d3d1191892ffc7859439401c6bb86a36dd71db90
Goals Of This Proposal:
To give the Splinterlands team permission to use Ghost Cards for Liquidity Bots since right now
they use owned cards to create Liquidity Bot accounts for ranked play.
We don't have enough players in the Modern Format, so Liquidity Bots are needed. Allowing Ghost Cards instead of real cards will give the team the flexibility to get them up and running in a much more timely and scalable manner.
Liquidity Bots are needed in the Wild Format to prevent low-level accounts from reaching higher leagues with little to no investment. Ghost Cards will give the team the flexibility to add as many Liquidity Bots as needed to stabilize Wild. Wild will need more Liquidity Bots than Modern so Ghost Cards are vital to accomplish that goal.
This Proposal Will Give The Team The Flexibility To Use Ghost Cards To:
- Provide as many Liquidity Bots as deemed necessary
- Provide whatever level cards are needed
- Provide the ability to keep accounts at whatever rating is needed
- Be used in the Modern and Wild formats
- Not have to worry about purchasing cards for current and future sets.
Keep in mind the team is not obligated to use the Liquidity Bots in either League if they can find better ways to solve the problem, but if the proposal passes, the option is there.
Please Note: The Splinterlands team will NOT earn any rewards from these Team Liquidity Bot
accounts. Ghost Cards will not earn any rewards even if the account has a Spellbook on it.
I'd like to thank the following people for their help in funding this proposal:
@michealb
@meredorn
@davemccoy
@mondroid
@clove71
@bjangles
@fatjimmy
Do you want to add bots now after banning bots from players? of the license, they are managing to put an end to the game.
stop inventing fashion, and improve the base of the game that new players come, the game doesn't present new things in good times, always more of the same, and more and more interventions in the game environment.
Stop this bizarreness now.
Do you want to add bots now after banning bots from players? of the license, they are managing to put an end to the game.
stop inventing fashion, and improve the base of the game that new players come, the game doesn't present new things in good times, always more of the same, and more and more interventions in the game environment.
Stop this bizarreness now.
You appear to be confusing cheat bots with liquidity bots....
These would be SPL bots to help with Liquidity since that's a major problem with Modern right now. These SPL Liquidity bots would not earn any rewards.
Holy crap...
We ban bots from modern and now there aren't enough players? Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles and Andrea Bocelli saw this coming.
I can't help from seeing the names in the funding this proposal who was absolutely on the ban the bots train.
Big fat no from me.
In any case let's be honest bots are and can be a massive issue for ANY game. So they simply should not be allowed it's why they are banned from every other game. They destroy a game for real players and suck the life out of it in terms of resources. That's a simple fact.
I will try to get an exemption for you to run your bot in Modern if you are willing to vary your team performance to provide different levels of game play and of course not accept earnings too. Somehow I don't think you would like that given your "big fat no" here, but if so then hit me up on discord.
But its ok, you can vote how you like, that's the purpose of proposals and of owning SPS. Its what gives value to SPS!
You are asking for free labor here. I made a comment on a better solution that can integrate bots to the game in a healthier way. We need more matches and bots need to earn. We should be able to come to a more decentralized solution.
https://peakd.com/undefined/@vimukthi/re-warrentrx-2024520t14444136z
No I'm not asking for free labor at all. Please don't twist my words,
I read your comment and it misses the mark. The problem with player owned bots is their goal is to maximize earnings by trying to win (which they should), and this creates a situation where automation is better than humans. Thus the player bots will outperform the humans and 1) take a disproportionate share of the earnings and 2) more importantly, destroy the fun of the game when humans can't win against comparable bots.
We've already tried this and it doesn't work.
You are missing the purpose of the team liquidity bots. They are not there to do their best to win, they are there to help create the conditions for humans to enjoy the game by providing matches and appropriate level of competition. Just like a PVE mode in many games.
I understand your view, and but I 100% disagree with it. There is nothing wrong with PVE in the gaming world, and there is nothing wrong with the team setting the right conditions to make their game fun. This has nothing to do with decentralization, that's absurd. These bots take no prizes or earning. This is no different than the team creating a new card to counter an older OP card. That isn't centralization, that is called "balancing", and adding team liquidity bots serves the same purpose.
This is exactly why I proposed a penalty on earnings.
Since bots must be registered as per my alternative suggestion for community bots, a set of terms and conditions can be given to community bot operators to adheres to. These conditions could include things that will limit the win rate. Bot operators are to be treated as service providers.
Yes, but I would like to see it be a separate game mode. Ranked should remain exclusive to those who have assets. I'm okay with company operated bots as long as those accounts hold assets. If Steem Monsters Inc wants to have Ghost Cards, they should be a separate set of PvE Cards.
We could even have some lore about these PvE encounters in the arena. It can lead to a fun gameplay experience. PvE part will be explicit rather than a seeing a centralized party play against me without owning any assets in the game mode where everyone else is expected to own assets.
We have more agreements than you think. In a reply to a different user, you said:
You and I are both open to these. You expect the operators to earn nothing while they have to purchase/rent assets and operate bots. I think they should earn 50% - 90% less than manual players like me.
PS: I have never used bots or battle helpers.
I agree with this.
I don't mind registering bots either, I'd for for this part on its own. Your ideas can solve the problems if all of them were implemented together, but I think realistically that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
For instance, you said we could limit the botted player accounts "win rate". I don't even know how you would do this, but I would be willing to listen to your ideas. However, I do know that many bot owners would not want their win-rates nerfed, they would scream loudly that they own assets and they bought them to win.
So in order to put together your much more complicated solution, then the process would need to bring in many of the stakeholders and get them to agree to your vision. I personally would be one that would be happy to explore these things, even though I'm doubtful it would lead to an acceptable solution. I do like to learn and explore new things, so feel free to message me on Discord if you like and I will participate if asked!
That is how I formulated them.
Unfortunately, I think you are right.
Since the bots a registered under a set of terms and conditions, they can be banned for violations. Requiring a deposit (DEC, SPS, VOUCHER) that will be burned in the case of a ban could be added if a simple ban is not enough to keep bots complaint.
Then that is their problem. My aim is to find decentralized solutions that can bring SPS DAO closer to HIVE or BTC. As a bonus we will be more SEC proof.
For the time being I'm fine with @splinterlands controlled bots that do not earn rewards as long as they use real NFTs.
Thank you very much. I rarely use Discord. But I will keep you in mind.
The current exploit of maxing just one or two splinters with the lowest cost cards to get easy wins over evenly assembled lower level decks takes much of the fun out of the game. No one enjoys getting thumped indiscriminately by higher level cards.
How about you petition the SPL team to only allow bronze level cards to be played while in bronze and allow players to stay at the level their cards are suited and progress to the next level when they are ready and at their own pace. Then a whole bunch of players will go back to modern and the game would be so much more enjoyable to play.
I don't think this is an exploit. The reason why you are playing against teams with max level cards is simply you don't have enough teams in Modern and that is keeping everyone down. With more teams those accounts will be much higher and then you won't face them.
I play Wild myself and play many matches against teams equal to me. My win rate is very close to 50% and my account plays at Diamond. So the problem isn't the summoner issue, the problem is there's not enough matches creating the ratings inflation that is needed to offset the season reset.
And this proposal will actually end up speeding up the solution that the team has chosen to solve the problem you stated. If it passes, then they will be able to many more liquidity bots that will help at all levels to get teams to where they are expecting to be.
The longer there is a denial of all of the problems that the current system creates the worse it will get. How many weeks has it been that it is not a problem and it will sort itself out? A big high to all those who spent thousands and have nothing to complain about. It wouldn't be a proper rebellion set if there wasn't a revolt. All those balls deep in quicksand there is no need to panic unless the next mini set is named rug pull.
ok I guess you have an agenda, so I apologize for trying to reply to you respectfully. I won't try to argue with someone that knows we are all doomed unless we do it his way. That's a waste of time for me.
So have a nice day and I wish you well in the world that caters to everything you want.
Oh no I am just an observer of what everyone can see.
So magnanimous of you to offer that to me. You seem like you run Splinterlands and I'm truly touched your spent the time to interact with me.
No I don't work for Splinterlands at all, but I do care about helping those that care about the game. I assumed you had the best interests of the community in mind, so that's why I offered to try to help you!
Yes - i'm far too stupid to know what is the best for the community.
are you? I really didn't know you at all.
I'm sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of yourself though. No one should go through life feeling they are stupid, so I'm sure you have a gift, now you just have to find it! Best wishes!
To clarify your remarks, we banned cheats from using bots in Modern, and desperately need to do the same thing for the whole game.
There is literally nothing in common between two very different things...
My comments don't need clarification. They are your statements.
I can equally say people who have huge collections are cheating as well. They have a distinct advantage over people who do not.
In terms of leagues based on "skill" the only way your going to accomplish this is that you have a battle pass league.
What If We Allow Bots With a Penalty on Rewards?
I want to see better match liquidity. I also want to see bigger separation with Steem Monsters Inc, both for the sake of decentralization and to avoid potential SEC threats. Giving special privileges to a centralized party is a Web 2 solution to a Web 3 problem.
The problem is that bots are extracting more value with less effort demotivating those who earn by playing the game manually. There have been many cases of MMOs suffering due to banning bots. We would not be talking about Ghost Card bots to provide match liquidity if the community bots were around.
I don't like seeing Ghost Cards above Level 1. I don't want representation without assets. Since the community is ready to accept the principle that bots are a solution; the implementation must come in a decentralized manner.
Without a reward for the community bots, we will be asking for charity or communism. With regular rewards we will be discouraging manual gameplay. The community will have to decide on an appropriate middle ground. My suggestion is a penalty of 50% - 90%.
Read the last line of the proposal:
The Splinterlands team will NOT earn any rewards from these Team Liquidity Bot
accounts. Ghost Cards will not earn any rewards even if the account has a Spellbook on it.
These bots are purely for liquidity.
I read the part and that is not what I have a problem with. There are bots that use real assets run by @splinterlands that don't earn rewards. My issue is a centralized party having special abilities in gameplay. Ghost Cards is my problem. Players who own assets will have to face bots that don't own any assets. This is sneaking PvE into ranked while making it look exactly like PvP.
perfect I agree 100%
I should have elaborated more that registered bots should comply with terms and conditions intended to optimize the gameplay experience of manual players.
I mentioned registering bots to a friend of mine not too long ago as a potential idea. I think this would be an amazing solution. Registered bots would allow the liquidity needed while their owners could still make some sort of return on their investment.
What if human players were still able to win something upon facing the registered bot? When the bot wins they take 50%, the losing human player gets 25% and 25% is burned?
I came to SPL roughly 2 years ago, diving in head first because of the ability to passively earn. I would love to see that ability return to modern play even at reduced earnings and under the SPL terms and conditions.
I like the idea and wish more stakeholders would adopt such a solution. We should use the the free markets to our advantage and think of bots as a tool rather than an enemy.
!PIZZA
!LUV
!CTP
One more thing. What if the rewards were split to be 25% to the bot winner, 25% to the human loser, 25% burned and 25% back to the SPL Team? Other then pack sales and promos this would give them another way to bring in money to fund things the community needs. Hopefully allowing the game to thrive and the price of our tokens to increase.
So dao going to need to pay to have the bots run
No, this allows the SPL team to use Ghost Cards. There is no cost to the DAO.
Cost of running a server of bots?
Before this proposal, they used their own cards which will run out eventually. This takes care of that problem. This would make the only cost the setup and maintenance time.
Then Splinterlands team shouldn't remove the CP requirement of the league. I think the team didn't consider this issue when they removed the CP requirement and created this problem. And now we have another proposal just to solve 1 more short-term issue.
Is there anyone considering the problems/consequences if this proposal is passed?
Lmao “bot this, bot that” going around in circles putting little bandaids on a cancerous tumor that is the game just sucks. Players are leaving and none are joining. The final attractive piece of this game, the economics, is gone. There is no incentive to join or keep playing. Yet people waste there time and money on these silly proposals.
Wake me up when there is an actual proposal to add more players.
It's a NO for me. Banned bot then not enough players and need a liquidity bot to solve the problem. It makes no sense at all. If this proposal is approved, the game is making a circle.
If we need a liquidity bot, i prefer they use the real card, at least it helps the rental market instead of ghost cards.
You're misunderstanding the point of the proposal. These bots WON'T earn rewards, and are purely for matchmaking and liquidity.
Bad bots earn rewards. Good bots play for free when there aren't humans to play, and don't earn even if they win. This proposal introduces the latter.
"The bots won't earn the reward" is not an important point in my opinion. With the ghost cards, Splinterlands is not the NFT game anymore and this is the bigger problem that you should consider before implementing this proposal.
Lmfao, this is just getting ridiculous. We already have non-reward earning bots, they are called 'smaller players'.
Lets review how we got these:
This is how it looks with all these changes:
We propose to revert 'change 1' and add a CP requirement again, but only for rewards, keep 'change 3' which forces you into a league you now won't have the CP for, which diminishes your rewards even more as you dont have the sps or CP needed for it, effectively making smaller non-bot accounts 'bots' that play and earn nothing, which is exactly what this proposal wants to create.
I like this summary. The biggest rewards in the game is strongly biased toward the top end players playing modern. These players are crying crocodile tears that there is not enough liquidity. There is not enough middle and low end players wanting to get drawn up and smashed by those maxed out decks waiting for them. The cost of putting in enough high end fake bots to satisfy the demand for easier wins must be prohibitive for the SPL team. This proposal is an attempt to get around this farcical situation brought about by an anti-bot extremist movement that has somehow gained enough influence to bring about reckless changes with little or no regard for the economic ramifications.
LOL, we need bots in a card game, otherwise we are not enough players? Really! Yes, that was the concern and consider of the !!! Allow-Bot-Community !!!
A mistake can happen, but the problem is, still saying it wasn't one. Allow bots again and reduce the earnings of them. Maybe that's a solution.
If I'm right Splinterlands hired the guy from XBot? So new players are going against him (BattleHelper) + huge amount of cards from now on? Please, don't do this. You're killing the game.
Hard no from me. Instead of allowing ghost cards, the bot account should rent the cards. Card rental prices have been in the gutter for a while now, so renting cards would be cheap for the bots. Maybe the DAO could subsidize it. Making the bot account rent cards would help card prices. This game needs to reward card ownership more.
I'd agree with this, the rental market is dead, but where do funds to pay for rentals come from?
One other thing I didn't understand from what I read until now... Who pays the liquidity bot providers? They are not free. Infrastructure costs. Wouldn't it be great if we had more... playing accounts?
I wonder how they would make the liquidity bots play in a fair manner, or will these just use battle helpers for the most OP teams ?
It actually much tougher to create a "fair" bot than one that is optimized to win. With the number of different battle modifications, size of hand, splinters its pretty diverse and there won't be statistically significant line up that you could put together to make it even.
As an observation, when calculating odds of winning a lot of the simulators will calculate results of 0 percent or 100 percent. You will rarely get a 50% result which is fair.
Also "fair" matchup requires knowledge of the opponent. You can do this based their % win rate for the last 50 battles which in my opinion is not statistically significant or their actual team submitted which has different problems.
They would put x amount of Ghost Cards on an account and then let the different services run the accounts. They can add more or remove cards as needed so they will stay in the desired rating range.
I hope not. They have the ability to make any kind of teams they want, so you would think their goal would be to make the players happy by providing not only different strength teams, but also much varied play styles to add interesting combinations.
There are not enough players cause game is not worth being played anymore, it's a waste of time, chests are no more and actual glint system just took eos fun away, SPS rewards for battles are ridiculous, that proposal is just pointless, game is dying, SPS sinking and that doesn't help... Just go back to one game mode with all cards allowed and ban all bots
This right here is the real solution. Running around worry about all this bot stuff isn't the issue. More players are needed yet people keep wasting their time on these type of silly bandaid proposals that, at best, stave off the dead of this game for a couple more months as more people leave and less join.
Going back to one game mode is not likely to occur. The SPL developers need to sell packs to pay the expenses and the dual game mode is designed to ensure demand for packs. The game needs developers and they won't do it for free.
Unlimited bots that can be configured to do anything by a centralized company is not what I want to see 😱 I'd rather have decentralized bots with real NFTs. Add a CP requirement to be safe.
Decentralized > Centralized
Owning NFT > ghost cards
This make the game significantly more decentralized which is not our goal.
If a botting service is allowed it should be owned and run from the DAO using real DAO cards as assets.
I'm totally cool with DAO owned bots. That decentralized. We own DAO as SPS stakers!
Whilst it is true that de>ce and that owning nfts>ghost cards, in this specific use case, what we need is match liquidity and there doesn't appear to be another solution...
wtf are "ghost cards" anyway?
This allows the team to put a Ghost Card version of a card instead of a normal NFT version of a card on the account to play. It gives them more flexibility to be able to control how good these accounts are. These Ghost Cards would not earn any rewards.
Big NO!
My vote is to simply not have two battle systems and go back to one.
Am I missing something here? Can't the team just make liquidity bots that don't earn without a DAO proposal?
I'm not going to complain about you all burning 100k DEC though 🙂
Quote from Matt on Discord - "If you guys pass a proposal allowing that it’s fine with me. I just didn’t want to go ahead and do that and then have people yelling that we’re “printing more cards” or anything like that"
This game is not what it was before, the truth is that I have less and less desire to play, before at least you won something, but now with so many bots in the game, both in the exchange and in the rental, it makes it more and more be worse. I would do a reset and put it as it was at the beginning, now I think that only the creators of the game and their whale friends make money
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @warrentrx!
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Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2024-05-26 05:11 UTC
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STOPGame's dead
$PIZZA slices delivered:
@vimukthi(1/5) tipped @mosdirty
I can’t believe I need to explain this but apparently I do since this proposal seems like it might pass.
This is a horrible and DANGEROUS precedent to provide SPL management. You’re essentially giving them the 100% freedom to have every possible card in the game with no cost. Think about what this means. They essentially have the keys to win every game and the ability to dictate who wins. They want to “push” you into buying more packs. They build bot decks that will win out every time when you don’t have the right cards to counter. They have higher levels they have all the abilities. This means you’re going to lose and the company is going to profit off your ignorance of thinking “if I buy more packs I can turn a profit” but there is no profit. The economics of this game is horrible. Then you’re going to lose more often than you win, not because someone is more skilled than you but just because they purchased their win. Or because of “luck”. They don’t make money off the wins. They make money off you losing and making you think you can win by buying more cards. That’s just pure manipulation.
For the love of all that is smart and logical people should be voting against this. The only people voting for it should be the whales.
If that’s the case and this passes. We should all get out and let the whales eat themselves with all the small fish gone.
Speed running capitalism with the ecosystem of this game, eh? The creators must profit, the early investors must profit, line goes up!!!! Just drain new players before they get established, or have a monster capital dump into company-focused expenditures and take over the ecosystem.
It's predictable when the only goal is to make profit. Once that primary motivation is changed, the game will recover and be awesome again. But that's not really something that is expected or even considered by this team.
total no brainer to do this so yes!
Thanks for making this Paul, it will speed up the implementation and gives the team full ability to use this tool to their own discretion!