paying them a little to drive their traffic towards your project.
It is what it is, right? Well, the real issue I wanted to talk about was something that's always going to exist with web2 and I've also talked about in the past but it has become even more obvious now after Elon took over Twitter. One of the things he made public was that employees at Twitter used to make deals themselves to sell people verified blue checks before they changed the meaning behind them. Imagine that.
Imagine people, companies, charities, projects, etc, that let's say were decent. They were doing the right thing, applying for a blue check and kept getting denied or told the wait time is just too long, they don't have time to get to it, etc, etc. Of course some were quite big, too big to ignore so Twitter made sure to bluecheck them, after all Twitter profits off of having giant projects officially use twitter and the check protecting both the project and the users of Twitter. But what about the others? Did they keep it scarce on purpose so the demand would increase? Did they keep it scarce so that the demand could be monetized by people desperate enough? Or was it just constant negligence and a few rogue workers seeing an opportunity to make some money by "letting them skip the queue to bluecheck them for a price".
Point being here, these databases are all private. If nothing scandalous and huge occurs that'll drive everyone to look there, many in control/power get away with a lot of things. I don't for a second expect that things are different over at Reddit or any other web2 platform.
I remember another story by a user that was super popular on Reddit, some biologist or something who was always there at the right time replying with the right thing and cashing in big on that useless imaginary reddit point system called karma. Eventually some people got suspicious and skeptical. Was this guy such a genius and expert in the field or was he using wikipedia/the internet and getting lucky with his timings and appearances? I mean keyboard Wikipedia warriors are nothing new, people like to pretend they're so clever and amazing on the internet and especially on platforms similar to Hive where they're given enough time and chances to research things before they type them, compared to say talking to them face to face or in real time. It's one of the things people like to lie to themselves about just so their internet persona looks better, I could bet that there's way less "I don't knows" out there than people giving you facts they've just googled and calling you a dummy while at it cause you didn't know.
This biologist got greedy, though, and it often reminds me of one of the fallacy's with people who try to sockpuppet and use multiaccounts, they think it's easy and they'll manage to fool everyone else but when they least expect it they often do the one mistake that gives them away and ruins their reputation for good. I'm not 100% sure on what the story was, but his username was called Unidan so you can probably research it, I'm not going to just to make it sound like I remembered it fully, but the gist was that he was in a debate with someone else and they noticed some odd activity around him. Not only would his comments often and consistently get upvoted quick, but others he was debating against would get downvoted, even in statements were they knew they weren't wrong so they wondered if it was just Unidan's fanbase reacting to protecting him or if the wisdom of the crowd was failing for other reasons. I think eventually an admin decided to take it upon himself to check activities surrounding the involved debaters and noticed how a few accounts would automatically not just then but had a big history of upvoting Unidan. He later came forward and admitted to having ran many alt accounts he used to "highlight" his responses with to give them a "headstart", etc, and I guess it got away from him and he started using them to also "silence" his "competitors" for attention in comment sections and debates. Unidan was banned.
The thing that stands out to me from this story is not that I'm surprised someone did this, but that he got away with it for so long. He was one of the top popular users on a multimillion daily/hourly active user platform and he had to really abuse it for people to bother looking into it. What does that say about web2 in general? What does it say about others who easily could do the same thing, either with a few bots, some black market activity or heck even manually logging back and forth on a few alts to boost their own attention. Who's going to check that activity constantly if it's not that big for people to suspect anything on? Does Reddit have millions of admins able to look at the database for the activity? Do they have sophisticated technology to determine if certain votes are real or fake, check through the activities of each account to determine if they're real or bought? Do they bother when they know that karma isn't worth anything?
What does that tell us about advertisement? Do you think the only way people post ads on Reddit is through their ad system or do you think some may use black-market or expert hidden advertisers who post in a way that makes it not sound like an ad as long as the content favors a project or company and lands on trending to get it the most attention?
The main difference between these and Hive, and I'm not saying these kind of tactics would be impossible on Hive neither, but here everyone can check for themselves. Reddit and Twitter isn't opening up their logs in their databases to everyone and most likely never will. As for Hive everyone can check who upvotes this person's post/comment, how much stake that account has, what else does it vote for, what does it comment on, what did it vote for/comment on recently, how did it stumble upon this post, is he following the user or subscribed to that community, etc, etc. It gives us so much more leeway into determining if a post or comment was upvoted because they wanted to upvote it or if the poster paid for some hidden service to active certain accounts to get his post some attention through the upvote system.
Think about it back in the Steemy bid bot days. It really wasn't hard to determine if a post was bid botted up to trending or if they had been genuinely curated. Even with services such as @smartsteem that used other people's posting keys to sell votes without the need to delegate it was quite easy to see that the trail was a bought vote. Nowadays there are no more "public" bid bots. Now I know that if we had more attention as a platform, millions of daily active users these services would become a lot smarter, in fact they'd have to be since everything is open here, but we'd at least have the opportunity to decide for ourselves rather than seeing things the way we do now on web2. Where it's not just hidden behind a thick veil of a closed database but also ran by people who will never be held accountable for their hidden actions they may or may not profit of in one way or another or have ulterior motives to act or look away if they see such activity.
Numbers don't mean anything on web2 anymore really, there are still people with real attention and they're determined by who is actually engaging with them and how their reputation is and often times what their net worth is. All that is and will remain private without the public/masses ever finding out or being any smarter about it, on Hive all of that comes open and transparent to you by default.
You're right about everything in this post. I thought to get attention in Hive was to post as much as i could but as you can see from my old post all sucks really lol.
Then I stop thinking about the numbers and start researching more on Hive I notice that you need to be in a community also you need to contribute to that particular community as well or give a meaningful comments. after awhile im quite surprised how well people responded now im having a hard time to reply to comments sometimes too because its quite a lot sometimes
my long hours at work does effect my reply time but its good that so far no hivers has complained how slow i reply to them or even worse i forgot to reply haha. web2 does go crazy with the attention even most of my friends i work with they get crazy for view so they just post their butt and half naked body online just to get views the men doing stupid things to get views its quite scary how our world turning into.
Nothing we can do when money is involve i guess.
Influencers influencing on how to influence.
People are selling on a weight base the number of followers, likes, visuals they can get on their profile and instead of using social networks for their very beginning purpose (networking on a social base) they just sell the attention of their followers to companies.
I can't say that in the project I am working with we do the same, as advertisement is also carried out in that way nowadays, but at least I make sure to work with deserving and ethical projects.
And influencers shilling here and there their packages, well, they maybe have missed some basics about how to engage with people
I think Hive is fairly organic for now, but then it's too small to attract many who are after attention. We also know that cliques will support each other and get to trending every time. There are so few of those that it's obvious what is happening. It will get interesting when we get to millions of users and maybe get big in certain areas. Then the scammers will take notice, but it will not be so easy to manipulate in terms of rewards without spending a lot.
I don't take too much notice of so-called influencers on any platform. It's quality of content that matters. I may make more on Hive than some wanna-be influencers :)
The reputation on Hive blockchain is a strong element proving that somebody is what he writes and engages about and not some fake imagination or poor imitation. I think that such characters would be quickly downgraded by the community on Hive web3 platform and they can only live in a web2 ecosystem where the only driving force is $ regardless of the ethics.
While the reputation system needs an upgrade, which I'm sure over time it'll get, that's true.
For instance we can't really give a reputation to only voting accounts.
There's not a few reputations bought and paid for on Hive today. The bidbots affected rep with their votes, and that rep persists today.
Honestly, gauging how much real attention people get by their subscribers/followers is silly on any platform. Bought followers aside, there are also ever-changing algorithms, people who followed but left or are mostly inactive, and that not everyone watches every video or whatever even if it DID cross their feed. Like looking at any YouTube video, you can see it'll be like 1 million subscribers, 200k views or something. Here too, I've got well over a thousand followers but I've certainly never had a thousand votes or comments or views. 😂 I'm sure probably half my follower count are off the blockchain these days.
even on hive we have voting trails, it's nice to see all those votes but in the end they are just statistics and no reall feedback from people about your post.
Yeah and most people learn they don't really mean anything over time, it's mostly newcomers who are surprised and think it means each vote was one reader cause coming from web2 they think that's the norm when in fact that hasn't been true there in forever either.
This is a reason I'm agin' automated voting. I suspect clever algorithms will make it a far worse problem as AI better potentiates botnets here.
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Everyone want attention and even on hive today, people do think following someone will also make such Pera to follow them too,but the case is different here, your work and contribution to the community will automatically get you what you deserved
I always get the feeling I get more attention on Hive than on IG, YT, etc...
It's just here, there are people I genuinely want to get news from, and vice versa.
The rest of the internet is just a meaningless never-ending vat, it's empty and void of life.
You will still find users rarely on hive with "follow for follow", in their bio
Ever see accounts that follow tens of thousands, and maybe they have 1500 followers, then a steady stream of posts with zero or slightly higher views and no engagement in sight?
I call that one, "Fishing for followers." They follow countless accounts hoping to get a follow back. That's their goal. Follow 20, get 1 follow back, in their mind, is productive.
Then they have to sit there and look stupid. Their "followers" from day one did not give a crap about their content. Their "followers" have the same mentality; same goals. Make number go up. Their following consists of thousands of accounts and combined have a miniscule amount of HP, because it's all noobs, doing the same thing, thinking they'll have an edge.
All they're left with is a list of people that ignore them. Unfollowing 100k accounts attempting to cover up that behavior is also logged, so they can't even deny it.
Maybe over time someone could amass tens of thousands of followers doing that. Then post, and highlight the fact (with a massive spotlight) even the tens of thousands of people following are seemingly (on the surface) not interested in their work, making them appear to be a complete failure.
Silly humans...
Reminds me of this one account:
At first it looks quite impressive, but one time I noticed it was spam following accounts so I asked what's up and he replied with "I'm doing an experiment". By spam following I mean literal spam, like after a week he was following 80k accounts or something, then all of a sudden his bot removed all followers except for a few. Many had decided to follow him back which now looks like he really is an amazing hiver that many followed cause of how amazing he is when in reality he never posted or engaged much or curated for that matter.
It's a bit annoying cause I never attempted such cheap tricks, while I can't deny a lot of my followers are from being trending/hot during the days we had a lot of active daily users and consistent curation which may have gotten many to follow based on the delegated HP it still annoys me that some can easily replicate such numbers without putting in any effort thus making most other account's numbers not mean anything.
I'm looking at one now with over 8k followers, following 131419 accounts... LOL! We only have ten votes per day and 24 hours in a day. It's blatantly obvious what the goal was there and the outcome is typical, like I explained. Big number, no views.
It's so weird because it takes less effort to simply grind honestly, and it yields better results every single time.
That old "web2 mindset" is an odd one. I even remember back in the day a "rapper" buying votes, then using that "clout" to act like a big deal, even going to far as claiming the votes were not purchased and those are his actual fans, and the fake rewards were "earned", then pissing me off claiming I point out his charade only because I'm "jealous."
Silly humans...
Probably worth noting we all have "dead followers". Impossible to avoid. Stings a bit when you're accumulating a following organically. I know from experience. The ones farming followers don't care and will most likely attempt to replace dead followers with more potential dead followers. You're just a number to them. As a consumer, that stings. I am not just some number that exists to make you look good.
Is that Scott? XD I remember noticing that some time ago and was like wtf lol why?
Organic is so much better, you get the people that actually are interested in you over time and they're sure to stick around longer and form actual relationships, but yeah as you say some people don't care about that, they just care about numbers.
Did the precise number of accounts following give it away? Fancy way to say a name without saying it... LOL!
Good dude but micromanages his time away. And I've noticed the concepts here, explained several different ways, still sound foreign and maybe even absurd to someone who's "good" at web2 tricks and gimmicks. Hard to break through that mindset and clue people in once they're in so deep.
lol nah I just noticed that in the past and was rather curious why he had bothered as there's not many others, or why at the very least did he not unfollow them again like the example above did.
From an experiment prespective, he did well. Many newbies might follow him for the fact that he have alot of followers.
I wasn't there before fork so when I asked some of people why they have alot of followers and most looks like dead users. They informed me about follow for follow services of steempileofshit.
There was alot of accounts something like arun1, arun2 to 400 or 600. It's connected to spt tag. So even you get a monster-curator or steemmonsters upvote, get 600 upvotes. Seeing how followers and upvotes are here on hive, I would like to conclude that we are also effected by this mentality on hive but much lower effect here.
Followers or upvotes numbers doesn't mean much here though as HP determines everything which is kind of progressive approach for such a new technology.
People will be people, anywhere they go, so yes there will always be some of that mindset. 1 vote from 1 human is "lesser" than 600 votes from 1 human, even though it's the same result. One simply looks better and it's no secret people are superficial.
I guess amount of engagement on his posts is the only indicator and difference between his and my account now.
Getting trend on Reddit not so easy
Obviously attention do relieved like injection
Everyone is looking for their 15 minutes of fame, web2 and web3 alike make those personalities flourish and do 'whatever it takes'. It's an unfortunate position, and web3 opens more doors for them to 'try' exploit, of course, real users know how to scout out these fake actors and the open blockchain makes it simple enough for even newbies to follow the trail. As Hive grows it will be interesting to see how things change, for the good and bad. We'll never stop scammers and those willing to 'challenge the system' all we can hope is to attract more 'good' users to outweigh the bad!
I see a lot of people who are eager to do the Follow to Follow on FB and get depressed when the metacompany restricts their account. Or when the engagement goes to red instead of green. I did the F to F once for an experiment but others just wanted to do it like every day. For me, there's more to life outside the internet.
As a travel blogger, before I joined Hive, I blog as a hobby but not as a popular travel influencer. I don't worry much about not having 5k followers or more. I had so many things going on in my personal life in the past few years so I can't fake having a glamorous life of a travel blogger.
On my blogs or FB page, I did share how I was able to travel on a budget. That was the reason I got some organic 2k followers. XD
What you state here is true: it is more about human nature rather than just the "Web2 issues" as these situations can (and probably are) happen(ing) here in Hive.
Even though it is easy to check, I was also thinking while reading your post that it wouldn't be so hard to do.
At the end, everything boils down to integrity and human nature, and if we have less of the infection here and in other Web3 platforms, it is just due to the younger age of the platforms.
It will tend to the same issues at the end probably. Therefore the true importance of a curating system, beyond a reward.
Thanks for sharing.
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Thoughtful post, and I mostly agree. However, I have been told by a user here they have >10k accounts (nameless because you know them). Not sure anything less than the SEC could unravel such a web, and frankly doubt the SEC could, either. It is as you say, that where there's money, there's deceit, and being PoS means the only possible form of governance Hive can have is a plutocracy.
Now, I'm here, and not elsewhere, despite my 'bad mouthing' (facts are just facts), and the fact I don't trade Hive for fiat, or any other cryptos, so I'm here for good reasons. Primarily censorship resistance. At least what I post here gets witnessed on the blockchain, and that's something even the Wayback Machine can't provide, which is why it's today shedding content faster than a mangy dog in the spring does hair all over your favorite sweater. The more hazards we face, the more valuable free speech becomes, because safety signals can save your life.
I know my life may have been saved by information I got here I wouldn't have elsewhere. Web2 cannot provide that value, which is worth a lot more than money. Centralized databases cannot substantively resist censorship, and only the truth can set us free.
Thanks!
follower count, subscribers, karma, and reputation.
they were a good measure of credibility from the times of old, times where internet forums were a thing and then some.
but over the years, as you put it, can be bought because a market exist for it.
now all we see are big numbers or a blue checkmark. while they are still an indicator of credibility, it's no longer absolute. We don't know how much of it, if not all are fabricated.
where there is value, there will be forces that will exploit it.
while I don't think this will ever stop, I agree that the transparency web3 brings can help mitigate it.
Another interesting read thanks, most of it went above my head, web2 reddit et al,
it's worrying that some people or companies can buy followers, likes, and traffic to give the sense that they have demand and attention, and It's important to be skeptical of what we see on social media and to remember that not everything is as it seems. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I think this shows that most people are trusting. We want to assume people are good. Of course even if people are "good" they are surrounded by things that sometimes motivate them to cheat. But still, we want to trust people.
I guess it's that instinct to trust that fraudsters and conmen abuse.
My guess would be that web2 is full of just as much corruption as places in the real world that attract corruption (like politics).
This is a huge advantage of web3!