I noticed it pretty early that was their agenda when that proofofbrain account was being a total dickhead to blocktrades for no apparent reason except for downvotes being cast and taking the time to explain himself why he cast those downvotes.
If anyone these guys deserve a silent treatment cause they seem to be feeding off of that attention more than what their token is feeding off of Hive.
I wasn't around for the @blocktrades stuff. Blocktrades is someone I've supported as a witness for a very long time and I use his services regularly even though there alternatives. It just works. He also continues to engage with the community and support it. I am 100% certain we might not be where we are in terms of success at all without him.
POB has a lot of people from all over the place due to people getting really interested in how valuable it's token became.
People tag all kinds of posts POB.
As to people getting carried away in POB. If I see it or notice it you can be assured I won't be afraid to speak up about it, even if it is people I consider friends.
We all make mistakes. The important thing is that we learn from them rather than repeat them.
Yourself and @nonameslefttouse have been around a whole bunch of shady characters so I am not surprised that you've both assumed some kind of agenda is going on.
Like @trostparadox has said, the current system is not optimal, some solutions are being considered and experimented with, genuine efforts are happening. No one can get it right 100% of the time but throwing around this agenda nonsense is a bad look from you both.
here and here for full context) are alarming to me.@acidyo these two comments you made (snippets from
Does the defending expand further than the back and forth here or is it something else entirely? Concerning for me (and I'd suspect others too) when you haven't looked further into Proof Of Brain to see what is being built.
Are these agendas that you speak of fuelling this fear that Proof Of Brain is taking value from HIVE?
I feel like I'm around a shady character right now, talking to you @calumam, because of what you just said. That was low. You just insulted the integrity of everyone I know. I've been here five years. I can't help it that I fucking know everybody and everybody knows me. Someone approaches me that you don't like and talks to me, that makes me shady? I approach someone and talk to them, having no idea you have a beef with them, and that somehow makes me evil? Screw you, man. Moving forward I am not giving you even one more second of my time.
When did I say anything about beef with anyone? And evil? I just said it's not a good look.
You said the below in a comment to @trostparadox;
Assuming there is some kind of agenda going on, some tactics being played, you said that. I merely pointed out that you've been around some shady characters here (no doubt since you've been here five years), and I'm not surprised at all to see these agendas being suggested.
Suit yourself. Disappointing to hear but I can understand your reaction.
Listen. That was low. And you left out this part:
I said that BEFORE you came at me with your bullshit, okay? Can you see how you lumped me into that pile of evil? I'm trying to be honest and reasonable here.
Earlier I said there's no need to throw up a wall and maintain it, yet you come and enforce the wall. So now, rather than discussing anything productive, I have to deal with your bullshit.
So you damn right I'll be frustrated. I try not to be. Doesn't always work. I am NOT the type who likes to bite their tongue. I lose my shit. Don't fucking do this to me man.
I understand where you are coming from. There was a comment thread between yourself and lucylin the other day where you talked about being in stagnate threads which don't bring anything productive.
I'll be more cautious of the wall in the future, I'm still learning in this space, I don't have the time/experience in it like yourself and some others. I'm still a big supporter of Proof Of Brain and my mind does put blinders on whenever I see this talk about agendas and tactics, especially when myself and others have been actively trying to build the platform into something great. Trying to find the middle ground has to be the goal.
Do you know how many times he refused to take my advice and sort this situation of his out peacefully? Every time. Do you know how many times I've been thrown under the bus for trying? Every time.
I already know in advance, some people in some social circles here think I'm a monster. I joke about it everyday with my avatar. I straight up rub it in your faces with a big red letter 'M'. I know that if people see you talking to so and so, and they don't like so and so, you're guilty by association. Do you realize people see me talking to you or lucy or anyone, and the same thing could happen. Guilty by association. The solution was to simply stop giving a fuck what people think of me. No time for gossip. Haven't looked back since.
This place has a small town mentality. It drives me bonkers.
But I seriously don't have time for this now. That was wasted. I said I've been ignoring POB. This is why. I'm not taking sides and I hate walls/echo-chambers. It's the opposite of a welcoming environment. All I've seen are platform politics coming out of there. The rest of the content I can find elsewhere.
Thanks.Alright @calumam. I have a few minutes; that stuff you said pissed me off for the whole day.
Your words: "I just said it's not a good look."
What's up? I'm baffled. If I go out to eat and there's some dude selling crack on the patio, that's it for me? Now I can't be trusted?
Mention names. Who's shady? I'd like to know. I've spoken to a lot of people here over the years, and they are not shady. So who is it I'm supposed to be avoiding... hmmm?
then in bold and italics just like this he goes on to prop up POB,And to clarify, I see a big long speech from @trostparadox, then goes back to writing normally. In @dwinblood's post suddenly it shifts gears and POB is mentioned; positioned in a way to make it look better than the rest. I think it's only reasonable to assume there's a bit of promotion happening. And that's fine, but I feel creating a rift is unnecessary. Nobody here wants problems to go on forever. And I've seen people use similar tactics. Point at flaws the entire community shares and has to deal with, then say you're better. That sort of promotion leads to fractured markets/segregated echo-chambers. It's not known to create healthy competition. Tribes aren't in direct competition with Hive anyway. @trostparadox I apologize for not explaining myself. I never thought there was some kind of ulterior motive. I just saw what I saw; read what I read. And sometimes we're rushing through these messages, hitting send too soon.
I try not to read too much into individual comments. There were a few assumptions you made that left me scratching my head. Alas, no worries!
I have been pro-Hive from the first time I heard about it. However, my first impressions were, "Wow, onboarding is WAY too difficult" (and, subsequently, my students had the same first impression).
I have shared my enthusiasm about Hive with a LOT of people the past few months. So, far, although several have onboarded, none have truly embraced it.
That has left me thinking, "What's missing?" That has also left me thinking, "What other obstacles might turn folks away?" In that vein, when I observe things that turn me away, I have to ask myself how much might that turn away other people I know.
This concept of downvoting 'over-rewarded' posts is one of those. Bigger than that, though, is the potential weaponization of 'free downvotes'. I have observed downvotes being weaponized in a small way. I have spoken a fair bit with 'veterans' who've been around a long time and I understand some of the history (but by no means all, or even close to it). I view the current protocol as having provided a much-needed solution to a serious problem. However, I also view it as desperately needing to be replaced by a more creative solution. I have thrown around the term 'flaw' when referring to the current protocol and, in retrospect, I used that term far too flippantly.
I am convinced that the current protocol was needed. I am also convinced that a new protocol is needed before Hive can progress to the next level -- so convinced that I am focusing most of my 'work' here on figuring out that solution. I am not here to gripe about problems. I am here to propose solutions. I am not here to create divisions and factions. And, although I am convinced that a Layer 1 change will eventually be needed, I am equally convinced that Layer 2 experiments are the way to sort out what might and might not work.
I have been following @dwinblood and appreciating his writing and thought processes for quite some time, and dialoguing with him a fair bit. He is probably the wisest Hivian I've met thus far. I believe we can all benefit a great deal from listening to him and dialoguing with him. He identified what he felt was the 'flawed nature' of the downvote protocols years ago, and openly complained about them, and engaged in constructive dialogue with those in positions of power. In the end, he concluded that the current protocol may simply be 'the best we can do'. Even so, he has demonstrated that he is willing to step into the fray and call out abusive behavior when he sees it.
One huge benefit of this current dialogue, imho, has been some of the clarity @dwinblood has brought to the conversation, especially with respect to 'over-rewarded' posts. As he has aptly pointed out, downvoting a post to $0 (for a post that is not plagiarism or some other form of fraud) is not really about the post being 'over-rewarded' -- such actions are abusive, not just to the author, but to all those who upvoted that author. This is one of the things we are actively working on within the PoB tribe -- can we establish a community-driven objective method for adjudicating whether a post is indeed 'over-rewarded'?
In closing, I don't see the folks here as either 'evil' or 'good'. I focus on ideas and arguments; and, I am a systems-level thinker. I try to evaluate things at the system-level, to see if the system can withstand various forces, pressures, attacks from without and within, etc. As such, I don't mean for any of my criticisms to be applied personally and I rarely take criticisms personally.
Yeah, let's just stick with that above, and >That was wasted.
I try not to publish comments later on at night and this string has further reinforced the need to be cautious of that. Some clarity would have helped the situation.
For those of us in the cheap seats and don't know, who are they?
LOL @themarkymark
I'm laughing so hard right now.
I've been ignoring them and any other community that tries the same stunt. It's nothing new. PH for example.
What I'm now noticing is this entire Hive community went through hell and back. Years of stagnation turned into a consistent flow of positive results; slowly poking away at those problems. People here are refusing to give others credit when its due, they're bringing up old baggage and presenting it as new, and turning a blind eye to the progress being made. And I think that's because they spent years complaining; now they don't want to be proven wrong. So we get all this sketchy shit like some member throwing sensationalized disinformation my way as evidence this place is falling apart.
I had a feeling long ago the second layer community tokens would come with their own set of challenges. There are people here who feel entitled now to tokens from communities they openly hate, including Hive in general. Community members in lead positions should take notice and realize they're being used and manipulated. So much of this is taken for granted now, but it was intended to solve problems. We barely see a post properly tagged anymore because all they want are those tokens. They don't give a crap about their communities. They're almost all identical when it comes to content, offering very little in the form of exclusives since they're maxing out community tags. Some get downvoted because their content doesn't quite fit with the theme of the community, and they throw a fit.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I try not to get frustrated nowadays. I've witnessed nearly every step of the way here; only missed the first couple months. I can tell when people aren't being fully honest around here when it happens. There's a lot of lopsided viewpoints floating around and some of them are steering the naive in every direction but a clear path. But I guess that's the road some choose to be on. Whatever.
In @trostparadox defense he's new enough to not have been here when things were worse and may not appreciate how well curation on Hive works right now compared the the 0.001% of abusive downvotes that could possibly easily be countered. I really don't want to judge people to have ulterior motives when it comes to what it is they seem to focus on to complain about Hive but it's really not easy to give them the benefit of the doubt when there's a lot of money/profits on the line for what they adhere to. Naturally the same could be said about my intentions defending Hive out of fear that PoB might take more and more value from Hive but looking at the history of native coins there haven't really been any examples of tokens overtaking them in marketcap in the past nor would it hurt them that badly if they gained a lot of marketcap and other pairings outside of our side-chain market.
Honestly more power to 2nd layer tokens, I'd want to get my own OCD token out at some point (won't release any details about it now) but hopefully will be able to fund it and launch it on a sidechain with less fees. I'm sure ETH has learned a lot from its erc-20 tokens and even integrated some of their solutions so I'm all for people involved in these tokens to experiment and show Hive how things could improve which trostparadox seems to think I'm against even though I've commented that at least twice in this thread before now. What they seem to be doing now doesn't seem like that's their intention, though.
I can see he's wet behind the ears and I don't hold it against him. There's a strong chance as well people are simply unaware of how situations like this when boiled down to 'good vs evil' like that make the ones presenting themselves as good, appear evil. I'm not saying anyone is evil. Simply offering some perspective. And it's not fun sitting here knowing full well if I speak up or don't fully agree, I'm automatically lumped into the evil pile either. All this creates is a general pain in the ass. There's absolutely no need to place a wall between community members and maintain it.
Explain?
For instance, if you create a community about ducks and offer DUCK rewards, but people start posting geese and flamingos, they'll threaten to blow the place up if you downvote their geese and flamingos. These silly lopsided arguments about downvotes that are often blown way the hell out of proportion are on the minds of everyone who runs a community or would like to start. So they just let shit slide. Do you know how hated I'd be if I just wanted to run an actual magazine here and provide consumers with quality instead of just opening the floodgates to all that randomness? It would be WW3. The smear campaign would never end. I'd have to close my doors.
And it's worth mentioning, if one removes the downvotes and replaces with another system, that system is then what the people will lose their shit over.