May I be really honest here?
(real question)
I'm wincing as I write this as I know it will ruffle some (probably many) feathers, but I have to be true to my word to call us out so we can get better, as I have talked about in other articles such as this one.
I'm so sorry for what I'm about to say. Really. Big breath.
But.. the poetry on here getting upvoted (for the most part, not always) is.. so...
...
........
.................bad.
(There, I said it). Like really bad. Wince-worthy and painful to anyone who values the written word and the tradition of literature in the world.
I went over to the poetry section tonight to try to get to know some fellow writers as that is a goal of mine here, but I couldn't find anything that I could authentically comment on, without just being really critical and telling them I winced through the whole thing (so obviously I didn't comment). And these were the ones getting sometimes 100s of upvotes.
None of this stuff would ever have a remote chance to get published--and rightly so. How is it doing so well here?
It's not jealous at all (because trust me, you couldn't pay me to put my name on stuff like that), but it is an authentic experience of dismay--wide-eyed, bewildered, confused dismay.
(actual dismay)
I know it seems unkind to say it, but I just feel more and more that it needs to be said. Our tastes on the whole as a society have become horrendous. It turns my stomach.
I know I am officially "no one" and there isn't really any specific reason you should listen to me. I'm not published as a poet, with some minor exceptions, as poetry hasn't been a focus of mine until recently--but I am a skilled singer-songwriter with an emphasis on lyrical content, and have quite a few credentials there in terms of my professional work (I have written with Grammy-winning writers, travelled all over for my work, worked with a record label for a while, have won awards for my writing, etc., and, more than all of that, people who I respect in turn value and authentically respect my work, which is probably the most valuable credential to me).
Anyways, credentials or not, someone has to say it.
Perhaps you are one of those people who likes those poems, or even upvoted them. Or maybe even authored them. To be clear, I don't think this makes you some kind of bad person. (Contrary to popular belief, we can actually distinguish those things, even though much of the world has trouble understanding that.) But I really don't understand how we have come to so devalue quality work that those are the kinds of works receiving attention here.
I honestly thought Steemit was better than that! And I don't mean that cruelly or sarcastically: I mean it with utter sincerity. I thought I would find better quality work here than I've seen elsewhere. It's hard to see that that is not the case, on the whole.
Just because you throw some sentimental words together that express something you feel deeply doesn't make it poetry or art. It just makes it sentimental words thrown together.
(actual face palm)
How did we get here culturally? How did we completely lose a sense of what is actually worthy of our approbation?
I'm at a loss. What's the conversation we need to have to remedy this? Is there even one we can have? I'm really at a loss when I see what I saw tonight. Is it even worth saying anything, or trying to start a conversation, especially at the risk of likely taking a lot of flack for it and maybe hurting some people who feel they are giving their best?
Now, to be clear for my new readers: I'm not trying to take the wind out of the sails of budding artists. I'm not trying to be some kind of annoying elitist. But I have to be true to my word to call out dross when I see it, and I am seeing it disappointingly often here on Steemit--a community which I firmly believe is much better and more intelligent than that from what I've seen in other areas. To my mind, every budding writer deserves the dignity of being challenged so they can actually become the artists they are capable of becoming. An English teacher of mine who was not unkind but was willing to be critical of my writing was crucial for me developing as a writer.
I'm not looking for established Dylans and Eliots and Frosts and Dickinsons. Really. I'm just looking for REAL poetry that has the at least flickering quality of brilliance and enchantment that is the hallmark of good creative writing. Such as these:
https://steemit.com/poetry/@artedellavita/once-upon-you-a-poem
https://steemit.com/story/@prufarchy/to-the-lover-original
https://steemit.com/story/@prufarchy/stir-in-the-air-original
(please go and upvote these ones if you get what I'm trying to say in all of this)
I'll say it again: just writing a journal entry and adding random spacing does not make it a poem. It makes it a journal entry with awkward spacing that is now for some reason being shared publicly.
I'm very open to a discussion about this. We NEED to talk about it and at least just start somewhere. I want Steemit to be a place that curates and celebrates authentically great art, and I believe we can get there.
(wincing as I press post and sending love to all of the potentially wounded artistic souls)
(actual wincing)
Xx, Kay
If you're interested in staying involved in the unfolding of this conversation, don't forget to follow @kayclarity. I write about art, life, the world on Steemit, and post my own poetry and music.
Is there such a thing as "Bad Poetry"? Very subjective to what the audience wants to hear. Why don't you judge mine. https://steemit.com/poetry/@oceancoinz/poem-loneliness
Yes. There are objective measurements for good and bad writing.
Never said writing, poetry comes from your heart not from grammatical errors.
I agree with kayclarity. It is not as subjective as you might think. Read Bourdieu's "Distinction - a social critique of the judgement of taste". Matters for any kind of art.
Great read btw. Most definitely you can agree, again its my own opinion. Different people like different poetry. What one person might hate, another person might love.
I understand that spam can come into play here in any blog, however, write a piece of poetry about death and see how many people love it, so it's very subjective.
Only Sith Lords deal in absolutes, lol
If all you do is talk about judging poetry, but can you write a piece of art yourself. Some people will read about how to write poetry because they took some college class, but they have never experienced themselves.
Ultimately, bashing other steemit users is not going to get you anywhere in this environment. But, some people thrive off negativity. ;)
Cheers.
You are right with the sith...a social theory like Bourdieus is of course just based on an average evaluation. So I cannot give an example on poem or writing amd my english is not the best, but I try to show my point of view somehow. I am a musician. And as such, you are focussing similar issues. F.ex. if you play Cohens Hallelujah on the piano you got millions of clicks on youtube and the girls like it (I alos do so sometimes, because I know). But the skills that you need to do so are 1% of what you need to play lets say a fugue of Bach. But reputation is the other way around. This absolutely has nothing to do with any individual point of view . It's exactly the distinction that Bourdieu is talking about (but here to the disadvantage of the one who played Bach). Shows where the most people are at, almost like a revelation. Problem is, that culture can not grow if people with influence support this "Cohen gets all, Bach almost nothing" -thing. Becoming a highest and best self (like classical humanists and today some post-modern philosophers want you to and I agree on them) is totally corrupted if there is no change in supporting real quality, real skills, real art and real individualism. This is not for trashing anyone, but supporting those, that want to go forward. Cohens Hallelujah played on a wedding since everyone saw the priest singing it on Youtube? Sucks! It's second verse is about divorce! But doesn't matter for anyone because it is such a lovely "romantic" piece of music. Sucks even if those people don't want to die Wagners Liebestod. Or like we have got here in germany, we've got a clothes company called outfittery. They advertise clothes in main TV channels and they tell you that they are gathering together clothes individually for you (and you buy it and get a nice parcel)... But if you put them clothes on you go outside and you are looking like any other person. And people are satisfied with that. The ones that are ahead should not be those who sell the hot clothes from three years ago to cohen-minded people and make huge profits to dress them all the same by let them believe that's individual and a must have. Its not! Its shit! Playing Yiruma "River flows in you" or Cohens Hallelujah... it's shit, skills of three weeks piano playing needed. Instead of making profit out of such trend the people that are ahead should tell the others: Thats even not 1% of potential you can get from art. Listen to Bach, not to Cohen.
LOL, nice, would love to hear your music. BTW, I saw your comment about Sheldon on the Big Bang theory, so funny I thought the same.
Cheers mate.
I've got some steemed here, no Bach yet;) Feel free to check it out! Cheers
Will do. Followed ya.
There is definitely such a thing as bad poetry. Definitely. Just because we live in a world that has become accustomed to poor quality art doesn't mean it isn't poor quality. It just means lot of people like poor quality. Just because lots of people eat McDonald's doesn't make it good food.
Are you really asking? I'm assuming you mostly just want to prove a point and get people to check out your work? But I'll answer, although my goal isn't particular critique, but rather a more evaluative culture on here where we take time to actually think about the quality of the things we support with a view to the culture we desire to create.
In honesty: your poem is okay. It's not the worst, and there are some good elements to it, but I think you could grow as a writer and do a lot better. I say that with honesty and without any venom.
Glad you responded. As a community steemit is learning and this blog presents a great opportunity for to teach the ways of the force when it comes to creating the perfect poem. I think it would be wonderful to take the pain and anguish that you have towards these poems you dislike and create a tutorial on how to create the perfect poem. You should add an example of your own literary masterpiece using your own rules and creativity.
What do you think? Anyways, I hope your endeavors on steemit are met well beyond your expectations.
Cheers.
Ocean
Thanks for your gracious response--this is what I love about Steemit: that conversations like this are possible without devolving into name-calling and dramarama. I don't necessarily believe someone has to be able to produce a masterpiece in order to critique, but in time I will be definitely sharing some more of my work, as well as offering some basic needs for a good poem in the form of writing tips.
Thanks for the idea - hope I get to actually doing that at some point.
Take care. Xx, Kay
No problem. You have a great weekend and take care also.
On a re-read, there are aspects of it I appreciate more fully now--some interesting word ideas and pairings. I think you've got a good instinct as a writer and will only get better if you work at it. That's what I'm doing, too.
It'll just be a lot stronger and more fully communicate what you want to say if you avoid some of the cliches.
LMAO calling out some Stemians... i'd be interested in the poetry you can create? please do
The thing is, I don't even expect professional quality--just actual poetry. I'm not saying I'm the best poet ever.. just that I think I do make actual poetry and want others who are doing the same to get the upvotes and encouragement from the community.. :).
It's a scary endeavour! lol
I have a couple of up --not my absolutely best work, but I think worth reading. They are a way back.. and I will be posting more.
sounds good :)
I think I can add to this subject... okay, I will start by saying I'm not a poet, I'm involved in visual art. And I will state that I don't fundamentally disagree. However, I do have some questions. are not the metrics by which you measure the quality of a poem the subjective interpretations of individuals who created rules for what a good poem is? If so, what is it that allows these individuals qualified to make that distinction? It seems to me that style and form go through motions throughout history. These shifts in mass perception of art are expansive, and impossible to trace the catalyst in most cases. Currently, shifts in the lexicon, and an eroding public education system (in the US at least) may account for the interest in a less complex form of poetry, one which is more accessible... even understood by appealing to instinctual emotions instead of intellectual ones.
Also, I would say that people often like what they are told to like. I see this most radically in the CIA funding of Jackson pollock as a means of countering Russian realism, and establishing the US as a cultural center during the Cold War.
Van gough also illustrates this, hated in his life time, beloved after. Was his art good or bad? Depends on when you were alive.
Is Kanye a good lyricist? Does he write his own lyrics?
But perhaps the only problem with labeling something as good or bad is a semantic one. How does an objective qualifier get attached to a subjective piece of art? How do you define good and bad? Does it have an ethical implication? Perhaps it's more accurate to say I like this, or I don't, for so and so reason.
Anyway, thank you for bringing up this subject, it's something I think about a lot! (Don't get me started on implied, perceived, and intrinsic meaning...) I hope that this topic will continue to be openly discussed here, I enjoyed reading all the comments! I will be following you for more!
Hahah I like your facial expressions :)
I completely understand you, same is in the drawing section. So many bad sketches get upvoted. A bit of disappointment. I hope that things will change.
I think we need to really start to have a conversation about it on here on the regular if we want to see things change a bit! I honestly think Steemit, especially because it is relatively young as a site and phenomenon, could become a quality-control place over time and actually become a bit cutting edge in terms of holding up excellent work. Am I just a dreamer? Going to follow you because I want to keep in touch with you about this!
I must say that I agree. I have seen some truly horrible poems on here, usually they look as if the person just spit it on the page, sort of like:
Rage
Sitting alone
Agony
For you
I long
And wait
In my room
Shivering
Okay that was a made up example but not far from what I'm talking about. I'll never put someone's writing down or even critique it. I'm no professional. I have two poems on here. One was for a poetry dice contest so it was just a quick write for fun, and the other is one I wrote years ago and thought it was nice enough to share, but not so close to my heart that I would be devastated if someone ripped it off. I feel so bad though that I can't bring myself to upvote when I find a blogger's poetry really awful. I don't feel being phony nice is doing them any favors. I will say to each their own, but I definitely know what you mean.
I laughed out loud. You captured it.. and.. frankly? If you posted that you'd probably get a decent amount of upvotes! That's your ticket right there.
I'm not really interested in critiquing specific poems either; very few people do well in response to unsolicited criticism. I'm just hoping to open up a conversation so more people can be more evaluative about what they support, and more intentional about seeking out the good quality posts.
Don't upvote the dross! I'm with you in it--I won't be unkind, but I won't ever let myself upvote something I think is terrible. It's not right somehow.
Also.. gonna follow because I want to try to build a bit of a community of serious writers and thinkers on here. Xx, Kay
Thanks! Following you too. I like that we're brave enough to speak your mind.
Holy shite @renodakota, that poem in RAD! ahahaha... see, just goes to prove a point too. ;)
Lol! Thanks! I mean, if you're just starting, I'll give it a pass but....
That's a good policy. I always find if I can't get past two lines that's probably not a good sign.
This has inspired me to post some poetry. Give me 10 minutes!
lol! Well, keep in mind that the cheesier you make it the better you'll do, if you want to make a quick buck.
@kayclarity - I agree with you. I am no poet or even connoisseur of poetry but some people are posting some lines, calling them poetry and getting them upvoted with bots as well as the sympathetic senior Steemians. I do understand poetic license and the need to abandon the basic form of language sometimes, in favor of freedom of expression but at least let the sentence make SENSE people!! I salute you for noticing it and raising your voice. *Steemit is a platform of intellectuals as far as I can feel it so far. Let it not be turned into a money making ATM machine by such people! Upvoted
I am trying to put some effort into my passion. I could have tried to just post some of my wildlife pictures (or even downloaded some sensational shots from internet) and made numerous posts to try and make money. However, I am trying to focus on providing some quality read and visual info to Steemians. I do not know if you agree but if you want to take a look, I would welcome your comments on my latest blogs. Thanks
Apparently I'm already following you.. which means when I checked I thought you were doing good work! I only do authentic follows! Keep up the fab comments, too, friend! xx
Thank you for your appreciation. Do try to let me know through your comments if you like anything in my blogs and keep up your good work. Have a great day friend.
Thank you so much for your great comment! Yes. There is room for artistic license, but boring, tired cliches? And random of bits of trying to sound "deep" and "smart"? Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck!
I will definitely take a look! xx
I have had similar experiences with both poetry and fiction, though I have had more success finding good writers in the latter category. I can only speculate about the reasons why certain posts become popular. I suppose it is hard to know why a poem appeals to a person, let alone many people. Does it speak to them in some way? What if there is no clear meaning? To steal a line from the most interesting man in the world... I don't write poetry often, but when I am more satisfied with my work when I apply a few principles. For example, I like to structure it around two ideas that can contrast with and augment each other. A good example is an image overlayed with some sentiment that I can relate to that image. Follow this relationship and it may lead to some startling conclusions. The effect is more powerful than simply explaining the concept because of the power of poetry to seduce the other "senses" of our mind that want rhythm and sights and surprise. These goals provide structure for me. It is not a question of whether good poetry is made up of one kind of meter or another. It is not a matter of whether we are using allusion or alliteration or masucline versus feminine rhyms. These are tools, and the quality of a building is not measured by the tools or even the architectural features used. A terrible poem can still have perfect execution of all kinds of classical elements. It can be well constructed and empty and unaffecting. However, one can hardly make a lasting or pleasing structure without using the right tool for the job. I guess that is what it comes down to for me. I look at the core idea and ask, what tools will give the most impact to my idea? People get hung up on being judged or how subjective poetry may be. But there is no doubt that certain techniques have certain effects and that poetry is no different than anything else humans have done, in that there are always things to learn and master. Technical perfection may not be the judge of good poetry, but why wouldn't you want to learn the techniques available to bring your ideas to their maximum potential?
Ah this comment is AMAZING. I'm too rushed to give you a deserving response, but thank you so much for your contribution! Super helpful! I hope lots of people read this! Keep in touch, k? Xx, Kay
I appreciate the sentiment! Thanks! Yes I will be around. I've even followed you :-). I was thinking about writing a longer post about this and maybe I will when I find the right words. I guess if I were to put it more concisely.... People look at the standards that have been set and say, why should I be judged by those? Why should I write for anyone else's pleasure but my own? They are right. You shouldn't write for anyone else if you don't want to. And that is where the so called "rules" come in, and by the way I don't call them rules. It is like the boxer who trains everyday and wins the title, but ultimately says I didn't do this to win adulation and awards. A lot of other people can do that too. No, I did this for my own reasons to become my own personal best, because I am the only person on this earth who can do that.
::cackle::
I try and remain a bit positive when people are trying to get in the flow and let go. That said, I have always been the one sitting on the sidelines wondering how my stuff is so overlooked while others that seem less polished make the gains and get the praise -- yet, I remain upbeat about the process as that seems to be the point (in the end, imo).
There is a large amount of very difficult art to process in the world, this is a fact. I've come to think that the people making it (by enlarge) are somehow connected to a clique of sorts.
I studied oil painting at university and what I was always told was it's the dealers and curators that make the stars, that actual ability and talent can have little to do with it -- it sure looks that way to me sometimes.
As a person who has contributed a fair bit of poetry, I am some what offended to fall under the wince-worthy group of poets on Steemit atleast by your standards. I won't say any more because your opinion is of value, to me and to many others.
Thanks for chiming in. I have no desire to offend anyone in particular, and in some ways, it's more painful for me than someone I might offend, as I know it can be very hard to hear. That's not my goal, although I knew in posting that it may be an unfortunate side effect. What I actually want is to start a conversation about these things so everyone can start to learn and grow as artists and writers. Most people submitting poems likely have some kind of good writer's intuition--it is just something that needs developing. Everyone needs a good teacher. Literally everyone. I think we also all benefit from reading the really good poems that have stood the test of time, and trying to understand what it is about them that makes them good, and then working hard to apply some of those principles.
@kayclarity These pics are funny Kay, Xx ;)
Haha glad you like them :). I giggled when I posted them. Long time, friend! xx!
Naturally I assume you're speaking about me. 😃
Well, if so, I try.
In Fact I wrote a little poem to explain myself.
It's called:
Poetic Pretension
The inclination to give perception,
of eloquent literary invention,
may cause an author's attention,
to submit to poetic pretension.
The serious poets curse,
may be to write in fanciful verse.
With works that appear,
a mix of King James and Shakespeare.
Though temptation may beguile,
still I resist that style.
Perhaps because my muse,
is closer to Seuss.
😃
Even if I am included in your critique, overall I agree with you.
Honestly, I don't remember specific names and wasn't aiming to shoot down particular people--it's more just an unfortunate consequence of a necessary conversation!
But you seem to respond if good humour if so.. :)
I'm not sure if you've had a chance to flip through some of my other articles, but light-heartedness and quality entertainment and levity in general don't automatically fall under "bad" for me. I think Dr. Suess was brilliant. And I think Winnie the Pooh is absolute genius. Writers are notorious for taking themselves too seriously, so when one can get out of him or herself a little in a way that is perceptive and clever.. I love it! :)
It's only words and words are all I have… and beauty is in the eye/ear/mind of the subjective beholder!
To some extent the experience of beauty is subjective.. but only to some extent. There are objective standards to good and bad writing. There are things not to my taste, but I wouldn't call them bad. That's different than just plain bad. I think it's important we talk about this more so everyone here can improve together and we can really and truly create good art.
I believe you are are raising a valid point of concern re: Bad Poetry. Steemit is like the wild west with writers staking their early claim… repressed writers, deep and meaningful ones, shallow ones, random ones, etc… are people using the platform for a voice or just looking to make pennies from their posts? Perhaps there are some poems that are just plain bad but receive positive reinforcement from votes and rewards, creating a skewed sense of belief in the writer/poet… and some great posts receive little attention and votes… Perhaps an objective competency checklist would help? Addressing the principles of good writing skills? What will be some of the competencies on that checklist? Where will imagination and creativity fit into that "objective" checklist? I sense a new post brewing @kayclarity?
You are brave, and might be just a bit cuckoo for cocoa puffs, frankly that's a great combo. Well meant, actual constructive criticism from people who really wish to help is taken so badly so often that it's very discouraging and so I applaud you facing it...(those expressions are priceless).
This coming from a lazy, free verse, poet!
haha - well thanks for your quirky encouragement :). Like I said, it's not about trying to get people to stop writing or sharing--it's about setting a higher standard on the forum so everyone grows as a writer.
In fairness, I think the posts that most bother me aren't the heart-felt ones that are real attempts, but that I suspect there are a fair number of people who have caught on that writing cheesy poetry on here makes them easy money. Where that's the case.. it has to stop! But for all the others.. I have no desire to discourage. I just want to see us support the best work and attract the most talented people, and encourage all writers to really grow.
Thanks for your comment.. despite what people might think, I don't actually enjoy the controversy. I just REALLY care about culture and art! Xx, Kay
I agree wholeheartedly - and as a singer/songwriters too, not as a poet, as I have no skill with that form. I'm decent at melding words, melody and rhythm though. Doesn't make me a poet, so I won't post my lyrics as poetry.
I've had similar arguments on many occasions with friends, and even, once or twice, with my daughter. I object, powerfully, to the kind of cultural relativism that says it's OK to write rubbish, 'cos it's your rubbish and it's just as valuable as any other writings. It's not, unless it's good. And yes, there is a degree of subjectivity to whether something is good or not. But quality is judged collectively, and while one person hating your work is their problem, not yours, everyone hating it suggests that maybe you should do something else with your free time. Yes, anyone has the write to publish. But if it's bad, expect people to say so. I posted a recording of me singing recently, having not done so for a long time, and appreciated the lack of barbed comments. But I've been doing music for long enough, and had enough constructive criticism to know that what I posting was decent, though not the best I'm capable of producing. We seem to have reached a point where it's unacceptable to criticise in any meaningful way, which worries me greatly. In fact, it's the start of mass censorship. If I cannot criticise your ideas, or your art, then how can I adequately express my own ideas or art..?
So thanks for posting, I agree and will be resteeming immediately!
Such a great comment, and it's so encouraging to see that there are many who understand and share my plight! As I've said a few times, it's not even about trying to find the absolute gold, but just trying to flickers of authentic art and real artistic potential. There is a degree of subjectivity, but we really are losing our ability and opportunity to speak to what is bad. And, as I've also said, it is a disservice to artists to not give them a standard to strive for; we deprive people of the chance to become good.
I loved loved loved this comment. Thank you for expressing some things I had missed out on!
Would have been even better if I'd spotted the typos... oops ;)
In fact, it goes right to the heart of teaching in any form. If you cannot tell a child that they're wrong, how will they ever learn to be right..?
Yes. Yes. Yes. I think what we miss is that it is actually an injustice to even the person creating poor quality to not give them the opportunity to become better and to create meaningful work.
I hear you. And I agree to some extent. - Sure, I'm not native in English so I might just miss some of the "good parts" in poems I've read so far.. But to be, many of them seems pretty bad actually.
I mean, I don't want to take anything away from people who's working hard and trying new things and stuff like that.
I totally understand that some people will be pretty "bad" at writing poems and I fully understand that some will be worse than others.. - But I'm glad they all work hard and try. - That's the only way they'll get better at it.
That being said, what I don't really like about it... Is that many of them are reaping high rewards. But that's a different story, because that's just how Steemit is in general. Some people will reward things you personally believe is horrible, and others won't upvote or reward what you believe is "one of the best things you've ever seen". - That's Steemit in a nutshell.
Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. - And even though I don't like it too much actually, I've learned to deal with it, as I won't be able to change it on my own. No matter how much I try.
However, if I publish something like this:
I wouldn't expect any rewards, but the fact is, I'd probably get a few bucks for it. Perhaps out of pity or because some people actually liked it and thought it was great... - Steemit is still very young, odd and amazing at the same time.. So things will change with time.
And btw. I don't dislike you or unfollow you due to your opinions. In fact, I like you even more when you share personal opinions. - Good or bad. Agree or disagree doesn't matter. What matters is that we are a community with tons of people. All of us are unique and we can't agree on everything. However, we can communicate, debate and ventilate our opinions, suggestions and ideas. - That's how we will grow together.
Well done!
It is certainly not my aim to deter tries and discourage writers, although I know that that may be an unfortunate side consequence of what I see as a necessary conversation. My greatest goal would actually be to see everyone who is posting get better. I'm a bit of a dreamer, but I do think that's possible!
Quality to some extent is in the eye of the beholder, of course. Taste is a mysterious thing. But there are objective standards as well, and I think we are afraid to say that anymore, which spells our doom lol.
You're hitting the nail on the head that the sharing of the lesser-quality stuff isn't such a big deal, but the major-reward-reaping is. It deters the best writers when this becomes the norm! One excellent writer on here recently lost interest in Steem because their (excellent) work was receiving so little attention. I think that's a problem we should at least attempt to address.
Thanks so much for your comment, and for appreciating me speaking honestly. That is seriously one of the most refreshing things about Steemit. We can disagree here and argue and both come out better people--on repeat! I've never had a conversation just go totally sour even if at first it seems it might go that way--people here are perceptive and intelligent enough to really engage in a respectful and meaningful way, even if they really disagree. It is awesome, and I love it.
I don't read a lot of poetry on Steemit - unless it's from someone I'm familiar with or is part of one of the poetry "slams" or contests. A lot of those are VERY good. And I have written some myself - but - with a purpose and with intention - and it's not just for upvotes. :) You nailed it here. It's definitely important to be choosy about what poetry you read on here! (and all posts for that matter!) Thankfully you often CAN tell/judge by the cover (title of posts) on Steemit - before you click on it!
I'm glad you enjoy elaborate art from very talented people. However, I don't think your expectations of great quality becoming popular on steemit can be fulfilled. But seeking for solutions, I think you could write about what poems you like or what you think makes a great poem. Perhaps you could also make some poetry contests and compensate (even with just a few bucks) what you think is really good. Perhaps you can make a post a week about the best poems you've found in steemit. Or when you are a whale, you'll be able to vote what you like. Others will upvote what they like, even if its cheesy, unfortounately and your best chance is either try to educate those people or compensate talent under your terms.
All helpful suggestions! Thanks for taking time to comment. I have most of that in mind.. and am also admittedly muddling my way through this. Sometimes, we just have to start somewhere.
Frankly, of course I know that there will always be bad posts and a bunch of people who will upvote them. That likely won't fundamentally change, although we can hope. But I think there will be MORE of them if we don't talk about it, and more really good writers and artists who will be discouraged if at least some of us don't become intentional about supporting them. Conversations help start those kinds of organic movements.
But writing about this is just one tiny piece of the puzzle, for sure. But it is a piece of the puzzle! :)
Xx, Kay
I'm not much into poetry, but I'll take your word for it.
haha thanks! You should read some some time.. some of the good stuff!
I am flattered, thank you friend☺️ Yes there is truly a difference between just putting words together and creating poetry. Poetry requires effort and creativity- poetry is art⭐️
You bet! That's one of the things we have to do here: give a stage to those who deserve it when they do good work! xx
Like I said, I'm super flattered. Thank you pretty friend!🎀
I've noticed that this trend isn't just on steem - it's also on instagram and tumblr. Many of the poets that do well write poetry that is sort of like feel-in-the-blanks, an emotion or scene that can be easily reblogged because its applicable to anyone's state of mind. But that quality also makes the writing shallow, and bland. Just that combined with 90% of people who post their writing online are going to be bad. It's probably how popular this bad poetry gets that's the most annoying issue, though.
But people aren't necessarily looking for "quality" or learned in the art of poetry.
You have explained things SO well. I really appreciate your comment.
Instagram is the worst. It's why I was so excited about Steemit. And honestly, the reason I want to talk about it here is because due to the intelligence and excellence of a lot of people on here, and the relative "youth" of the platform (still very new and growing) we could actually shift the culture on here a bit--at least so there is a large sector where people intentionally support good art and ignore the bad stuff.
But I know I'm a dreamer. I think it's worth talking about, but it's true that if people don't want to learn and grow and fight for the really good stuff, there isn't much that can be said.
..but I hope we can have a little corner on here of freedom and creative honesty. Gonna follow you because I want to stay in touch about this stuff! xx, Kay
I actually get what you are saying, and i partially agree with you. But here are some more thoughts on the matter. Steemit may be a way for some out there to share what they do. (for better or for worse) maybe they are just starting, maybe they need more practice, of maybe for them what they do IS poetry - Poetry doesn't always have to rime for example.
With this I'm not saying that you got it all wrong, I'm new here and I haven't found out yet much poetry that I liked. (not sure this last sentence was well written) And I do think, constructive and polite opinions can help us or me for that matter get better.
There is much to talk about this matter but i think this could be some good points to establish for starters.
I'm sorry if I wrote something wrong, my first language is Spanish. Feel free to correct me or disagree with me.
Your English is fine! Don't be self-conscious--some of my very dearest friends have imperfect English, and I think they are smart and wonderful and funny and just the best, so don't even think of it!
I'm not someone who is hyper-critical about everything---just general trends that I think are problematic!
I definitely don't mean to be cruel to those sharing their hearts--but I think we do well to encourage people to grow as writers, not just spew the words they feel. Poetry is a craft, where every word is selected intentionally.
As I've been thinking about it more, I also think there must be a fair amount of people who aren't necessarily sharing their hearts, but have just quickly learned that if they write cheesy poetry on here, they will make quick money. That's a problem.. but if we don't support the bad stuff, the sincere poets and artists will GROW and the insincere ones will stop. That's my thinking, anyway? Could be wrong.. but just glad to be able to discuss it.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment, and you are certainly welcome here! Xx!
The discussion is open because you are putting it respectfully and that's the way to go if you want to put it out there to encourage people to be true in their up-votes and support the poetry or work they believe in.
But yeah, it's not easy to draw the line, some people do their best and try to make money in the process, other will post whatever just to make money.
Poetry is a craft, where every word is selected intentionally. So true.
Thanks for your firs word in your reply! 😊 😊
I hope you didn't read german poetry. I don't know which one you have read, but some of my german steemit friends are really talented and they definitely post good stuff. Therefore, I have to disagree with you. Maybe you should look for other poets and promote them and just ignore the others?
Greetings from Germany!
Most of the ones I was reading were the trending ones--not sure if they were German or not? I'm sure the Germans are wonderful :).
Good suggestion. That's a piece of the puzzle, for sure. But I think we need to call things what they are a little as well, even if it's a (really) hard conversation to have. I hope to start posting writing tips, and am thinking of ways to promote the best writers on here.
Have to correct something. Don't ignore them, haha. Constructive criticism is something i really miss on steemit. People say it's good or people say nothing. Most of them. People who have the courage to say this and that could be better are a rarity, sadly.. writing tips? Great idea!
Why not offer something helpful to the community such as ways they can improve their poetry. Not everyone has an education in these types of things, not everyone went on study an arts degree and know what makes good poetry. Most of these people are out giving it a go, writing from the heart and putting it out there. They are encouraged with upvotes which inspires them to learn more, do more. By just saying that their poetry is bad and people are upvoting it because they don't know good poetry isn't exactly helpful. Tell us what is good poetry, help these people learn how to make their poetry more appealing.
I actually have written a little more earlier, and plan to! That's a helpful contribution, so thanks. I honestly just want to get people discussing this. I admitted in the article itself I don't really know how to go about it: I just know it's something that needs to be discussed if we want to hope for any kind of quality in the long run.
And it's helpful to have the reminder that not everyone has that education. Honestly, that's part of what I'm trying to open up: a conversation among artists and writers that might help us offer an education to the Steem members who are writers and readers. As hard as it is, however, a significant part of this is being able to say when things aren't that good--as I've mentioned in almost every article I've written about this, the critics in my life have done me a lot of good, and I'm grateful. Of course I do sound a bit exasperated in this post.. but I'm just doing my best to open this up.
I'm also just sad that some really good writers here are getting no attention, while some really low quality stuff is exploding. It's hard to know what to do with that.
I'm willing to grow and do it differently, so am grateful for your suggestions!
I understand your concerns. I've had a few of them myself, but I think we have to set some standards for critiques. We have no idea (well maybe a little) who is on the other end of that piece. It could be someone just starting out with poetry and having a limited understanding. Such unrestrained critiques could limit their development as writers.
I'm new here, so I don't know how we would go about communicating this standard, but it would be nice to have an indication from the author about how open the were to criticism. Something like. #onlypositive #suggestionswelcome or #critiqueswelcome would be great. If anybody wants to critique any of mine, have at it (nobody else read really read them anyways).
I like your idea about critiques, and appreciate wholeheartedly your hesitation about how "unrestrained critiques" could discourage people in unwanted ways. I don't want to create a cynical culture where we are just mean. That's not my goal at all. I honestly just don't know how to go about this, but do want to start a conversation to get people thinking more critically about the art they support on here so they do it more thoughtfully. I want to see the best work supported--and as people grow as writers/artists (especially if they feel the need to through the culture here), they will do better! I do think we need to have a lively conversation about what makes good poetry, etc., if we want to see quality emerge.
Taking a look now! And you're new here.. welcome. Hopefully we haven't scared you off already? Like I said, my goal isn't to discourage new writers.. but I do want to see the community develop a bit of quality control so we attract the best people and see really talented people do well!
Thanks for your comment!
Okay I wrote my first poetry post thanks to you! Check it out, and let me know if you think it fits in the direction we should be going as a poetic community!
All the best,
-kfx
Better than the stuff that inspired this post.
lololol
roses are red...violets are blue?
Being a wordsmith seems to be a lost art. There was a time when as you read, you would be inspired and or moved by an author who was able to enter your mind with the ease of smoke. As you formed the pictures and your imagination gave life to what was being described, there was a connection. Unfortunately, society is more concerned with Keeping up the Kardashians than they are with Whitman or Thoreau. I believe that if we continue to contribute quality product and support those who are able to touch our hearts and souls, then the impostors will fade away.
Wonderful comment-- "with the ease of smoke." So many head nods as I read.
I think you're partially right and producing good content is certainly part of that.. but we also need to have a conversation going about it in order to help shift things on here. It's a relatively small platform and still could see a big shift with enough people weighing in regularly enough!
Conversations are a lost art as well. Instead of interacting, look around a coffee shop, look how many people are staring into their palms for salvation, and this in a place that was once considered one of the bastions of intellectual arenas. When hypersensitivity is the norm and everyone gets an award for participating, people do not know how to react to a bloody nose and that is unfortunate.
So glad we are connected on here. Honestly, just having other people who get it is helpful.
Yes! The coffee shops in Vienna were places of inspiration and genius. My, how much we have lost. Am I fool for trying to rebuild? I think it's worth giving my life to in whatever I can..
I believe that we can be critics and not just cynics. As long as we help promote and foster a group of individuals to find their voices. It takes practice and patience to create something worth while. Creative criticism not just constructive criticism, is what I believe is our best opportunity for growth and encouraging the budding minds of the future. The honor is mine, I've loved some of your work...I just wish I could contribute more than just my 2 cents.
I really appreciate that distinction. Are you going to write on it, or can I? I will mention you! Creative criticism rather than cynicism. Perfect.
I certainly don't want to facilitate ugly criticism and negative remarks on the artists just stepping out. Again, that is NOT my goal. At all. And I think you're right that the focus likely needs to be on supporting the best in a proactive way. It's hard to do it on your own though: we need to find a way to band together to actually get the best people seen.
I value your 2 cents! :)
You have a much better voice than I. I don't believe that anyone who took the time to actually read your post would take it as being mean spirited. Along that same vein, I don't believe that this platform is a utopia, yet. However, with individuals and pioneers such as yourself, uniting others, I am enthusiastically optimistic about the future.
I made a feeble attempt to entire one of the chat rooms and that just wasn't the right environment for me to be expressive. I am not sure where we can create a coven, but you let me know and I will show up with bells on.
It's potentially worse than that! The shadow of Steemit appears to me to be modeled on the transference of a skewed understanding of Darwinism into and onto the field of economics! A terrible tragedy for humanity and the planet! Look, whales, in their natural habitat, don't conspire to exploit and coerce every other creature in the sea to their benefit and personal gratification!* Whales live in harmony via instinct through the processes of natural law; they will strive for equilibrium within ecosystems or suffer the consequences of distortion and imbalance.
The fact of the matter is that a person could have most all the solutions to the myriad problems of the human condition and the model of this site would bury that profundity within the inanity of 'popularism'.....
Okay, no poetry here....
Re-read. yes. I understand. When I first joined I loved the idea of being free to share, but it's true that populism takes over.. which is always lowest common denominator.
Turns out quality control isn't always such a bad thing.
Sigh sigh sigh.
(But I still love it here)
It's a decent enough platform on one level. Interestingly enough, steam ( the engine) ushered in a paradigm shift a few hundred years ago; Steem, could possibly, do the same thing via the blockchain.....But it's not without its Shadow as my post above pointed out....It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Also.. you are "andrewmarkmusic" but I don't see any music on your channel??
I've just finished, 4-songs about God in E-flat minor...Old school, one needs a 15-minute attention span:) Goes well with weed, too, if one is inclined to that sort of thing.... I have it on good authority that the robots in 20 years will make it infamous among the A.I. crowd...
https://steemit.com/introduction/@andrewmarkmusic/hi-steemit
I hid it in my introduction page...
Philosophy has become more important to me as I've aged....
You're right. In the end, someone is always in charge, whether officially or not. The idea that were won't be some kind of hierarchy on here is ludicrous.. of course there is/will be. It will be interesting to see how that plays out for sure.. in the meantime.. just building my little world on here!
One can have a pathological hierarchy or benevolent hierarchy...A benevolent hierarchy would hopefully strive for balance and equilibrium; the pathological one not so much....Check out ideas on Holarchy if you haven't come across it..
I don't know enough about that yet to comment.. where could I check more out on that?
Personally I have zero interest in poetry, seriously none. However, I fully support people putting their work out there. It may suck, or not be material a publisher would ever touch, but it is someone's attempt, someone's emotional output. If it sucks and you find it unbearable then got that mute button.
If a poet wants to get better they should be open to hearing criticism - I wish there was more honest open criticism in the writing circles I run in, but people either tend to stay quiet or heap praise.
I wonder if the reason you have zero interest in it is because it's sooooo bad. Really good poetry is a wonderful thing.
The thing is, we conflate "emotional output" with art. They aren't the same thing.
The reason I want to talk about it is that I think we can change things potentially. A lot of the bad poets could get better if they knew they needed to. And a lot of great poets getting very little attention might see things change. I think that's worth the discussion--if it were just about my personal preferences, of course I could just mute it. But it's not just about that.
Anyway, I appreciate your comment nonetheless. Xx, Kay
It may very well be that I have never read good poetry. I was exposed to it in a couple college classes but it never grabbed my attention. I am open to changing my perspective and would appreciate you pointing me to a poem or two that could potentially change my mind.
I also upvoted because that's a humble and thoughtful comment to shoot back. xx
I have strong opinions but I'm also always open to a challenge to those opinions. Thank you for the recommendation and when I get some time free from roudy kids I will check them out.
Ahhhhh.. this is what I love about Steemit. The people here are on the whole much more able to authentically engage--which means disagreeing, but also bending here and there. It's interesting to me how a lot of people with strongly articulated opinions are often sometimes the most willing to actually listen to the opinions of others. Conversation is meant to be this way--that we influence each other to have fuller understanding. Hope you like the poems, but it's also okay if it's not your thing. There are seasons for these things--but I do hope you enjoy them simply because I just find beautiful use of language has added so much richness to my own life.
All the best!
I totally agree with you! If you aren't open then you aren't learning and that is just foolish. Either you change your mind or just reinforce where you already stood.
Hmm. That is quite the challenge. I Have Been One Acquainted With the Night by Robert Frost? God's Grandeur by Hopkins? i carry your heart by ee cummings? Of course there is the question of varying tastes, but these are all excellent because they touch something through poetic use of language that regular prose just can't. But make sure you spend some time with them.. a couple of slow reads of each one, and listening to the effect it is having on you as you read. It's like learning a new language at first.
Maybe you would read some of mine? This one is the best I have posted, but am refraining from posting more until I have them copyrighted somewhere: https://steemit.com/poetry/@kayclarity/storm-battered-similar-sands-an-original-poem
And maybe you'd enjoy some of my songs? www.kayclarity.com (free downloads there, too)
Let me know how your poetry journey is going! I mean that! I'll be curious :)
Excellent I really appreciated you
:)
@kayclarity cute expression!!
100% authentic. I am trying to control my facial expressions a little because they can get somewhat out of control haha
Hahaaa but keep posting like that😉
haha thanks.
bad , bad poetry ....
Sigh. Honestly, when people think that poetry is just sentimental spewing.. of course people don't think it's a worthwhile pursuit! It makes me sad that people see that and dismiss all poetry because all they ever see is poor versions of it.. ugh.
This was a really interesting posts; I write poetry a lot, as it's a way to express myself and get my thoughts down, and I'm not very good at this point, but I'm trying to write every day and improve myself. Do you mind checking out my post and telling me what you think? Thanks! Upvoted and followed! https://steemit.com/poetry/@mmcint/t-h-e-f-i-g-h-t-poetry