Did you really believe them, when they told you the cause?

in Deep Dives3 years ago

Do all those who lie here know why they died
did you really believe them when they told you the cause
did you really believe that this war would end wars
well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
the killing and dying it was all done in vain
oh willy mcbride it all happened again
and again, and again, and again, and again

Once again, we're getting bogged down by the images the media is projecting on us, namely that this charade that is politics actually matters. It does not, though.

I'm shocked at how many people are refusing to see a step further than what the media is showing them. I was talking to an American (Conservative) friend, and her immediate reaction was "oh, this would've never happened if Trump was president". Which is word for word what Donald Trump said in an intervention for Fox News, only moments ago.

First of all, that's a stupid, limited, and highly egotistical argument, though if you take a quick peek into the comments, you'll see that an alarming number of Americans think this way. Oh, it's all because of Sleepy Joe! Joe Biden is a puppet, a figure on a string. At this point. And someone is going to extensive lengths to strengthen this image of Biden, for good reason. It's worth remembering that Joe Biden has been an American politician for many, many years. A lot more than my friend or myself have been alive. Now, he didn't do that by shitting himself and saying stupid things. True, he is now old, and that's definitely showing - but if you're buying the whole crazy man Biden spiel, you're letting them lead you by the nose.

Don't let them do that. Don't let them blow this politics smoke all over your face, because there's more to this. Usually, if a stance seems super easy to understand, then something is missing.

You can say "Putin is a crazy dictator, and that's why all this is happening". Obviously, this is easier to accept than going to all the trouble of geographical and economical research into NATO-Russia relations in the past 20 years. But it's also wrong.

While what Putin is doing is wrong and unfair (duh.), it's not a despotic move, but an expected, and justified one, from the POV of Russia, as a super power. If your enemy moved in across the hall from you, you'd be pretty tense, too. I was listening to an old Romanian journalist commenting on the crisis, and he put this very well, saying "Russia's been pushing for a seat at the table for a long time now. We had two options here: squeeze together to make room, or push for war". Obviously, so far, it was war. But you need to consider the reasoning, as far as you can see it, behind these moves, not just what the media is spoon-feeding you.

It's dangerous, (not) thinking like that.

Then, you can say, like my friend here, "Oh, this would've never happened if Trump was president. It's all Biden's fault". I do agree that, if we're to compare Churchill, Roosevelt, and the "greats" of WW2, our lame assembly of Boris, Macron, and Biden is pathetic, and disheartening. Once again, things are more complex than that. I know it's tempting for our American friends to assume that the Sun rises and sets from their ass, but it is skewed, and it's making you make poor judgements here. Yes, the US is a very important country in this world. Not the only one, though. To think that everything that happens in the world is a result of your petty Democrat vs Conservatives puppet-show is narrow-minded.

What we need to remember here is that most of our politicians don't matter. Look at how quickly Boris Johnson changed his tune about the covid restrictions when things were threatening to end poorly for him. Look at Macron's posturing about "preventing the Ukraine crisis", what with French elections in little over a month. I'm sorry, but if these people are truly the ones leading the way, we're screwed, regardless of what happens in Ukraine.

Similarly here, in Romania, I was recently approached by an acquaintance about protesting this weekend to overthrow our politicians. I immediately found that strange, because even if our President is kicked out on his ass tomorrow, in retribution for all the injustice and abuse of power of the past 2 years, it won't matter an inch. Interestingly, the protest is organized by a nationalist political group who are, no doubt, looking to take over. Always pay attention to who's telling you a story. Always.

But then, what other option do we have?

Ignorance is tempting.

I know. We're all coming off two harrowing, nerve-wrecking years. It's tempting to throw in the towel, to say you're no longer interested, and come what may. I get that. But ignorance is not, as you may have been told, bliss. Ignorance is what they're hoping for. Your turning around and scrolling through your TikTok feed because you don't want to know is exactly how this world dies.

So take a moment, and try to look at what's happening in a larger perspective. Because we're definitely living through interesting times. I'm reminded, once again, by that great George Carlin quote:

image.png

Sort:  

You say 'question what you read'.
Gotcha.
I'm very skeptical of what you wrote. I do indeed believe that 'this wouldn't have happened if Trump were still in charge. We reap what we sow. We allowed the steal.

Trump's politics in Ukraine led directly to this. The ambassador he removed was removed for (among other things) trying to draw attention to Putin's plans to invade Ukraine. Trump vocally supported a Russian invasion in Ukraine, and he blamed Ukraine for interfering in the 2016 election.

We did allow this steal, and Trump paved the road to it. If you can't see that, you're deliberately deceiving yourself.

Oddly enough I disagree. You do raise an interesting point. I told my wife the other day that it's Trumps fault. She asked me what was Trumps fault, wasn't Biden in charge? I told her that it was always Trumps fault, no matter what happened no matter when it happened, likely until the heat death of the universe.

If it wasn't Trumps fault then other people would be forced to take responsibilty. THAT's never going to happen.

I'm very skeptical of what you wrote.

Your prerogative.

edit: actually, I thought about it a bit better. What exactly are you skeptical of? It's not like I claimed either side was right. So what, then? That the large majority of the audience is being played and treated like drooling toddlers? That's not called skepticism, but ignorance. And as someone who's known your blog a long time, I don't believe you're ignorant.

I do indeed believe that 'this wouldn't have happened if Trump were still in charge.

Why?

And I'm sorry, I see what you're saying about some people always blaming Trump, and that's true, taking responsibility is hard - and why would you do it, if you can believably paint a scapegoat? It's true that ever since Trump left office, the media have been blaming him for anything and everything, long surpassing absurdity.
At the same time, that's not saying that Trump has no faults (in this, or in anything else). To claim that would be very narrow-minded. It's not like the things happening now, like the American military bases in Putin's side just sprung up magically the day Biden took over. And in any case, it wasn't my point to get into a "it's Biden's fault" vs "it's Trump's fault" debate. That was precisely what I was saying - such an argument is just wasting energy, while the real big boys are playing the field.

Thank you.
What am I skeptical about? Everything.
I attempt to apply the scientific method to my daily life.
I'm sure you know what the scientific method is so I won't go over it here.
However. I'm particularly skeptical about the legacy news media. I'm a viet nam era vet. I've personally caught them in flagrant lies. I don't believe anything they say with out many, many corroborating accounts.
Not that the right wing news media is any better.
Having said that it's pretty obvious that we haven't the least clue about what is really going on. I have no idea what to do about it.

One thing. According to the NOT credible news media Putin invaded the Ukraine in 2014. What did Obama do about it? He sent the Ukraine blankets. It is to be noted that Putin did NOT follow up during the Trump administration, he waited until Obama's third term in office.

Yes. Biden is a puppet. (so was obama in my opinion) Soros pulls obama's strings and Obama pulls Biden's strings.

Of course that's just a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, probably not accurate.

But like I said, the news media tells lies, they always have. History is written from the accounts presented by the news media.

Is History a lie?

Yes, the game is definitely mismatched, but we don't know if it's so behind the scenes. As you said, someone (Soros, quite likely, at least in part) is pulling Biden's strings, so the deciding power in this game isn't with Biden. So the game may be more evened out behind the scenes.

Having said that it's pretty obvious that we haven't the least clue about what is really going on. I have no idea what to do about it.

I completely agree, we have no way of knowing what is happening. In a way, not fully trusting either side reporting the situation was exactly my point. I notice a tendency on both sides to start taking for granted what they're being told, which is dangerous, regardless if you're left or right. That is, I believe, the case of the friend I was discussing in my post. I think focusing too heavily on this Trump vs. Biden debate that so consumes the U.S. takes away from what is happening now. Seems much more important to focus on whoever's pulling Biden's strings now, than on possibilities that were never realized (like Trump continuing his presidency).

What did Obama do about it? He sent the Ukraine blankets. It is to be noted that Putin did NOT follow up during the Trump administration, he waited until Obama's third term in office.

I didn't know that :) I admit I was too young to follow international affairs back in 2014. Which is why I wouldn't try to give an opinion on a situation I know little about. I'm sure there's a connection between Biden being in office and what is happening now, just like I'm sure there was a connection between him taking office and what happened in Afghanistan. But I also believe that there's someone behind all of this, orchestrating all of these seemingly unrelated moves. And they're not reacting to Biden becoming president to do so-and-so things. Rather, I think that's what they planned would happen from the beginning.

Is History a lie?

History is a story, and all stories are fictional, to some extent.

too young to follow politics in 2014? !! But...but..that was just..

(now I feel old)

I found this to be VERY interesting.

image.png

dunno. Everytime we send 'foreign aid' it goes into a dictator's pocket.
I'd say it's bad but the worst? That's a pretty high bar.

The way I see it, given the Democrats history, the fact that democrats exist is reason enough to fight them. Democrats are responsible for almost every thing bad in the history of the united states.

Not what I said, but I understand your point. I don't understand why you can't see that Trump was also a puppet (he just didn't realize it), and that a big reason why people blame him for everything is because he blames everyone else for his failures. Even if it was his fault, and I don't think it is, he would blame it on somebody else, just like every other politician.

As far as assigning fault, if that's what we're really here to do, it's Putin's fault. I thought that was obvious. Whether he takes responsibility or not, he gave the orders.

I'm unsure how any person, much less a multi billionaire, can be a puppet unawares. Care to explain?

He is easy to control, because he reacts predictably. All those missiles he sent into Syria, based on evidence that was shown later to be fake, was a prime example.

Also, he is not a multi billionaire, or wasn't before the presidency, I'm not sure now. He had many billions of dollars in debt, but that doesn't make someone a multi billionaire. It was one of the things that he always lied about. We know he lied about it because a reporter in the UK did a report detailing how it was a lie. Trump sued him for libel, slander, and a host of other things, but lost his lawsuit because everything in the article was verified to be true.

You're definition of puppet is different from mine. Everyone is affected by circumstances beyond their control

As for the rest? Your milage may vary. I don't give a UK reporter much credibility. In fact I don't give the radical left wing ANY credibility. The fact that 98% of all media reports about trump have been negative leads me to believe that the radical left wing media have an agenda.

I suspect that you are wrong about his billionaire status, along with everything else you are wrong about.

HOWEVER. It's all irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. There's no way in hell that I'd ever vote for a democrat. End of story.

You might read this. It might give you cause to reconsider what you said about 'easy to control'.

Your blinded by your cult leader. Trump did his best to give Putin every advantage he could. Dont forget in 2017 Trump revealed classified information to Russia which meant a US spy had to be extracted. I have no doubt Trump would have removed the US from NATO if he got a second term.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I'm all in favor of removing the US from NATO. In fact I think that's the least we should do. I remember what Thomas Jefferson said.

image.png

What do you think would be more successful? One group working together towards a single goal or 27 independent efforts that may or may not get in each others way?

I'm no fan of authoritarianism, fascism, or centralism in any form. Are you?
You might be interested to know:

There are currently 30 member states of NATO, with 3 aspiring states.

One more thing. I don't CARE about what other nations do. If they want to fight among themselves it's up to them. We should mind our own affairs and let them mind their own.

In theory, one group would surely be preferable. But in practice, it automatically means that some countries in this group will dominate and subdue others. It also makes us more susceptible to external machinations.

It's the ever-popular dilemma - traveling with others, you have the choice to split up or go together. Going together will mean you're stronger, but more likely to be killed, should your group encounter an enemy. Splitting up means you're less likely to all die, but also makes you individually weaker.

Who's to say going together is the right choice for our world? We don't seem to be going down a very fortunate path so far.

It is so refreshing to find someone who recognises that both sides have a viewpoint, and that the situation is far more complex than most people are willing to admit. Thank you !

The only (marginally) good thing about it is that for all his faults, Putin is very good at telling us what his intentions are and sticking to them. He also has learned the lesson (I guess from both the USSR's mistakes in Afghanistan, and the US's mistakes there and in Iraq) that military interventions should be short and sharp, with limited objectives, a clear end position, and a rapid exit plan. Georgia and Kazakhstan were both over in a matter of days, and Syria had very specific objectives and Putin didn't allow any mission creep to set in.

I hope this is over as quickly as possible and with the minimum of loss on both sides. I feel very sad for the ordinary people of Ukraine, who have become a pawn in a bigger conflict.

I feel very sad for the ordinary people of Ukraine, who have become a pawn in a bigger conflict.

Me too. I can't get it out of my head that people right now are dying. Nearby. For no reason. I see they've now announced they'll defend Kiev, which can easily turn into carnage. I hope that is not the case.

that military interventions should be short and sharp, with limited objectives, a clear end position, and a rapid exit plan.

Yes, that definitely seems to be what he's going for. It's interesting that no one in the West (at least at general population level) expected things to happen so quickly. Everyone expected there to be waiting and ultimatums and things... though in retrospect, what would've been the point in that?

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed reading this :)

Indeed, it is. Thank you. That's what I'm trying to do, through this. Already, most of the people I've spoken to are pointing fingers and starting arguments with "that crazy despot Putin". Yes, maybe. But that's also a story you're being told, and people tell stories for a reason. I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made is forget there might be a reason, all this blind trust may be leading us straight off a cliff.

Me parece muy acertada su reflexión. La política está en lo que no se dice. No parecemos querer aprender de la historia, que se repite una y otra vez. Cuántos peones deben caer en este ajedrez interminable, criminal y patético al que juegan los poderosos?
Las personas no somos fichas, el planeta no es un tablero.

¡Gracias! Desafortunadamente, creo que muchos más morirán y aún no aprenderemos nada. Estamos siendo embrutecidos por los medios y por nuestro entretenimiento. En todo caso, nos estamos moviendo hacia abajo, no hacia arriba, hacia un mayor conocimiento. Espero que este mensaje tenga algún sentido en español, está traducido.

It's clear. I usually respond in English when the author writes in that language but last night I can't find the words to express myself. This kind of topic hit me in the face so I can't mumble, it needs to be said like that. Thanks for the effort to communicate with me. I will follow your work
!PIZZA

Thank you for writing this! Hopefully it goes a little into offsetting a lot of the lies people publish on Hive to help convince others to vote for "their side".

Thank you! I don't think we should be blindly buying any information a stranger presents to us on the Internet, be it an "official" media outlet, or a fellow writer on Hive.

George Carlin is one of the few stand up comedians that really wants to reach further the common world's knowledge that people have. He arise the racionality with his shows, and does it with a rare sense of humor that is merge with intelligence.

Definitely! He really was a visionary.

Your content has been voted as a part of Encouragement program. Keep up the good work!

Use Ecency daily to boost your growth on platform!

Support Ecency
Vote for new Proposal
Delegate HP and earn more

PIZZA!

PIZZA Holders sent $PIZZA tips in this post's comments:
@ditoferrer(1/5) tipped @honeydue (x1)

Join us in Discord!