it's so small of an issue but people make it a big one because money.
You have so misunderstood my perspective and mischaracterized it.
You say you want the perspective of newcomers, then you dismiss it.
This is perhaps more distressing to me than the problem being discussed.
giving up on everything Hive is because of a few people in their eyes being unfairly downvoted
I see this as a power dynamic that is severely flawed. This has nothing to do with money per se. When you have a system that enables powerful whales to target and abuse people and ideas they disagree with, I view that as a flaw that must be fixed before this platform can genuinely take off.
It is a flaw serious enough that it causes me pause about continuing to be a Hive evangelist. @dwinblood has characterized this extremely well and has explained how he, too, is unwilling at the present time to evangelize on behalf of Hive because of this problem.
When the 'solution' to malicious upvotes penalizes the earnest curation efforts of hundreds of 'little guys', the problem is systemic.
In summary, there are two problems here:
- the system allows powerful stakeholders to easily target and abuse others simply because they don't like them or don't like their ideas
- the system inherently punishes dozens (and oftentimes hundreds) of neutral and good actors every time one genuinely bad actor is being targeted.
Either one of those systemic problems is enough to give me pause. Fortunately, I believe they both can be creatively solved. Otherwise, I would have already checked out.
You are clearly heavily invested in this project, both financially and emotionally. I respect that. I also acknowledge that your prior investments in this project (especially the blood, sweat, and tears) makes it extremely hard for you to accept or support any major changes -- especially changes that undo prior 'fixes' to other systemic problems. That is why I am focusing my efforts on a Layer 2 solution.
I am willing to work, for a time, to try to make this a more inviting place and to try to fix what I see as underlying flaws. If I am unsuccessful in my efforts, then I will move on to something I view as more productive and more meaningful.
I think @smooth once mentioned a solution where a downvote would only penalize the rewards of the last accounts that voted on said post along with author rewards. I wonder how feasible that would be now with linear curve and if you've thought about that one before.
A simple example:
A post has 3 voters and currently at $40 rewards.
Voter A has voted it for $20, Voter B has voted it for $10 and voter C has voted it for $10 in that order.
Voter D comes in and downvotes it for $15. Author received $40-$15 /2 at payout.
Voter C gets 0 curation rewards, Voter B gets 50% curation rewards and voter A gets 100% of curation rewards.
On its face, that sounds like an improvement.
However, there are always potential unintended consequences that need to be thought through.
The downside with that idea is that I could program a bot to maliciously downvote one particular curator (someone I just don't happen to like). Every time he/she upvotes, I immediately downvote exactly that amount -- giving me unilateral power to nullify 100% of their curation rewards (if my stake is large enough).
A major takeaway (for me) from @dwinblood's recent posts and comments on this topic is that he used to be a really vocal critic of downvotes, then Dan (or Ned?) would demonstrate via game theory or simple logic how the 'fix' could also be gamed. So he (@dwinblood) became somewhat resigned to the fact that the ideals of decentralization maybe just can't be realized and it is what it is.
In that vein, I am realistic enough to admit that we will never arrive at a perfect solution. There will always be tradeoffs. There will always be the potential for abuse.
That's one of the reasons why I believe the ultimate answer may lie with Layer 2, where multiple Layer 2 tribes compete for the time and attention of Hivians, reward them with their own tokens, and have their own rules for punishing bad behavior. Also, with tribes having the freedom to create their own rules, lots of mini-experiments can happen -- one of those tribes might come up with a creative solution that will work better on Layer 1 than the current protocols. That's what I'm shooting for, at least.
We can hope. We can also experiment. If it doesn't work we learn from it, revert, change, do what we need to do.
I don't remember that but it sounds interesting.
That idea of yours might have potential. Worth and experimental test?
I guess a second layer token could do it.
That's a good place to experiment.
I like experiments. As long as people don't demand they work. We try them. Learn from them. Revert if need be. Improve if we can.
If you want to experiment you'll always have my support.
As long as a failed experiment that suddenly benefits someone is not demanded to be kept to maintain that person's benefit.
Anyway, apologies for my tone/use of language. I do care too much about Hive and its future and I lose my patience quick when I think people are coming at me with bad intentions and when I've been hammering at this discussion for what feels like forever now.
Hi. The Layer 2 options are available. Certain elements you feel you don't agree with can be removed. Therefore, on Hive, utilizing Hive's second layer option, you're free to shape the world around you so it better suits your needs.
The second layer exists, on Hive. It's a part of Hive. POB is part of Hive. LEO is part of Hive. And so on.
An individual who finds themselves in the rare situation where HIVE/HBD rewards are downvoted away consistently, but earns several different second layer tokens that stem from the same effort; that individual is still earning on Hive. The downvotes have been countered, naturally, by the systems in place. That's why they're there. Part of the reason Hive went down this path accepting Layer 2 options was to help do away with these reward disputes. So we have it but some folks have yet to accept that as part of the solution and refuse to see how it's helping. They still want to complain it's a total mess, claim no progress has been made, even shoot everyone down.
Also, the division I see you're attempting to create with this newfangled way of advertising the POB token/community doesn't sit well with me. There are better ways to get attention. No need to create a rift, then try to pull people away to the promised land, because once they're there, they're still here, on Hive.
Huh. Kind of blew my mind there. Maybe it's the lack of sleep. I never thought to consider layer 2 tokens as a counter to rewards disagreements. It is a logical approach. Is there a link that discusses the development of layer 2 in that regards? Thanks.
I can't really provide links to stuff. Sorry. I just assumed everyone knew.
You see, we didn't have those second layer options, no tribe tokens, nothing. If you got downvoted, that was it. Now that these things are actually starting to take shape, if you can't dip into one pool, cut your losses and try another one.
I don't use LEO, since my content doesn't fit. Should I still feel entitled to dip into that pool? I don't mind that I can't use it. I don't feel like I'm losing. If I can earn HIVE but not LEO, should I throw a fit? If I can earn LEO but not HIVE, should I throw a fit? It's all Hive. The consumer base is shared and connected. I don't own POB but I can still support you with this HIVE backed vote. <---- I think I just invented a new term. And I like how HIVE is universal like that. It allows for communities to develop from the ground up with a solid foundation prepared, instead of directly from scratch. Gives everyone a nice leg up.
That was the idea anyway. Something must have got lost in translation along the way. Or maybe folks just haven't figured out a way to frame it properly, in a way that makes sense.
And it's worth mentioning, this approach is far more effective if communities/tribes/businesses/Layer2/whatever work in sustainable ways.
Well, that's too bad, but it's alright. I'll keep searching. We're talking about years and thousands of articles.
I don't think it got lost in translation. I just think HIVE is that big. Your original comment definitely changed my way of thinking. Also, I have to deal with arguments on rewards outside of HIVE so I have some understanding of the issue. Markymark has a point to his concerns just as well as trostparadox everyone else. There's just so much damn emotion involved.
I kind of feel like no matter how perfect the solution, the problems will remain. It's the community and how it defines the issue that matters. If we can get to that point, an agreement, then we're headed in the right direction.
It's years of following the story. Something new to learn every day almost. How long have you been around? I've seen you around, but I don't know you.
Hive is growing, no doubt about that. Many go their own separate ways. Some shell themselves up, so I point out that connection there. That spillover effect and sharing the consumer base is one of the most valuable advantages Hive has to offer. That concept is exactly how cities work. It's how malls work. It's how department stores work so well. Go for milk, come home with three bags. The folks putting up walls; sigh
If more people understood this, they wouldn't work to chase away the things they don't like. This opens the door. Someone can work tirelessly on a game or a community or anything (I'm an artist. I want to set up shop and sell NFTs to go along with my writing), work on it, inject it directly into a solid consumer base. Someone buys an NFT, then goes and tips/votes for a video, goes to the bank (LEO), checks up on the news about their investments; investments they never thought of looking into until they came here to play Splinterlands, or shit post and have fun, not expecting to get rich but still being rewarded.
I don't like the walls either. Right now POB is promoting or 'trending' bullying by this supposed victim highlighted in the post. Lets it slide. I'm looking at it right now. And quite a few of us were called shady by one of the supporters. It's very difficult to not attach emotions to that; and they're not sad emotions. Where I come from, doing shit like that is how you get your ass kicked. Dude is running a contest and offering 100 Hive for people to come up and provide the correct insult (based on the tone and directed towards a specific list of members). And it's tagged 'funny'. LOL! Confirmed bully.
In another comment here I said I've been ignoring POB. I should have done that today, too, probably? Right?
I try not to let it bother me.
I've been sporadic on Hive since about 2019. I mostly stuck to STEM articles until this year with POB. I like the concept of writing what you wanted. I personally like the HIVE concept. POB worked for me.
I tried LEO as I liked that community engagement, but honestly it just wasn't for me. I didn't get that feeling like I did for stem.
It's your choice for ignoring POB or not. In my mind it's neither good nor bad. It's about what works for you. It's what the 1L/2L tokens are about. Personally, I'd like to get it somewhere good. It is very difficult for me to take positions right now. There are too many good arguments on both sides of the aisle.
Marky has great points. I've seen malicious upvoting on Hive and POB (my perspective only). Trost has great points as well as I've seen malicious DV'ing too. I don't know Acid, but I've read some of his posts on Piotr(?) and their activities. I only recently started learning and acting on fraud on HIVE and POB. I never realized there were so many shades of gray. Things are definitely not that easy.
Anyway, have a great evening.
I enjoy STEM content, especially when I have a moment to think clearly. I heard talk they were officially going to add an 'A' to that, and include art (didn't hear it here). Some of what I consider to be my coolest pieces rose up from nothing by allowing pareidolia to take over, then building upon the tricks my eyes played on me. Would be kinda fun to explain that to some scientists someday...
STEMgeeks community/tribe runs a tight ship, from what I've seen.
And to be fair, ignoring POB is impossible. I can still browse much of the content and support with HIVE. Just have bad luck every time I visit the actual site. Always some form of platform politics, trending. This isn't really how I like to spend my time.
Nice meeting you. Have fun out there.
I noticed it pretty early that was their agenda when that proofofbrain account was being a total dickhead to blocktrades for no apparent reason except for downvotes being cast and taking the time to explain himself why he cast those downvotes.
If anyone these guys deserve a silent treatment cause they seem to be feeding off of that attention more than what their token is feeding off of Hive.
I wasn't around for the @blocktrades stuff. Blocktrades is someone I've supported as a witness for a very long time and I use his services regularly even though there alternatives. It just works. He also continues to engage with the community and support it. I am 100% certain we might not be where we are in terms of success at all without him.
POB has a lot of people from all over the place due to people getting really interested in how valuable it's token became.
People tag all kinds of posts POB.
As to people getting carried away in POB. If I see it or notice it you can be assured I won't be afraid to speak up about it, even if it is people I consider friends.
We all make mistakes. The important thing is that we learn from them rather than repeat them.
Yourself and @nonameslefttouse have been around a whole bunch of shady characters so I am not surprised that you've both assumed some kind of agenda is going on.
Like @trostparadox has said, the current system is not optimal, some solutions are being considered and experimented with, genuine efforts are happening. No one can get it right 100% of the time but throwing around this agenda nonsense is a bad look from you both.
here and here for full context) are alarming to me.@acidyo these two comments you made (snippets from
Does the defending expand further than the back and forth here or is it something else entirely? Concerning for me (and I'd suspect others too) when you haven't looked further into Proof Of Brain to see what is being built.
Are these agendas that you speak of fuelling this fear that Proof Of Brain is taking value from HIVE?
I feel like I'm around a shady character right now, talking to you @calumam, because of what you just said. That was low. You just insulted the integrity of everyone I know. I've been here five years. I can't help it that I fucking know everybody and everybody knows me. Someone approaches me that you don't like and talks to me, that makes me shady? I approach someone and talk to them, having no idea you have a beef with them, and that somehow makes me evil? Screw you, man. Moving forward I am not giving you even one more second of my time.
When did I say anything about beef with anyone? And evil? I just said it's not a good look.
You said the below in a comment to @trostparadox;
Assuming there is some kind of agenda going on, some tactics being played, you said that. I merely pointed out that you've been around some shady characters here (no doubt since you've been here five years), and I'm not surprised at all to see these agendas being suggested.
Suit yourself. Disappointing to hear but I can understand your reaction.
Listen. That was low. And you left out this part:
I said that BEFORE you came at me with your bullshit, okay? Can you see how you lumped me into that pile of evil? I'm trying to be honest and reasonable here.
Earlier I said there's no need to throw up a wall and maintain it, yet you come and enforce the wall. So now, rather than discussing anything productive, I have to deal with your bullshit.
So you damn right I'll be frustrated. I try not to be. Doesn't always work. I am NOT the type who likes to bite their tongue. I lose my shit. Don't fucking do this to me man.
I understand where you are coming from. There was a comment thread between yourself and lucylin the other day where you talked about being in stagnate threads which don't bring anything productive.
I'll be more cautious of the wall in the future, I'm still learning in this space, I don't have the time/experience in it like yourself and some others. I'm still a big supporter of Proof Of Brain and my mind does put blinders on whenever I see this talk about agendas and tactics, especially when myself and others have been actively trying to build the platform into something great. Trying to find the middle ground has to be the goal.
For those of us in the cheap seats and don't know, who are they?
LOL @themarkymark
I'm laughing so hard right now.
I've been ignoring them and any other community that tries the same stunt. It's nothing new. PH for example.
What I'm now noticing is this entire Hive community went through hell and back. Years of stagnation turned into a consistent flow of positive results; slowly poking away at those problems. People here are refusing to give others credit when its due, they're bringing up old baggage and presenting it as new, and turning a blind eye to the progress being made. And I think that's because they spent years complaining; now they don't want to be proven wrong. So we get all this sketchy shit like some member throwing sensationalized disinformation my way as evidence this place is falling apart.
I had a feeling long ago the second layer community tokens would come with their own set of challenges. There are people here who feel entitled now to tokens from communities they openly hate, including Hive in general. Community members in lead positions should take notice and realize they're being used and manipulated. So much of this is taken for granted now, but it was intended to solve problems. We barely see a post properly tagged anymore because all they want are those tokens. They don't give a crap about their communities. They're almost all identical when it comes to content, offering very little in the form of exclusives since they're maxing out community tags. Some get downvoted because their content doesn't quite fit with the theme of the community, and they throw a fit.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I try not to get frustrated nowadays. I've witnessed nearly every step of the way here; only missed the first couple months. I can tell when people aren't being fully honest around here when it happens. There's a lot of lopsided viewpoints floating around and some of them are steering the naive in every direction but a clear path. But I guess that's the road some choose to be on. Whatever.
In @trostparadox defense he's new enough to not have been here when things were worse and may not appreciate how well curation on Hive works right now compared the the 0.001% of abusive downvotes that could possibly easily be countered. I really don't want to judge people to have ulterior motives when it comes to what it is they seem to focus on to complain about Hive but it's really not easy to give them the benefit of the doubt when there's a lot of money/profits on the line for what they adhere to. Naturally the same could be said about my intentions defending Hive out of fear that PoB might take more and more value from Hive but looking at the history of native coins there haven't really been any examples of tokens overtaking them in marketcap in the past nor would it hurt them that badly if they gained a lot of marketcap and other pairings outside of our side-chain market.
Honestly more power to 2nd layer tokens, I'd want to get my own OCD token out at some point (won't release any details about it now) but hopefully will be able to fund it and launch it on a sidechain with less fees. I'm sure ETH has learned a lot from its erc-20 tokens and even integrated some of their solutions so I'm all for people involved in these tokens to experiment and show Hive how things could improve which trostparadox seems to think I'm against even though I've commented that at least twice in this thread before now. What they seem to be doing now doesn't seem like that's their intention, though.
I can see he's wet behind the ears and I don't hold it against him. There's a strong chance as well people are simply unaware of how situations like this when boiled down to 'good vs evil' like that make the ones presenting themselves as good, appear evil. I'm not saying anyone is evil. Simply offering some perspective. And it's not fun sitting here knowing full well if I speak up or don't fully agree, I'm automatically lumped into the evil pile either. All this creates is a general pain in the ass. There's absolutely no need to place a wall between community members and maintain it.
Explain?
For instance, if you create a community about ducks and offer DUCK rewards, but people start posting geese and flamingos, they'll threaten to blow the place up if you downvote their geese and flamingos. These silly lopsided arguments about downvotes that are often blown way the hell out of proportion are on the minds of everyone who runs a community or would like to start. So they just let shit slide. Do you know how hated I'd be if I just wanted to run an actual magazine here and provide consumers with quality instead of just opening the floodgates to all that randomness? It would be WW3. The smear campaign would never end. I'd have to close my doors.
And it's worth mentioning, if one removes the downvotes and replaces with another system, that system is then what the people will lose their shit over.
You're hardly a newcomer anymore nor was that comment you replied to about the views of newcomers about downvotes, we were discussing content surrounding Hive.
Quoting @heretickitten
Yeah okay don't be so distressed snowflake, I hardly downvote nor is it any of my focus, I work on other things on Hive not to spend all my days answering to people who seem to want to get stuck on one thing and give up on Hive over it even though you're journey has started on a silver platter yet you're wasting it on the first complication that may arise.
Okay then what about the enabling of powerful whales who are constantly enabling dangerous thinking, conspiracies and other shit which outside of Hive on the rest of media is turning your country into a giant pile of fucking dogshit, mate. Shouldn't we also discuss that problem, the literal abuse of Hive's trending and making us look like we just accept any garbage with 0 engagement a couple whales decide to vote up to trending daily and make Hive look more dead than it is? Or should we just continue to cry over some of our friends missing out on some rewards because they decided to be an asshole to a whale and anyone who agrees with said whale?
Again you seem to worry about how downvotes may effect people's curation rewards yet fail to mention how shitty upvotes that lead to a lot of overrewarded content was for years giving wrongful ROI to any autovoting maximizers and all their stake too much rewards. That was fixed now in the recent HF so what you say here:
Doesn't make any sense as I accepted all these recent changes with my witness and I'm open to hearing some real solutions that "hurr durr let's limit how much an account can upvote and downvote and ignore sybil attacks cause we can't think that far ahead" or "lol let's have 1 person and others voting for it cancel an account". At the same time why are you expecting rewards to be guaranteed? Doesn't that remove the whole gamification and making good curators? It's linear curve now, to be a good curator and receive close to 12% ROI will mean being able to avoid posts that are going to get downvoted. This is now the one thing manual curators may be able to do better than autovoters and reward those curators with more trails seeing as they can avoid posts that are going to get downvoted because THEY WILL BE GOOD AT CURATING.
But no, downvotes evil, we need guaranteed 12% ROI and daily post farms so we can become like proof of stake. It's almost hilarious you're invested in a project called proof of brain yet fail to realize all those aspects about hive curation.
So give us some solutions that still don't let people farm endlessly and open up that window of abuse and at the same time keeps rewards at a moderate level when/if Hive were to rise by a lot. Is that something you've thought about as well? Say if Hive were to go up by 100x, do you think I should be making $10k per post OR do you think maybe we could possible use downvotes cleverly and without abuse to bring down the rewards a tad to make sure they're spread out more evenly to possibly 100x more users that may arrive by then.