What "work" is lucylin doing? Just writing posts and managing to garner attention to them through drama and a few buddies doesn't give Hive any value. Most of the posts on Hive give Hive no value and most of them don't get read but most importantly they don't get read by people outside. So saying shit like:
I can tell you now that the rot which made steemit undesirable* is growing here.
and having Lucy as an example of that who is quite literally a nobody not only on Hive but outside as well is laughable. I'd rather throw allocation of Hive rewards at literally anyone new than have it continue being fed to an attention whore who turns 180 as soon as someone waves some upvotes in his face while shitting at the hand that fed him before.
How hilarious it would have been if someone had decided to downvote him on PoB you would've seen him post 5 times per day about everything wrong with PoB.
Can you guys come up with any content that isn't crying over someone removing free rewards you shitheads would never get on any other platforms?
You have a point. Or two.
Lately I've been on a quest to find better content.
Specifically, I want more poetry, short stories, and essays about basically anything other than Hive or politics.
Drama about Hive, stats about Hive, basically anything that references Hive, is like going to a library to read books about the library. Written by gossipy librarians. =p
Yup, and I mean hey when there's something new about Hive or some new ideas or happenings it's all good. Also when new people come here and explain their experience and what they think about it it can be interesting after having been here for so long you kind of just forget what it's like to see shit with new eyes. Making all of your posts about downvotes? Raising hell and pointing at flaws and why Hive will go to 0, etc, because you pissed off some stakeholders and no one gives a shit to counter their downvotes is really not content nor should it get rewarded.
We mainly focus on niche communities with our curation on @ocd, maybe you can find some of the posts we highlight daily there. For poetry/short stories I believe the inkwell is a good community to check out: https://peakd.com/c/hive-170798/created
Entrepreneurial Value Creation in Society).@acidyo, I am relatively new to Hive (came on-board in February thanks to @theycallmedan). I initially found Hive to be a 'breath of fresh air' and I gave extra-credit to encourage my students give it a try. Beginning in February, I transitioned away from all other forms of social media (and haven't missed that a bit). And, up until recently, I have been planning to make value-creation via Hive a mandatory term-project for my students this fall (I teach a university honors seminar on
Steem/ Hive) have also proven problematic.However, what I have witnessed the past 6 weeks or so with respect to downvotes by whales for 'over-rewarded' posts quite honestly disgusts me. @dwinblood has done an excellent job explaining why opinion-based downvotes are problematic. He has also done an excellent job summarizing why removing downvotes altogether (and other efforts to 'fix' the various abuse problems associated withHis perspective is the best I have heard. He spent lots of energy arguing against downvotes in the early days of
Steem, then, through that dialogue, began to see the 'other' perspective (or at least began to appreciate the nuanced nature of it all).Although I believe serious reform is needed with respect to the way the downvote protocol functions on Hive, I am focusing at the moment on experimenting with creative ways to deal with this issue at the tribe level, namely the Proof of Brain tribe.
When I first began dialoguing with @theycallmedan in January, and had him discuss Hive with my students in February, I was extremely bullish about Hive and its untapped potential. However, I have to say that this whole notion of 'we must be able to downvote over-rewarded posts' (and how persistent that ethos pervades this ecosystem, at least among those who hold the 'power') leaves me relatively lukewarm about Hive and its future potential.
As an outsider, I can tell you that this concept of downvoting 'over-rewarded' posts is repulsive to me (because of the message it sends to all those upvoters who are having their votes and curation rewards nullified by someone else's 'opinion'). And, it is making me seriously second-guess whether or not to incorporate some form of mandatory Hive participation into my course curriculum this fall.
In particular, your downvote of this post, which has generated an extreme amount of interesting engagement and dialogue, represents an exemplary display of bad form, imho -- and merely serves to conform the OP's argument. You disagree with some of the views expressed by the author and, as is your right, you have expressed your disagreement in the comments. However, you also felt it necessary to nullify 201 upvotes in the process. You can say that you were merely countering the upvotes of haejin/ranchorelaxo, but the reality is that you directly punished 200+ freedom-loving, critical-thinking Hivians who valued the content and the engagement and debate sparked by this post.
At this point, the one thing that gives me hope is the fact that there are many within the Proof of Brain tribe who are willing to put some creative energy into curbing the potential for downvote abuse by whales (and upvote abuse, also), while also combatting plagiarism and spam -- and letting the community-at-large decide what constitutes 'over-rewarded' content, via establishment of some objective standards.
I don't expect to change your mind with my words here. But hopefully I can provide some of the "when new people come here and explain their experience" perspective that you seem to be open to.
To summarize, imho, finding a suitable alternative for stemming abuse is paramount, if Hive is to ever be poised for exponential growth. We need an alternative that can effectively punish bad actors without simultaneously punishing good or neutral actors -- an alternative that can also keep abuse-watchers from being abusers themselves.
An 'ideal' solution is probably not feasible. However, I have no doubt that numerous 'better ways' exist. At this point, experimentation and iteration at the tribe level seems the best way to discover and flesh out some of those 'better ways'. Hopefully you are supportive of tribes seeking to do just that.
Most of the debate and comments occurred after the downvotes, whereby I even considered removing a couple after the amount of engagement it received. The downvotes occurred due to him using an example of someone who in my opinion fairly deserved the downvotes he got, had he used any other examples I may have not downvoted him with both of the accounts I downvoted with.
Your opinion in general is pretty void about downvotes. We've tried for many years not using downvotes for overrewarded content or people straight up abusing the rewardspool with mumbo jumbo such as technical analysis or now anti-vax conspiracies, downvote mana would cost upvote mana and barely anyone would use it back in the day. In the long run all it did was make everyone farm more, vote on friends, vote where they'd maximize the reward allocation to a select few, create backroom deals where they'd get higher curation off-chain kickbacks. It sucked for decentralization of stake and its wide distribution. I realize it may be hard to see where it would lead being new to Hive and not having been around the days when no one used downvotes and what occurred but that's the truth.
Now with linear curve it is even more important that downvotes affect the way we curate and allocate the rewardspool. It's now again easier to give bigger votes to friends, only a select few or willy nilly like some do such as traf and rancho. I've been someone who's been trying for five years now to distribute stake as wide as possible and as fairly as possible and at the same time can attest that most of the content on Hive compared to most other places is overrewarded, complaining about a few downvotes on the top of the top of overrewarded posts is very narrowminded.
I remember your interview with Dan and when you joined and invited a few students over which I personally curated but your concerns over not inviting your students based on downvotes for overrewarded posts makes close to 0 sense to me. I highly doubt they'd be a target of downvotes as I personally focus on those who receive those rancho votes all too often or on content that's not worth it.
I'm not against coming up with better solutions and downvotes certainly aren't the most optimal solution, using tribes to come up with better ways is great but I'm not seeing much of that. The PoB people seem to instead want to use some centralized ways of muting accounts (from their earnings even which is so baffling to me it makes me not want to look into what else they're doing at all, nor have I once posted in there because of that). Come up with better decentralized ways to handle a balanced pool allocation and you'll have my respect and I'm sure that of most Hive stakeholders as well, so much so that Hive would definitely consider implementing the better solution in another hardfork. Until then this is the best way we have and complaining endlessly about it or each scenario in and of itself isn't going to fix anything nor is any of it reward worthy in my opinion.
I think this is the crux of the 'problem' (or, disagreement, if you will).
Those with heavy
Steem/ Hive experience seem to view downvotes as a sacred cow without which the platform would have crashed and burned long ago (and this may quite well be true).As an outsider, I see the potential for downvote abuse and downvote wars as so anathema that I am now reticent to actively bring others on board until a viable alternative is in place.
In my numerous dialogues with @themarkymark about this issue (which we clearly disagree on, but about which we have been able to continue constructively dialoguing), he has stated numerous times that he basically views my concerns as a 'non-issue' (i.e. seeking a solution to a non-existent problem), that downvote abuse is rare, and that the benefits of free downvotes far outweigh the downsides.
I am looking at this from a newcomer's perspective; and I can tell you that what little bit of downvote abuse I have seen has been enough to convince me that my initial bullish view of Hive is perhaps unwarranted. The 'free downvote' represents such a stark potential for abuse of power and for ideological downvote wars and other toxic behavior, that it has seriously caused me to take a step back.
I am actively working with a handful of folks within the PoB tribe because they seem to share a similar ethos and a willingness and desire to experiment and try new ways to solve old problems. If we are successful, then perhaps Hive can adopt some of what we come up with. If not, then I will likely shift my focus away from the social-media aspect of Hive (and probably spend more time delving into SPK and other Layer 2 initiatives).
Not as much of a non-issue just a extremely small and very rare issue. There is 10,000x more upvote abuse happening on a daily basis. Yet almost no one does anything about it.
"Downvote abuse" which happens very infrequently already has a very simple solution. Upvotes! Problem solved. Post rewards are a community effort and no one person has complete say on them. If you disagree with the rewards for a post (too much or too little) you can do something about it. The real problem is rarely does anyone.
Either way, I hear about one or two people being “maliciously downvoted” every 3 months or so. I’m downvoting garbage upvotes on a daily basis for the last 4 years.
Yep it's so small of an issue but people make it a big one because money. People could instead discuss how to counter malicious downvotes and explain why they feel they are malicious instead of giving up on everything Hive is because of a few people in their eyes being unfairly downvoted.
What a waste.
It's not a waste. I still read what you wrote. =p
Thanks, I'll check those both out!
And yeah, I do enjoy feeling part of Hive.
But in another sense, I await the day that Hive is just ~so incredibly functional~ that we can just focus on using it as a social platform or writing portfolio. And make tons of money too, of course. =p
THE INTERNET IS AN ATTENTION WAR
YOUR FOCUS IS YOUR MOST VALUABLE ASSET
USER ENGAGEMENT AND NUMBER OF REAL PAGE VIEWS IS WHAT GIVES HIVE AND ALL WEBSITES THEIR "VALUE"
Hello selective reader, no if all you do is cry about downvotes for a few months and how everything is broken and then use that attention as a way to justify rewards it doesn't make you worth any rewards from that attention.
I like how you left out literally the next in my quote that change the meaning of it
DRAMA = ATTENTION = GOOD FOR HIVE
Are you seriously suggesting that you downvote people for "drama"???????
I'm not someone who actively looks for drama, but if it's general drama then go ahead, but drama over Hive or Hive's reward system is getting quite old. I'd tell them to go somewhere else but we both know there is no where else like Hive.
In other words, you personally find it tiresome and annoying.
Are you perhaps familiar with the "MUTE" function?
A lot of people ignored haejin and even muted him while he roamed free taking a lot from the reward pool while providing close to 0 value in return quite similar to this case. You can't just ignore what's going on if you care about the rewardpool and it seems you guys do care quite a lot that this user continues to take from it or maybe you just miss his writing. Vote him with other coins or tip him, the latter can't be countered. Or, you know, buy more stake to counter the people downvoting him.
THE INTERNET IS AN ATTENTION WAR
YOUR FOCUS IS YOUR MOST VALUABLE ASSET
USER ENGAGEMENT AND NUMBER OF REAL PAGE VIEWS IS WHAT GIVES HIVE AND ALL WEBSITES THEIR "VALUE"
And before you need to say it. As far as you are concerned I am a nobody too. There are likely a lot of nobodies. I am a nobody shithead.
So be it. Unlike @Lucylin I have no intentions of putting massive effort into attacking this platform or in any type of retaliation for treatment here.
It is not that important. Easy to live without.
I will speak my piece when I feel the need to do so and that is it.
That doesn't mean a nobody you don't know might be dangerous to treat as a nobody. What if they are on meds and psychotic? What if they are a trained sniper? What if they are a terrorist? What if they are a serial killer?
What if they can find you? What if they are imbalanced enough that they decide you are a target?
Yet they could still be nobody as far as you are concerned.
Now on the other hand that is a risk called life. Any of us could set off a nobody for any number of reasons and not realize it. If we lived in constant fear of that we'd be agoraphobic, xenophobic, and pretty much paralyzed in life. We might still be pretty "powerful" in an online community though. Feeling unsafe in the physical world, and like God in a digital world.
EDIT: --- funny title for a movie an serendipitous.
Yes cool words have consequences basically. What lucy said got him downvoted for months by another nobody who just happened to have a lot more stake and nobody else wanted to counter it.
That is indeed what it looked like.
I am someone who has supported some of your efforts in the past. Especially when it comes to music and such. I would/will continue to do so. I will not stop applauding the good things you do because I disagree with you in other areas. I am no whore. Yet that doesn't mean I cannot see the value of some things.
Other areas that are not valuable to me. That is personal preference.
I despise televised sports. I always have. My father loved them and it always bummed him out that his son didn't want to watch football with him. I did a few times and was bored out of my mind.
Yet a lot of people love it. So did my father.
If I had power should I be down voting all the sports posts because to me they are invaluable and to me they are a waste of time? NO.
I know you are the creator of OCD but that didn't exist during the time I am thinking of.
Think you may have me mistaken as the music thing doesn't make any sense.
I don't go around downvoting anything I think doesn't have value either, lucy just happened to be someone who ranted about shit that has close to no value while at the same time being a cunt about it. It's a social media platform, if we can't have feelings and reactions to things as humans then we may just as well go full bots.
I am fine with reactions. I just wish they were done either by ignoring, muting, or responding with words. Throwing powerful weight around doesn't make the platform look good except to those that have power which is a minority.
I'm 99.999% sure that aside from you and some other folks who read his content and/or followed him to pob his posts getting downvoted have had close to 0 effect to Hive or people without accounts yet reading him before/after.
It could be. Yet he is not the only example. He is just the most blatant example I could find. I posted quite a few times in the past two months or more I've been back about how it is better here than steemit (which is still true). Each time someone would send me a link to refute that. They were mostly one offs. While I didn't like seeing it... it wasn't yet a "where there is smoke there is fire" type of thing. The @lucylin case was blatant and obvious. It was exactly the negative crap that drove myself and others from steemit. I was never a target. I just got tired of seeing it. I started viewing steemit as a cesspool and I no longer wanted to support it.
Hive is not there. Let's learn from steemit and not repeat the mistakes made there. Some of those mistakes have already been avoided.
Just cause some do it doesn't make them look bad or the platform. I know for a fact many other smaller stakeholders agreed with those downvotes and would've cast them themselves if their weight made a dent.
You are likely correct. Yet neither you and I can truly know those perceptions (as a whole). We can guess.
Are you not involved in supporting the music community some here? If not then yes I have you confused with someone else.
I've seen some pretty low value content get up voted pretty large amounts in the past. In my opinion. I don't disagree with you completely.
Yet that was my opinion. Clearly people found value in it. I can pretty much guarantee in some of those cases you were an up voter.
You wanted the product.
Here is a question for you. If someone made a community called "Drama and Whining" would you down vote and flag the posts in there as well even though that is what it was intended for?
And even "in the present".
They love to complain about "hive specific content" and yet the "trending page" still gets loaded up with "hive specific content" anyway.
I guess that's what people want to read.
Yeah, I usually don't up vote that content just because there is SO much of it, it becomes really difficult to distinguish from the crowd.
Yet. I don't down vote it either. ;)
GREAT POINT.
PS my spelling is off atm and probably some common sense too as I just woke up, brb coffee.
You are doing fine. I am no spelling Nazi. If I understood what you are trying to say I'll never call you out on it.
Communication is the goal. If I can understand you, and you can understand me then we are good.
That's not the conclusion you want to make, there's plenty of stuff that gets random upvotes some times and sets off a chain reaction of getting to trending without anyone really have read it. I mean come on look at traf's and haejin's+rancho's votes the past year, they had a literally post using that exhaust dapp saying how much they ran that day in one sentence sit at $130 on trending.
Just cause some people manage to get on those autovotes and trails (similar to lucy I imagine), then farm them out posting some garbage daily and someone comes in disagreeing with some of those rewards or someone does that + gets personal cause of something OP may have said that doesn't mean that Hive is flawed just cause that author can't get his free rewards from auto votes without much thought.
Do you ever wonder how most of the authors that cry about "reward censorship" never received any rewards in the form of tips/subscriptions? There's recurring payments now but it is quite literally not used at all. You'd think if some whales that vote them up would be that interested to read their content they'd pay them to create it if the post rewards get downvoted, let alone maybe drop them a comment now and then.
Why not make the "trending page" based on unique page views then?
Don't people like haejin+rancho have the right (based on their stake) to upvote whatever trash they wish?
What exactly is the "moral theory" against "self-voting"?
You don't think those could be faked too?
Sure they can similar to how people can downvote whatever trash they wish.
Depends who you ask I bet, if your self-vote is big but also just a small percentage of all the upvotes your posts usually get then it's kind of frowned upon in my eyes. Along with if you have a big self-vote and at the same time the content you produce is low effort.
Can't you filter by something like "only count unique page views by logged in HIVE accounts with more than 100 HIVE-POWER" or something like that?
This doesn't sound like an "unsolvable problem".
I just don't understand what the "moral theory" is supposed to be here.
Why would you "frown upon" a large self-vote?
It could be used better than already voting on your posts that may get $50-100 per post? Look at @theycallmedan, if he'd self-vote it would feel a bit strange cause he doesn't need it, at the same time if he posted a meme or a photo with a couple words and self-voted it where his 20-40$ vote was 90% of the rewards it would be a disservice to everyone else to not downvote it a bit, no?
Disagreeing on how much reward any specific post "deserves" seems strange.
For example, if a street-musician gets a $100 tip, and they seem to be making less effort than the other street-musicians,
Does that alone give me the right to scoop that tip out of their hat and redistribute that money to the other street-musicians?
NO.
That money is not mine, and I have no right to say that street-musician doesn't "deserve" that large tip.
Also, if the street-musician put their own $100 bill into their own hat, that still wouldn't give me the right to take it out of their hat and redistribute it to the other street-musicians.
I know people like to say "it dilutes the reward pool".
But the same exact argument applies to real-life-CASH-MONEY-DOLLARS as well.
Whenever someone spends a large amount of money, they are reducing the value of your money.
If everyone stops spending, your savings actually increase in "purchasing power".
Also for the record. I didn't follow anyone to POB. I remember it being talked about possibly being created way back in the early days of #informationwar discord. Then I left.
I came back and kept seeing posts I liked from there. I tried posting there and people liked it and gave me some good discussion. That is why I am there.
@lucylin is someone I've crossed proverbial mental swords with going back to the steemit days. We often disagree on some point or another. We use very different approaches in how we communicate. Yet we also kind of know how each other do things and I'd like to think we formed a mutual respect.
One thing we both are is heavily against censorship.
Do I think his posts are sometimes abrasive and completely not how I'd do it?
Yes.
Other times I find myself chuckling or laughing my ass off.
So while I don't always like what he says. I'll fight for his right to say it.
If I really feel strongly against something he says he knows I'll speak up. We'll likely start swinging swords again and eventually will nod, shake hands, and return to our corners. :)
At least that is my mental imagery there.
With that said. There are also many areas he and I agree.
I don't think many have wanted to downvote his rewards based on just criticism about Hive or the way thinks work here. I.e. I don't think it was meant as censorship of visibility. I haven't engaged with him much but seeing how he instantly goes for the offensive and waving some kind of "I'm more intellectual than most of you" wand around I can see why people would want to downvote him for the fun of it too. I have read posts from him in the past so he already was in my "ah it's that fucking guy" memory folder and that was mostly from random people linking me to his stuff with a message of "check this idiot out".
Anyway, I'm glad he found a place where people reward him for the way he is, I guess. Though I do think PoB is just trying to pick some people bigger Hive stakeholders don't like just for marketing effect, can't wait to see Kingscrown trending there next I guess.
Also for the record. I think this is the first post of this kind I have made on hive. I also indicated in the post I have no intention of making another at the moment.
So I don't keep making these kinds of posts. Nor do I intend to. I was inspired by the quote that became the title of this post when I wrote this post.