Hi. The Layer 2 options are available. Certain elements you feel you don't agree with can be removed. Therefore, on Hive, utilizing Hive's second layer option, you're free to shape the world around you so it better suits your needs.
The second layer exists, on Hive. It's a part of Hive. POB is part of Hive. LEO is part of Hive. And so on.
An individual who finds themselves in the rare situation where HIVE/HBD rewards are downvoted away consistently, but earns several different second layer tokens that stem from the same effort; that individual is still earning on Hive. The downvotes have been countered, naturally, by the systems in place. That's why they're there. Part of the reason Hive went down this path accepting Layer 2 options was to help do away with these reward disputes. So we have it but some folks have yet to accept that as part of the solution and refuse to see how it's helping. They still want to complain it's a total mess, claim no progress has been made, even shoot everyone down.
Also, the division I see you're attempting to create with this newfangled way of advertising the POB token/community doesn't sit well with me. There are better ways to get attention. No need to create a rift, then try to pull people away to the promised land, because once they're there, they're still here, on Hive.
Huh. Kind of blew my mind there. Maybe it's the lack of sleep. I never thought to consider layer 2 tokens as a counter to rewards disagreements. It is a logical approach. Is there a link that discusses the development of layer 2 in that regards? Thanks.
I can't really provide links to stuff. Sorry. I just assumed everyone knew.
You see, we didn't have those second layer options, no tribe tokens, nothing. If you got downvoted, that was it. Now that these things are actually starting to take shape, if you can't dip into one pool, cut your losses and try another one.
I don't use LEO, since my content doesn't fit. Should I still feel entitled to dip into that pool? I don't mind that I can't use it. I don't feel like I'm losing. If I can earn HIVE but not LEO, should I throw a fit? If I can earn LEO but not HIVE, should I throw a fit? It's all Hive. The consumer base is shared and connected. I don't own POB but I can still support you with this HIVE backed vote. <---- I think I just invented a new term. And I like how HIVE is universal like that. It allows for communities to develop from the ground up with a solid foundation prepared, instead of directly from scratch. Gives everyone a nice leg up.
That was the idea anyway. Something must have got lost in translation along the way. Or maybe folks just haven't figured out a way to frame it properly, in a way that makes sense.
And it's worth mentioning, this approach is far more effective if communities/tribes/businesses/Layer2/whatever work in sustainable ways.
Well, that's too bad, but it's alright. I'll keep searching. We're talking about years and thousands of articles.
I don't think it got lost in translation. I just think HIVE is that big. Your original comment definitely changed my way of thinking. Also, I have to deal with arguments on rewards outside of HIVE so I have some understanding of the issue. Markymark has a point to his concerns just as well as trostparadox everyone else. There's just so much damn emotion involved.
I kind of feel like no matter how perfect the solution, the problems will remain. It's the community and how it defines the issue that matters. If we can get to that point, an agreement, then we're headed in the right direction.
It's years of following the story. Something new to learn every day almost. How long have you been around? I've seen you around, but I don't know you.
Hive is growing, no doubt about that. Many go their own separate ways. Some shell themselves up, so I point out that connection there. That spillover effect and sharing the consumer base is one of the most valuable advantages Hive has to offer. That concept is exactly how cities work. It's how malls work. It's how department stores work so well. Go for milk, come home with three bags. The folks putting up walls; sigh
If more people understood this, they wouldn't work to chase away the things they don't like. This opens the door. Someone can work tirelessly on a game or a community or anything (I'm an artist. I want to set up shop and sell NFTs to go along with my writing), work on it, inject it directly into a solid consumer base. Someone buys an NFT, then goes and tips/votes for a video, goes to the bank (LEO), checks up on the news about their investments; investments they never thought of looking into until they came here to play Splinterlands, or shit post and have fun, not expecting to get rich but still being rewarded.
I don't like the walls either. Right now POB is promoting or 'trending' bullying by this supposed victim highlighted in the post. Lets it slide. I'm looking at it right now. And quite a few of us were called shady by one of the supporters. It's very difficult to not attach emotions to that; and they're not sad emotions. Where I come from, doing shit like that is how you get your ass kicked. Dude is running a contest and offering 100 Hive for people to come up and provide the correct insult (based on the tone and directed towards a specific list of members). And it's tagged 'funny'. LOL! Confirmed bully.
In another comment here I said I've been ignoring POB. I should have done that today, too, probably? Right?
I try not to let it bother me.
I've been sporadic on Hive since about 2019. I mostly stuck to STEM articles until this year with POB. I like the concept of writing what you wanted. I personally like the HIVE concept. POB worked for me.
I tried LEO as I liked that community engagement, but honestly it just wasn't for me. I didn't get that feeling like I did for stem.
It's your choice for ignoring POB or not. In my mind it's neither good nor bad. It's about what works for you. It's what the 1L/2L tokens are about. Personally, I'd like to get it somewhere good. It is very difficult for me to take positions right now. There are too many good arguments on both sides of the aisle.
Marky has great points. I've seen malicious upvoting on Hive and POB (my perspective only). Trost has great points as well as I've seen malicious DV'ing too. I don't know Acid, but I've read some of his posts on Piotr(?) and their activities. I only recently started learning and acting on fraud on HIVE and POB. I never realized there were so many shades of gray. Things are definitely not that easy.
Anyway, have a great evening.
I enjoy STEM content, especially when I have a moment to think clearly. I heard talk they were officially going to add an 'A' to that, and include art (didn't hear it here). Some of what I consider to be my coolest pieces rose up from nothing by allowing pareidolia to take over, then building upon the tricks my eyes played on me. Would be kinda fun to explain that to some scientists someday...
STEMgeeks community/tribe runs a tight ship, from what I've seen.
And to be fair, ignoring POB is impossible. I can still browse much of the content and support with HIVE. Just have bad luck every time I visit the actual site. Always some form of platform politics, trending. This isn't really how I like to spend my time.
Nice meeting you. Have fun out there.
I love STEMGeeks. Their articles are legit. It's a pretty tight ship IMO. I don't think I've had a non-stem job since I was in my late 20s. My entire time in the military was water chemistry and radiation health. I was even in the same fields after I got out. Even though I'm not in either field now, I'm still involved in analysis. It definitely helps to put food on the table.
I have to admit that the drama isn't appealing. Though I do have to say that of any organization at its start without the proper level of communication. Still, considering that this is only a side activity for me I could honestly do without it. I admit that there are uses to pushing buttons, but not over several months. It doesn't do anyone at any layer justice.
It's good to meet you as well. Have a great weekend.
I noticed it pretty early that was their agenda when that proofofbrain account was being a total dickhead to blocktrades for no apparent reason except for downvotes being cast and taking the time to explain himself why he cast those downvotes.
If anyone these guys deserve a silent treatment cause they seem to be feeding off of that attention more than what their token is feeding off of Hive.
I wasn't around for the @blocktrades stuff. Blocktrades is someone I've supported as a witness for a very long time and I use his services regularly even though there alternatives. It just works. He also continues to engage with the community and support it. I am 100% certain we might not be where we are in terms of success at all without him.
POB has a lot of people from all over the place due to people getting really interested in how valuable it's token became.
People tag all kinds of posts POB.
As to people getting carried away in POB. If I see it or notice it you can be assured I won't be afraid to speak up about it, even if it is people I consider friends.
We all make mistakes. The important thing is that we learn from them rather than repeat them.
Yourself and @nonameslefttouse have been around a whole bunch of shady characters so I am not surprised that you've both assumed some kind of agenda is going on.
Like @trostparadox has said, the current system is not optimal, some solutions are being considered and experimented with, genuine efforts are happening. No one can get it right 100% of the time but throwing around this agenda nonsense is a bad look from you both.
here and here for full context) are alarming to me.@acidyo these two comments you made (snippets from
Does the defending expand further than the back and forth here or is it something else entirely? Concerning for me (and I'd suspect others too) when you haven't looked further into Proof Of Brain to see what is being built.
Are these agendas that you speak of fuelling this fear that Proof Of Brain is taking value from HIVE?
I feel like I'm around a shady character right now, talking to you @calumam, because of what you just said. That was low. You just insulted the integrity of everyone I know. I've been here five years. I can't help it that I fucking know everybody and everybody knows me. Someone approaches me that you don't like and talks to me, that makes me shady? I approach someone and talk to them, having no idea you have a beef with them, and that somehow makes me evil? Screw you, man. Moving forward I am not giving you even one more second of my time.
When did I say anything about beef with anyone? And evil? I just said it's not a good look.
You said the below in a comment to @trostparadox;
Assuming there is some kind of agenda going on, some tactics being played, you said that. I merely pointed out that you've been around some shady characters here (no doubt since you've been here five years), and I'm not surprised at all to see these agendas being suggested.
Suit yourself. Disappointing to hear but I can understand your reaction.
Listen. That was low. And you left out this part:
I said that BEFORE you came at me with your bullshit, okay? Can you see how you lumped me into that pile of evil? I'm trying to be honest and reasonable here.
Earlier I said there's no need to throw up a wall and maintain it, yet you come and enforce the wall. So now, rather than discussing anything productive, I have to deal with your bullshit.
So you damn right I'll be frustrated. I try not to be. Doesn't always work. I am NOT the type who likes to bite their tongue. I lose my shit. Don't fucking do this to me man.
I understand where you are coming from. There was a comment thread between yourself and lucylin the other day where you talked about being in stagnate threads which don't bring anything productive.
I'll be more cautious of the wall in the future, I'm still learning in this space, I don't have the time/experience in it like yourself and some others. I'm still a big supporter of Proof Of Brain and my mind does put blinders on whenever I see this talk about agendas and tactics, especially when myself and others have been actively trying to build the platform into something great. Trying to find the middle ground has to be the goal.
Do you know how many times he refused to take my advice and sort this situation of his out peacefully? Every time. Do you know how many times I've been thrown under the bus for trying? Every time.
I already know in advance, some people in some social circles here think I'm a monster. I joke about it everyday with my avatar. I straight up rub it in your faces with a big red letter 'M'. I know that if people see you talking to so and so, and they don't like so and so, you're guilty by association. Do you realize people see me talking to you or lucy or anyone, and the same thing could happen. Guilty by association. The solution was to simply stop giving a fuck what people think of me. No time for gossip. Haven't looked back since.
This place has a small town mentality. It drives me bonkers.
But I seriously don't have time for this now. That was wasted. I said I've been ignoring POB. This is why. I'm not taking sides and I hate walls/echo-chambers. It's the opposite of a welcoming environment. All I've seen are platform politics coming out of there. The rest of the content I can find elsewhere.
Thanks.Alright @calumam. I have a few minutes; that stuff you said pissed me off for the whole day.
Your words: "I just said it's not a good look."
What's up? I'm baffled. If I go out to eat and there's some dude selling crack on the patio, that's it for me? Now I can't be trusted?
Mention names. Who's shady? I'd like to know. I've spoken to a lot of people here over the years, and they are not shady. So who is it I'm supposed to be avoiding... hmmm?
then in bold and italics just like this he goes on to prop up POB,And to clarify, I see a big long speech from @trostparadox, then goes back to writing normally. In @dwinblood's post suddenly it shifts gears and POB is mentioned; positioned in a way to make it look better than the rest. I think it's only reasonable to assume there's a bit of promotion happening. And that's fine, but I feel creating a rift is unnecessary. Nobody here wants problems to go on forever. And I've seen people use similar tactics. Point at flaws the entire community shares and has to deal with, then say you're better. That sort of promotion leads to fractured markets/segregated echo-chambers. It's not known to create healthy competition. Tribes aren't in direct competition with Hive anyway. @trostparadox I apologize for not explaining myself. I never thought there was some kind of ulterior motive. I just saw what I saw; read what I read. And sometimes we're rushing through these messages, hitting send too soon.
For those of us in the cheap seats and don't know, who are they?
LOL @themarkymark
I'm laughing so hard right now.
I've been ignoring them and any other community that tries the same stunt. It's nothing new. PH for example.
What I'm now noticing is this entire Hive community went through hell and back. Years of stagnation turned into a consistent flow of positive results; slowly poking away at those problems. People here are refusing to give others credit when its due, they're bringing up old baggage and presenting it as new, and turning a blind eye to the progress being made. And I think that's because they spent years complaining; now they don't want to be proven wrong. So we get all this sketchy shit like some member throwing sensationalized disinformation my way as evidence this place is falling apart.
I had a feeling long ago the second layer community tokens would come with their own set of challenges. There are people here who feel entitled now to tokens from communities they openly hate, including Hive in general. Community members in lead positions should take notice and realize they're being used and manipulated. So much of this is taken for granted now, but it was intended to solve problems. We barely see a post properly tagged anymore because all they want are those tokens. They don't give a crap about their communities. They're almost all identical when it comes to content, offering very little in the form of exclusives since they're maxing out community tags. Some get downvoted because their content doesn't quite fit with the theme of the community, and they throw a fit.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I try not to get frustrated nowadays. I've witnessed nearly every step of the way here; only missed the first couple months. I can tell when people aren't being fully honest around here when it happens. There's a lot of lopsided viewpoints floating around and some of them are steering the naive in every direction but a clear path. But I guess that's the road some choose to be on. Whatever.
In @trostparadox defense he's new enough to not have been here when things were worse and may not appreciate how well curation on Hive works right now compared the the 0.001% of abusive downvotes that could possibly easily be countered. I really don't want to judge people to have ulterior motives when it comes to what it is they seem to focus on to complain about Hive but it's really not easy to give them the benefit of the doubt when there's a lot of money/profits on the line for what they adhere to. Naturally the same could be said about my intentions defending Hive out of fear that PoB might take more and more value from Hive but looking at the history of native coins there haven't really been any examples of tokens overtaking them in marketcap in the past nor would it hurt them that badly if they gained a lot of marketcap and other pairings outside of our side-chain market.
Honestly more power to 2nd layer tokens, I'd want to get my own OCD token out at some point (won't release any details about it now) but hopefully will be able to fund it and launch it on a sidechain with less fees. I'm sure ETH has learned a lot from its erc-20 tokens and even integrated some of their solutions so I'm all for people involved in these tokens to experiment and show Hive how things could improve which trostparadox seems to think I'm against even though I've commented that at least twice in this thread before now. What they seem to be doing now doesn't seem like that's their intention, though.
I can see he's wet behind the ears and I don't hold it against him. There's a strong chance as well people are simply unaware of how situations like this when boiled down to 'good vs evil' like that make the ones presenting themselves as good, appear evil. I'm not saying anyone is evil. Simply offering some perspective. And it's not fun sitting here knowing full well if I speak up or don't fully agree, I'm automatically lumped into the evil pile either. All this creates is a general pain in the ass. There's absolutely no need to place a wall between community members and maintain it.
Explain?
For instance, if you create a community about ducks and offer DUCK rewards, but people start posting geese and flamingos, they'll threaten to blow the place up if you downvote their geese and flamingos. These silly lopsided arguments about downvotes that are often blown way the hell out of proportion are on the minds of everyone who runs a community or would like to start. So they just let shit slide. Do you know how hated I'd be if I just wanted to run an actual magazine here and provide consumers with quality instead of just opening the floodgates to all that randomness? It would be WW3. The smear campaign would never end. I'd have to close my doors.
And it's worth mentioning, if one removes the downvotes and replaces with another system, that system is then what the people will lose their shit over.