Introduction
In line with my previous posts regarding increasing engagement I thought it would be fun to have a little competition based around a discussion topic.
Recently I've been pondering the question of free markets. So I thought we could base the discussion around this idea:
Does a truly free market exist anywhere in the world?
I will reward my favourite comment a 50 Steem Power reward.
Here are my thoughts:
My Thoughts on Free Markets
I believe there are two main issues in the way of free markets:
Firstly no matter where you are in the world and whatever kind of business you are in, there will be various regulations that you will have to deal with.
These regulations are imposed on anyone doing any kind of business by either the local or national government (often both).
These include procedural regulations (eg. information that must be filed, licenses that must be obtained etc.) as well as direct financial rules and burdens (e.g. taxation).
These are the most obvious issues but there is a second type of problem that relates to this in a more indirect manner.
The Second issue is that of existing companies having access and influence over the very politicians who create these rules and regulations.
They are therefore able to skew markets in such a way as to make it harder for competitors to succeed, making it easier for them to maintain their existing positions.
Further they can also get away with behaviour that an individual or small business would not be able to do.
Just take the recent examples of big banks refusing to pay taxes and being able to negotiate with the taxman - try doing that yourself (you will probably end up in jail).
This ultimately leads me to the following paradoxical and somewhat controversial conclusion:
It is my belief that the only truly free markets are basically black markets.
These are the only situations where people are free from government interference/regulation and the ability of vested interests (e.g. existing companies) to exert their influence.
Anyway - I wanted to keep this short so that people actually read it, so now it is over to you:
What do you think? Are there any truly free markets? Is it possible for them to exist?
Should they exist or are rules and regulations an absolute necessity?
Have your say in the comments.
I will award my favourite comment 50 SP after payout.
Thank you for reading
All uncredited images are taken from my personal Thinkstock Photography account. More information can be provided on request.
Hey, @thecryptofiend,
Here's a fascinating article I just read that (in a backhanded way) reveals why free markets are so hard to find...
My Childhood as a Renegade Entrepreneur
Thank you:)
Whenever and wherever two people engage in an uncoerced exchange, you have a free market in action. It may be a barter, it may involve payment. If it is a private transaction between two people without outside interference, that is a free market.
I would love to find just about anyplace where that could still occur these days "in the real world." It actually does at random times and places, but I long for the ideal of the "agora," nothing more than a place where people can freely bring their wares to sell, and any and everyone can bring their needs and wants and money to buy without some gang of thugs (read "city" or "state") forcing issues and collecting blood money.
I have heard of but not yet been to the Rainbow Gatherings that happen from time to time in various forests. Those may be very close to free market environments. I'm sure there are better sources of information than Wikipedia... Along similar lines is the annual Jackalope Festival in Arizona, as best as I recall primarily driven by Alma Sommer. I haven't yet been to that either.
As an agorist, I'm personally working on growing a free market enterprise, and I hope to write more about it from time to time here on Steemit.
There are beginning to be free market "virtual places" on the internet, facilitated by the use of blockchains and cryptocurrencies. "Places" like OpenBazzaar that enable peer to peer transactions. I've dabbled there, without much success thus far, but to be honest I haven't as yet made a "full court press" to try and pull in sales in that realm.
It's not yet clear to me whether or not Steemit can be or become a free market. I've had a hard time eliciting any information about "policies" or objections in that regard. I have seen a few people attempting to promote their wares here, and I may even attempt to do the same at some point.
Thanks for a great article and such an engaging question! ;)
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Thank you so much for an awesome answer! I will need to find out about Rainbow Gatherings - thanks for the links!
@thecryptofiend not here for the rewards just a fan
but they say that black markets don't deliver the best products nor services either and prone to damage and no insurance coverage. Would rather not deal with the black market though you are right - it has found its way to beat the system.
Yes that is true - if you are operating outside the law you can't complain to anyone if the quality is inadequate!
@thecryptofiend so I'd rather work with legal services and products.
Am staying away from black markets - very very risky
One of the freer markets that I've seen was an elementary school lunchroom. Seeing students trade various pieces of their brought-from-home lunches was always interesting. The street value of certain items (hot cheetos for example) amazed me.
Lol I love Cheetos too! Yes I think these kind of mini-markets are a fascinating thing to study. Thank you for commenting!
Quite so. You could see the adept business minds even in the first graders... once the market was saturated in one product, they'd move on to the next big thing.
Very cool!
I'll add an additional. .05 WANGCHANGE on top.
Be sure to leave your bts account in your creative comment as well. This is the text version of the video above. Watch the video for more details... because it pays to interact.
Thank you:)
I don't think black markets are free markets. Sure, they are not regulated. But the fact that they are underground means the state effects them, disrupting them when it can, and thus driving up prices.
Sadly we live in an unfree world.
Good point. I think that they are the closest thing though.
Correct. Remember the movie “The Third Man” (1949)
I actually voted this up yesterday. So I had to unvote and revote. Honestly I was curious as to whether there would be a difference, seeing as I am currently attached to htooms. There was a difference, thirteen cents actually, lol!
@son-of-satire's tribute was accurate and awesome. EDIT: So sorry about the rest of what I wrote here, alcohol and keyboards and me, not such a good thing.
You have been visited by droomits
This is by far as random a comment can get... lol
LOL. If you check out my page you'll understand the last part of it. The first part, I was seriously just thinking about editing. People can be very sensitive about that. I've been called He several times, didn't bother me, just corrected them. But...
EDIT: Actually between my post and the one I resteemed, you should probably understand it all.
Lol thanks!
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a truly free market, but I do believe in order to approach that, everybody needs to be paying their own bills.
For example, let's say a factory pollutes a river in order to manufacture widgets which then get sold at a profit. Is the company paying the cost of cleaning up the pollution? If so, then that cost should get put into the price of the widget. If the company is not paying for the cleanup of the river, then either the people who rely on the river for food or water are "paying" with reduced health and enjoyment of said river, or the government pays the cleanup bill at taxpayer expense. The government might make a regulation that requires company to pay its bill by cleaning up the river it messed up. The regulation might get complicated to cover for all contingencies. Then freedom minded people complain about government overreach, and they have a point.
The best solution is that the company is ethical and pays all its bills because that's the right thing to do. Then you might have something closer to a free market.
Thanks and very good point. There are perhaps hidden costs to certain activities that should be taken into account as you point out.
Not really, the precious metals market is manipulated by the central banks and the London bullion banks. The US stock markets are manipulated by the plunge protection team. Bond markets are manipulated also by central banks creating fiat. Real Estate markets are manipulated as well. Even the auto markets are manipulated. Check this out...
There are literally thousands of these "car parks" rammed full of unsold cars in practically every country on the planet. Just in case you were wondering, these images have not been Photoshopped, they are the real deal!
The car industry would never sell these cars at massive reductions in their prices to get rid of them, no they still want every buck. If they were to price these cars for a couple of thousand they would sell them. However, nobody would then buy any expensive cars and then they would end up being unsold. Its quite a pickle we have gotten ourselves into.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-16/where-worlds-unsold-cars-go-die
So there you have it, even the new car market is manipulated!
The one thing I know for sure is this, "nothing is as it seems."
This will all come crashing down, the only question is when.
And when it crashes, then we will have truly free market based on blockchain :)
Thanks - I think the point is that all markets are manipulated in a variety of ways.
Yep - my response was the 2 minute reply. There is much more detail and most is hidden from the masses. If the population realized what in fact is going on, there would be a revolution overnight.
Yes but I think people will slowly come around.
Agreed, they are waking up. I'm finding most on Steemit are awake and alive. One more reason why this is an awesome community!
Would you consider a gardener leaving his produce by the farm gate and a tin to put money into if you wanted any of his product ,free? . It happens in a freer country.
Good question. I suppose it is freer than many transactions- unless the government steps in and says he can't do it!
All markets have some type of governance. Wither implicit or explicit. Reading "Debt" right now. Even warfare is a market.
Interesting - is "Debt" a book? Do you have a link?
https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Updated-Expanded-First-Years/dp/1612194192
Debt - Updated and Expanded: The First 5,000 Years
by David Graeber
Cool thank you:)
The question is wrong. Much like everything in life, there are always degrees of freedom (if you like to take that side of the argument).
One could argue that the markets can only be free and unregulated since no single entity or group of entities can control the chaotic ways economies function.
You argue based on the premise that the government can control the economy. This is fundamentally wrong based on physical laws. I am not going to even touch the statistical part of the argument.
How can a question be wrong though?
I don't see how that could be argued at all. Just because all parameters of a system can't be controlled is not the same as it being free. They are two different matters.
I would argue that it is not for the same reason. I didn't say that the government has absolute control over the economy.
I have no idea what you mean by the statistical part.
Does chair define God? <--- This way. When there is no clear definition then a question can become too arbitrary.
Different but with the exact same end result. Even if one tries to regulate them market one will fail since the market is not dependent in one country or a foreign pact but rather trillions of economic events that take place simultaneously. In the same way, a religious ritual cannot control the weather even if the priests believe it does so. It might control the behavior of the people dancing for rain (higher expectation) but it won't affect the possibility of rainfall.
Trillions of economic and environmental events take place every second. I argue that the government, or better, the whims of a handful of people, cannot control a single bit of any economic event at any time. There is the illusion of control, sure, but there is no actual control.
I am referring to the basic numbers when it comes down to an economic decision. A politician thinks that if they regulate part A of an economic affair they can effectively control how it plays out. This is never true since no single decision can effectively address all parameters of an economic affair.
I suppose that is a matter of opinion. I don't agree.
I would largely agree but I still believe that government intervention has an impact.
I think we are in agreement here.
First we need to define what we mean with "Free-Market". In my opinion a Free-Market" has only two parts: The provider of something and the costumer and both of them can arrange the deal how they want has long as no outstanding person is hurt. The only "Free-Market" I know is changing goods/ services with your neighbours/ friends.
Thank you. That is originally how these things used to work I believe.
Dear @thecryptofiend! Very actual info!
Thanks!
There are a lot of free markets around private households. When you engage a housekeeper or a nurse. You tell them what you like to pay and they decide to work for this money or not. As you told before, it is a kind of illegal market, but it is free. Only legally free market I know is when I negotiate with my son about the lawn mowing. I say 10 Euro and he answers 15. Then I say 7.50 and he tells me okay, okay I will do it for 10. Yes all these private jobs in the neighbourhood are generated by free market. And as I know it is legal as well. A lot of private tutoring is a free market. And love is a free market. I don't mean payed love. I mean real love. Yes, now you have to think about by your own to find the explanation. It's a nice game, to think about if there are existing free markets. Thank you for the question.
Thanks for such a great answer. Some great examples. I hadn't considered love at all but I suppose one can consider it a transaction where you give love and you receive it. It is a form of social transaction - I believe @kyriacos has written about this in more depth before.
You are welcome. Love is the market where you give yourself in whole to get an other person in whole. It is one of the biggest transactions you can do in your life. And very often it is not the money what counts. There you often have to show other skills. Thanks for the interesting question.
I would agree. Thanks for taking part in the discussion!
Thank's for mentioning @kyriacos. A worthful hint. He's a very high quality author and all his stuff is worth to be read. Maybe you've remembered this article of him. I vote him much to less.
Yes he is. I think that may be the one I was thinking of.
Yeah black markets, or maybe some third world country with no government, like in deserts or villages far away from big cities.
The problem with this idea, is that black markets only exist when there is state oppression. It's actually a protected (isolated) market, just as much as it is often a horrible place to do business.
Choosing a black, over white or gray market is not a solution to the problem with state agression.
If you want to live politically free - thus allowing you to act more freely - you have to seek or establish government protection in one form of another (selfgovernment for example), from state government agression.
So are there any free markets? Yes, there are some free markets at this point in time. In fact, this blockchain could be considered one of them.
And then there are some freer geographic areas. Liberland, for example though maybe not successful anymore, has found a legal loophole that gave the founder some insulation from other governments and an oppurtunity to establish an organisation for more political freedom. This is more of a gray area solution, but still not clearly black market.
Thanks you make some very compelling points!
No - there are no free markets, this is a theoretic construct only. There has never been a free market in reality.
Free market exists when the allocation of resources is determined by supply and demand , without any government intervention. ... Supply and demand create competition, which helps ensure that the best goods or services are provided to consumers at a lower price.
The following link incl. an interesting article saying it is ore likely to find a unicorn as a free market: http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/02/27/the-myth-of-the-free-market-youll-find-a-unicorn-before-you-find-a-free-market/
However some people state some regions where it was near to a free market e.g. Uganda, Somalia and the Wild Wild West in the US in the 19th century.
Excellent points. Thanks for the link I will check it out.
Hello, @uwelang,
Reviewing the article you pointed out, I find that by its own admission, virtually all of the arguments presented there are traceable to the state as the root cause of the problems described.
Even perhaps the most superficially compelling argument in the article, that "supermarkets" have brought about the decline and fall of family farming and mom and pop food suppliers, can be traced to the often overlooked underlying fact that a supermarket is a corporation created under the authority of the state and that enjoys the protection of the state.
My conclusion?
We need to remove the state from the equation in order to see a truly free market in practice, not only in theory.
absolutely, remove the state and you have (eventually) a free market
The international black market. Discrepancies in individual state laws give orgs a lot of ability to international corporations to exploit these. Not a good example, but one where the participants don't have real rules or regulations per say I think because these actions can then technically be legal.
Interesting point!
I know little about finance, but i will give it a try for the seek of discussion
If we refer to free market as the market free from government regulation and all people have equal source of information about goods\service and equal chance of making profit according to their holding .
This market doesn't exist, even black market is affected by government regulation which lead to increase the price of item being sold, i mean the free market is about supply and demand control the price without external effect.
If i have to chose a market that can represent this idea, i will say
Creyptocurrency market
It have minimum gov influence, equal chance to everyone and the price mostly determined by supply and demand.
By the way good blog as usual @thecryptofiend
Thanks - love the cartoon!
Short Answer: Maybe?
The line between true free markets and mixed economies is very hazy. For example, the black market for opium is manipulated and controlled by the Taliban, which can be considered a governmental organization. Even though there aren't any "official" regulations or rules in that market, is this a true free market? Or how cartels, which are non-governmental organziations, can literally kill off their competition, and thereby manipulated the "free" market.
The problem with "true" free market systems right now is that they almost always devolve into oligopolistic or qausi-govermental structure, which, ironically enough, is because they are too free.
Potential Free Market Candidate
The freest market I can think of are economies in videogames. MMO players can acquire in-game currency by killing stuff and looting chests (similar to cryptomining), buy in-game currency with real world currency (similar to buying cryptocurrencies), and the closest thing to a government in MMO worlds are the devs..... like in smart currencies..... ;)
Anyways, inflation that MMOs suffer from is not because of government induced QE (really should be non-government, since the FED is not a governmental organization :P), but because MMO worlds have an endless supply of monsters that drop an endless supply of loots, with NPC vendors having an endless supply of in-game currency to match. All that's needed is an endless supply of time and suddenly World Of Warcraft is a post-scarcity society.
By the way, my favorite game market right now is the now defunct Global Trade System from Generation V Pokemon. Never before have I ever been able to trade a LV 5 Rattata for a shiny Celebi :)
Photo Credit: Celebi-Yoshi
Wow awesome answer! Yes so black markets can be manipulated and somewhat regulated in a sense too. I hadn't really considered internal game markets - will need to look into those more.
If you have some time, you might want to read A Lodging of Wayfaring Men by Paul Rosenberg. It's been long since I read it, but I believe that it tells a story of a free market being established initially via an online gaming program and the people behind it. It's an inspiring tale of anarchy and agorism. ;)
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Thanks I will check it out!
Apparently there's been some research done on WoW's monetary system, although I can't seem to find the paper(s) for it on Google.
I will have a look when I get a chance and see if I can find something.
My favorite comment
in a way 'yes'
you are free to buy or not buy.
you are free to sell or not sell.
but for things like utilities...oh well, you are free to turn off the lights.
guess not.
That is almost like a poem!
hmm... never thought of that
Hi @thecryptofiend, I just stopped back to let you know your post was one of my favourite reads and I included it in my Steemit Ramble. You can read what I wrote about your post here.
Thank you:)
When two people meet at a bar and negotiate a one night stand. There is no set pricing regulations (number of drinks or amount of witty banter required) or set rules (even though there may common practices these are not compulsory). The market decides value based on perceived attractiveness or level of demand (horniness). There is no guarantee even of offer acceptance based on investments made and no recourse for buyers remorse the next morning. Even stated terms and conditions can be broken ( get an std, they are married but lied, or it wasn't 8 inches after all etc). Both parties are buyers and sellers and no third party can interfere (they may disapprove or attempt to cockblock however this need not alter the deal).
Long live the free market!
Lol!
This has to do with owners, specifically the ones that own you and me and everyone else on the farms known as Canada, or the US, or France or Yemen. Their choices are invariably based on the profitability of the farm, not on the desires of its livestock. If this fact is lost on you, you don't know what you are and you don't understand the world you live in. Your consent is only elicited to give you a sense of belonging and thereby make you more productive, as are any freedoms granted you, but road blocks will go up if you try to desert the farm, flout its victimless rules, or, Bog forgive, cost it money or fuck with its profits. Then you will be punished.