Following up on my recent post I wanted to write out a quick idea to get some feedback on.
The "problem":
Many stakeholders don't have a lot of voting power as authors, they cannot vote comments past the minimum threshold for them to get rewarded or to properly thank them for their time. Hive price is also low which makes it harder to cross the minimum threshold.
There are solutions like feeless tipping, but with the whole curation being the main thing on hive where we can direct inflation with it, tips aren't common.
Writing out comments takes time, at least those done well. They also verify in some ways that the commenter has consumed the post which is valuable as we lack consumers. Going out and rewarding comments of others with your votes, if you're in a position to give bigger votes, is challenging and takes time without any additional rewards and at times it may come off weird to the author as they may not agree with the comment you decided to reward since comment rewards are the default way to organize the list when new viewers open the post.
A potential "solution".
This solution can come in 2 ways I can think of right now.
Most authors get rewards on Hive and posts are the go-to way to reward them. Autovotes and trails mostly only vote on posts as well. One solution could be for the author to place a small percentage of the post rewards as a beneficiary to a certain account, let's call it @commentrewarder. When placing rewards on this account, the account would record which post sent it rewards, it would then scan the post's comment section and look for the comments you as the author have upvoted and split up the rewards based on weight of your comments.
Example: I give 10% beneficiaries to @commentrewarder in this post. I upvote 2 comments in this post, one at 20% upvote, the other at 10%. When the post pays out, 10% beneficiaries are sent to it, let's assume 100% powered up post for simplicity and it results in 10 hive to commentrewarder. It then scans my post for my voting activity on the comments and gives the two comments 6.66 hive and 3.33 hive, maybe taking a small fee for the service.Solution two, you don't have to send it a beneficiary but instead an automatic comment is placed on the post by @commentrewarder. If upvoted by the author it triggers the bot to activate and curators/potential whitelist gets the comment some additional votes. Then it'd work the same as above, it scans the post for other comments and liquidates the rewards to send out as tips to the other comments in the post based on the authors voting preference.
Okay, I personally think solution 1 is better for starters at least as it doesn't generate new rewards from outside help for that particular author but takes a percentage of the post rewards to give out more to the commenters for authors who can't vote that high themselves.
Now let's get into "pros and cons"
pros
You give lower staked authors a chance to reward their engagement by forfeiting part of their post rewards.
Curators who notice the beneficiary may vote your post higher knowing you're attempting to reward your engagement.
It re-introduces something that existed at the very beginning of this chain, where part of the post rewards would automatically go to comments on that post but it at the same time gives the author the power to decide where to apply them based on their votes which can be tiny (1%-5%) as not to waste much voting mana to their already low stake.
Even authors with higher stake could make use of this.
It'd give a lot of new activity to the "tipping" command which many front-ends highlight and display, making your older post look richer in rewards if they receive engagement with comments being filled with tips. At the same time normalizing tipping which there's not a lot of activity of in this space since curation is king.
Engagement could become more distributed, people wouldn't just focus on the few who can give bigger votes to spend their time consuming their content while ignoring others if they prefer to get some rewards for their time engaging. Thus it could increase engagement and consumption levels overall which wouldn't be a bad thing.
cons
With solution 2 it wouldn't look nice to have a bot comment at the top if it has been upvoted in an effort to distribute those rewards to the other comments. This could be fixed if front-ends decided to tag and split bot comments apart from regular users in the comment section.
Posts and comments take 7 days to pay out so the tips would occur first after 7 days which means most people won't see the rewards until then. This could be fixed with an "upfront payment" by the author, basically loading up the @commentrewarder bot in preparation to tip comments on their next post based on how they vote them.
Some abuse could occur with step 2 if someone else votes the comment if author is a bad actor and only uses alts to self-comment and upvote their alts to direct those rewards towards them, it would need curators to check things over in that case before rewarding the bot comment.
With these new incentives there could be a rise in AI/bot activity leaving low effort comments that weren't manually generated with authors having a hard time knowing if they should reward it or not, other non-genuine comments could rise in activity as well.
Potential other pros and cons I may have missed, please let me know!
I've squatted the @commentrewarder account in case people like the idea and we'd wanna give it a try, a dev would be needed and some rewards for the work.
But let's see what the feedback is first and what your general thoughts on it would be, thanks for reading!
Both interesting ideas. I would definitely favor something like this. I want to reward people who take the time to comment on my posts, but I know that currently my small upvote on them just amounts to little more than a "seen" message as the value will go to dust. When I have more VP to spare I upvote comments higher, but after curating I often don't have much VP to spare. So anyway, I like your ideas and I'd support something like this that helped commenters.
I also like the idea for the frontends to separate bot and human comments. That would also fix the problem of all this tip bot spam. Ecency tries to high them, but peakd just collapses some of them. Having a complete separation in both cases would be best.
Usually I just ask the "regular" people not to place those commands on my posts and they've respected it. If the bots themselves go crazy it's also easy to mute them so they don't take a lot of space in the comment section.
At least I think my comment section is quite clean generally from them. ^^
So I would have to set that account you created as a permanent beneficiary? I have a feeling I would forget if I had to do it every time. I usually try to upvote comments even if I don't agree with them. They took the time to reply, so while I might feel differently, I think that deserves something. The tip bots have been a pain for me whenever I try to use them. I never get the syntax right and it ends up being a hot mess. Are there even a lot of people who are actively voting on comments? If there aren't that many, this might just be a lot of work on your part for nothing.
I think that if we don't like a comment we simply shouldn't vote, that would be like lying to ourselves, the idea should be that people express themselves however they like and that also means not voting for something we don't like, sorry if I get gossipy in your comment hehe 🌹
They still took the time to comment though. Even if I don't agree with their opinion, I can still respect it. That's my thinking anyway.
Diría que eso que dices vá en contra del libre albedrío, pero al darles like lo haces porque así lo deseas, sin embargo es ir en contra de tu propia sinceridad
I guess I don't see it that way. It's not like I am being forced.
Entonces lo haces por empatía jsjs
I'd say respect more than empathy.
I don't know if a lot, but some of us scan the comments and upvote good, insightful replies and whatnot.
Interesting. I will be the first to admit, I probably don't do that. It doesn't mean I shouldn't. I just don't set aside the time...
Not permanent, don't even know if there's a way to set an account as permanent beneficiary on the general user level.
There's @dustsweeper which can help upvoted comments climb above the dust threshold - I can honestly recommend it.
Post engagement is author's responsibility, and it is not that difficult to build up enough HP for rewarding comments (not the "cool photos bro!" style) within a couple of months since joining Hive. I don't see much space for automatization beyond Dustsweeper, which always upvotes only those comments, that have already been upvoted by somebody else.
I doubt dustsweeper has enough voting power to cover all minnows who vote comments to get them past the threshold. don't remember who ran it and tbh didn't even know if it was active still as I hadn't noticed it (didn't check right now if it is)
As far as I know, it pays off the delegators, and it is a paid service in a way. I believe it is quite viable.
And yes, it is operating.
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I actully think it's easier than ever for new users to earn something now without making huge long posts and that would be via InLeo. I'll often find myself dropping new votes to new users there to get them warmed up. However the 7 day payout window I understand why it's there but it's LONG. As a new user it feels like ages before you see that first payout let alone understanding everything you should be doing once you get that first payout.
What is HBD? Do I save HBD? What's Hive power and why did I only see half the reward? Why should I build hive power? and many more questions. It's a lot to understand and learn as a new user along with waiting for that first payout.
Yeah. I wonder if lowering it would be something witnesses would agree to, maybe even lowering it further for comments.
I think that in the future I should be more picky about the comments I upvote. At the same time I don't get that many comments so I used to upvote even comments with just thumbs up emoji/ single word. I hoped that those people would stick around and make higher quality comments in the future. But most of the time that did not happen.
it'll be easier to br pivky if you know that for instance 5% of your post rewards will go towards the comments you vote! will be an interesting experiment
Anything to help smaller accounts grow and retain users on the platform. Any chance the service fee could be burned on ROI has been achieved.
we can discuss it once it's built, I assume some maintenance and servers will be required, we'll see what the approximate costs and effort that went into it is first then decide!
That makes sense to me I figured either return the excess or just lower maintenance to keep a reasonable ROI or operating cost makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think 0 profit is right, but I think people would be happier to see services that pay back a appropriate amount. I have been thinking about the DHF a lot and see that there is a lot of waste that gives off bad optics so anything we can do to improve optics, user retention/experience is good.
I am concerned about malicious users taking advantage of it. I don't know if people would want to change their beneficiaries for it; I don't. I wonder if something like HSBI is a better option. But instead of upvoting posts, this comment HSBI [CHSBI?] will upvote the user's upvotes [similar to dust sweeper/bunny] on comments. It won't be a subscription service like the beneficiary, and once they bought one share, it can continue to increase over time like HSBI. I don't know how feasible it is though.
Hive SBI has discussed internally something that would let users signal comments (or even posts) that they could spend their pending upvote balances to support. I have an outline for the basic mechanisms that would be required, but no active development is currently underway.
Oh, that's cool. I didn't know you guys were also thinking about it. Shame there's no active dev on it yet.
never been much of a fan of hsbi if I understood/still remember it correctly. are you up to date on it to make it clear?
I just know the basics of it. Users/accounts send 1 Hive to the steembasicincome account, while also nominating another account. Both the sender and nominated account receive 1 share of HSBI. Over time these shares accumulate vote value. Once it reaches around 0.02 in value, the SBI account will vote on the next post of the account. What I like about it is that it continues to accumulate even if the account is not active. If one went on a vacation, it still continues to accumulate, so that when they post after their return, they can receive a much bigger vote. Here is my current status:
When looking at it from a comment upvoting perspective, I think their method can work well in determining the minimum vote is reached first so it isn't wasted. The accumulating value also doesn't penalize users that are not as active in upvoting comments, compared to the beneficiary option. Buying shares also makes it easier to control the contribution since everyone is getting the same thing. With the beneficiary, some might be hesitant especially if they sometimes get a big vote on their post.
Some of the cons I can think of is that I don't know if it is easy to scale to upvoting comments which is significantly more than just posts. Additionally, whales can take advantage of it if the vote amount accumulation is calculating based on all shareholders.
I like the ideas. Something like @dustsweeper but for comments that get upvoted could also help. Basically, people with not enough hive power to upvote comments send funds to an service account like dustsweeper and when you upvote a comment it adds to the vote to reach the threshold taking that from your balance in a way that can't be exploited.
What used to help a lot for engagement was the Hive Engagement League from @abh12345
Also, the general trend just seems to be that most voting power is with some of the curation accounts who upvote posts that look like quality often from the same authors who don't really bother to grow their accounts but systematically cash out or delegate their stake to get more passive earnings.
Some kind of incentive switch needs to be made there one way or another. I'm thinking of writing a more detailed post about this issue.
It does feel though like the general interest around Hive is picking up again and more of the ones who are invested woke up looking for ways to fix key issues that have been here for long as the price of Hive has been pretty dead and they don't want to miss the possible bull run.
I believe @dustsweeper lets you choose whether to boost your comments only or to boost all comments that you have previously voted.
I didn't know that. The way I understand it, you send some funds to the dustsweeper account and whenever you get a post or comment that is below the threshold it bumps it up to a point where it's above it. I don't think it increases the upvotes you give to others who are below taking from your balance. I could be wrong but the only real info I can find is a post from 4 years ago.
Yeah I'm kind of operating on memory from 4 years ago. My understanding was that you can also use it to keep your upvotes on comments from turning to dust.
I just upvoted this comment, and peakd says 0.019. If @dustsweeper comes along and upvotes this comment before payout, then we will know. If it doesn't, it could be because the calculations are too close and it smudged above before it checked. I should have voted a little smaller for a better experiment.
I didn't follow up before now, but dustbunny did round this comment up to 0.02, so it does follow your own votes and keep them from dusting.
This sounds great, option one looks better, but let's see what majority will go for.
Interesting ideas, when I upvote the comments (which I do regularly) they get the rewards from my vote, so this would be extra teaser to engage.
In case of solution two, how would the account get post rewards, if I don't make it as a beneficiary of the post ?
It seems like the rewards will come from the bot's comment being upvoted (assuming it gets an upvote). I guess a curation group like OCDB might handle the upvoting, similar to how they did with the Posh or Gosh projects.
I'm not entirely sure, though. I'm also curious to know the answer to your question, so I'll wait for some clarity on this as well.
Solution #1 was better I think, we already got a dev working on the idea as he and another one liked it. Let's see what it becomes when finished!
Woah 🤯 so fast. Looking forward to it. Thanks 🙏
I try and manually upvote comments on all of my posts, and posts in communities who are building and creating good content. I can only go so far so I love the idea of a mechanism that automates some of this and spreads the love further.
Interested to see what some of the bot running technical people say as that automation is a little beyond me. I would delegate for the greater cause and probably not worry about doing more than manually upvoting comments as I have enough of a small stake to make it more than dust.
Love the sharing of the wealth and letting the smaller stakes make more rewarding community impact. Good time to buy a discounted stake to make your voting power more powerful too!
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As I am here for the community and engagement and still find it hard to find engagement now even after all this time option one there seems like a good idea to me and it is something I would use.
Thank you for your thoughts man!
I do find commenting to peoples posts as well as upvoting does improve engagement but these plans both have decent pros and cons, i just know after posting every day for almost a year is that repetition is not always a guarantee for great upvotes so it helps to interact with as many people as possible so all help can be circular.
Both option 1&2,i am very well sure there was a Hive project some times ago that does EXACTLY what you are projecting.
I am sure those who have been on Hive for years can attest to it.
Maybe we should start by looking for this project again and knowing why they succeed at a time and what led to there failure.
That is true when there are comments on the publications, it is read by users who take the time not only to read but to understand what is being expressed and if we add to that what they can get, a little additional HP is much better.
I prefer situation 1 though.
It's a lovely thought.
Tipping is cool and all but most times you wouldn't want to comment on a comment but just upvote it.
I'm amazed at how quickly you come up with ideas to resolve specific issues, and both options sound feasible to me.
Comparing both options, I'm leaning toward the first one because it's less "spammy" in the comment section of the post itself. I've noticed that some communities or authors are muting token-tipping bot comments, which can mislead people about the actual level of engagement on a post. It can make it seem like the post is receiving many comments when, in fact, most are just tipping bots.
Additionally, I think the first option is less prone to abuse since the rewards would come directly from the author's post rewards. If the author genuinely wants to encourage engagement, it makes sense for them to share part of their post rewards with those who provide insightful comments.
I'm also thinking about tokenizing this system in a way that incentivizes or recognizes authors who participate. While the token might not hold the same value as $Hive or $HBD, we could develop a use case that discourages abuse by authors. I don't have a clear idea yet of what the token's use case could be, but I'll try to come up with something in the coming days.
One idea that comes to mind right now is creating a leaderboard to recognize authors and commenters who are doing well in earning @commentrewarder tokens. This could be posted on the @commentrewarder blog, with a portion of the post rewards distributed to the top-ranking authors and commenters. This would provide a space where both authors' and commenters' efforts are recognized and incentivized.
It's also a good way to track and monitor participation, as well as spot potential abuse. Any abuse can be identified and corrected if proven.
Overall, I think your proposed idea is a great start. It's a solid way to help authors engage more with their audience while ensuring thoughtful comments are fairly rewarded.
placing a comment to remind myself to read this tomorrow as I'm beat. :D
😅 No worries. Get yourself a good rest. 👍
I have a problem with not staking enough hive to reward my comments too. But as a person who sort of enjoyed math, I am always careful to spear some of my power to distribute amongst comments :D Obviously, the power of vote depends on the quality of this.
Option 1 sounds great to me! I always try to go through comments and upvote anything that seems well thought out and not just spam.
Honestly, if it's not on my posts, I don't have much time to get through many comments.
I think that rewarding comments is not a bad idea, as it acknowledges the time and dedication of the people who read the publication. It is a way to add more value to the interactions. I remember some time ago there was a project called The commentator, where comments with good content were posted and then voted by the curators. This project is no longer working, however, it was successful for some time, because the users took great pains to respond by contributing ideas.
Your proposals are different from what I propose, but essentially the same. The first option seems more attractive to me. We should try it and see how it goes this time, especially the benefit for those of us who do not have great voting power.
Of course, it is a good idea to generate feedback between users. Plus, we can reward those who take a few minutes to read our publications.
This is an interesting idea aimed at addressing the challenge of rewarding meaningful comments and engagement on Hive, especially for authors with low voting power. The proposed system of using post rewards to automatically tip commenters based on author votes adds a layer of fairness while encouraging deeper engagement.