In a recent post by @kyle, dangerous unresearched accusations were made against @steemgames and sister account @steemsports which turned out to be unfounded. Upon being presented with evidence, @kyle did retract and edit his post although judging by his continued comments, the witch-hunt may not be over and further damage was done to the participants and to the brand.
To clarify the situation, @walden approached @steemsports recently with the Steemy Games idea, to create further community engagement and create some visibility for participants, our team debated as to whether we should post this kind of game, some were hesitant but at the same time we did not want to hamper innovation since we are supposed to be an immutable blockchain community, and thus we were willing to experiment and see where it would lead.
However to be extra prudent, due to the risk of looking sexist with a male only writer, we first ran the idea past the @steempowertwins who were okay with it and happy to co-host along with @walden and we took the games a step further and included male contests as well to be politically correct.
Cassandra obtained consent from @mrs.steemit and one can see below in chat that she was directed by @mrs.steemit herself to pull any photos necessary from @mrs.steemit's instagram blog which was already public anyway. I'm sure it can be agreed that @mrs.steemit looks mature for her age and some of our team thought she was in her twenties, so one can be forgiven for selecting her 16 year old photo in the mix of all the others, the reason she posted a few more updated photos in comment was in good fun to stir up some more support for her campaign to win the votes and not to tell us we included a 16-year-old photo of herself that she wanted taken down.
Please see below for an excerpt image from the chat conversation between Cassandra and Mrs Steemit.
It is also good to note that on the Steem App Center (http://steemtools.com) there is a Steemy or Not app that is not offending anyone, it's the same concept, except for the fact that it is just not recorded on the blockchain.
In honesty the posts didn't fit with our sporting content and we decided to move the experiment to a separate account and still allow our writers to be creative that way, the previous two posts had gained a high number of views and support and even a jovial "cage match" comment from @ned so we decided to continue the experiment although in the new @steemgames account. The idea was to foster Steemian related games such as food contests and others on this account as well, there was no problem until @klye posted an inflammatory article about this and immediately the sentiment changed and the community got fired up with flags left right and center, after the settling of the dust it has been realised that it was a false alarm and accusation.
The Steemy Games post would have been good visibility for the contestants and others, @halo for example has not been visible for a while even though she has been posting often. As @smooth pointed out, his vote would go to her purely because of her dedication to Steem and her continuing to post even in the face of low post rewards, our team also discussed adding bio's to future games to let the community get to know the contestants better. One of our co-founders even contacted @halo in chat thanking her for her participation and dedication to Steem, pledging support for her future works and was leading up to inviting her to write for us to help supplement her rewards and stay around longer. Unfortunately instead of being uplifted, now she is partially in the center of a scandal in a heavily downvoted post because someone "cried wolf" for no reason.
There is a potentially scarey paradigm developing on Steem, where authors potentially run out of things to write and instead of creating unique content, it has become much easier to just create FUD and try take down other authors to redistribute rewards in part back to themselves and earn rewards on a nice click-bait post of their own in the meantime.
It would perhaps be good if the community and projects like the Steemcleaners stopped encouraging the F'U style posts inciting action against other authors, unless such posts are "Decline Payout" posts (such as this one) which signify that the writer is not merely trying to capitalise financially on potential misinformation and rabble instigation against other authors.
If we all as a community refuse to upvote content which promotes disunity, the community would be better for it.
In closing we do apologise if the Steemy Games offended anyone and assure you our intent was pure fun and engagement. We most likely won't risk any more of these games and the sad thing is we may be hesitant to innovate and now have to second-guess everything we try to do.
Sincerely,
@steemsports team
I don't know why people can't just relax and have some fun. I didn't see anything wrong with steemgames I was asked for permission before they did the post and they asked me to email the photos I wanted to use. If you don't like what someone is posting, why do you continue to go to their blog just to make a stink.
The old generation has a word for these types: "party poopers", "killjoy" also works.
But it's not really fair to categorize like that. I'd prefer we call them ninkin' poops, just cuz I think the word sounds really funny :)
Agree, except: I don't think we need F'U style posts at all, nor posts inciting action against other authors. We have a voting system, and if you don't like someone's work you can either vote for different work or downvote it. Attacks, trolling, F'Us, etc. have no positive role to play here.
And if, for whatever, reason you do see the need to go on these witch hunts, at least make sure to get the facts right, which probably should include actually communicating with the author getting the other side of the story before making accusatory and inflammatory posts about your concerns (if that had been done here, the entire false allegation about lack of permission and copyright infringement could at a minimum have been entirely avoided, and the lack of understanding of how an older photo of someone, who is now an adult, came to be used would also have been cleared up).
@smooth I agree, but im not really a believer in downvoting , if I don't like a post I just move on I don't downvote or make a stink.
if I would bring 4000 new users which are chicken lovers, would you like to see on trending only content about chickens? Do you think that would be good selling point to any potential new investors or users which are not a chicken lovers?
Downvoting is an only way to rebalance content, to actually make it more appealing for average user which is not yet on the platform.
Right now on the platform are mostly crypto-currencies enthusiasts. Bitcoin (price) was and still is risky, so you can easily assume, that most of people on steemit really like risk and everything associated with that... like betting.
I as investor do want to have this platform only for people which like betting. Betting popularity contest is even worse, its not even fair, because it can be manipulated by voters.
That's why from now on, I will flag every post which will buy votes.
and I am not afraid being threatened by steemsports anymore.
Absolutely yes! (It would not literally only be chickens any more than it is only Steemsports or has ever been only anything.)
The Trending page is statistical summary of the unpaid posts with the highest stake-weighted voting. Nothing more. If the community grows rapidly (4000 active users would likely grow it by a factor of five or so), then whereever the growth (and interests of the user base, as well as potential growth) is greatest should and likely will dominate Trending. I don't care if that is sports or chickens or pizzagate or boobies.
Trending is not an Editor's Picks page or a page that shows the variety of all topics that are being discussed on the site regardless of popularity. You're looking for a different page (that may not currently exist)
What is important is not what is on Trending, nor that Trending is a featureless blob of all sorts of posts that are approved by @noisy. What is important is that it can, and does, change and adapt to the shifting interests of the, hopefully growing, user base and stakeholders.
I thought this too but I was corrected. The popularity contests were not judged by the voting. They were judged by an external poll.
rize chikun!
HAHAHA
So what?
People really lack perspective on this. Does anyone really think there is a correct answer to "Who is the Steemiest?" That cheating and manipulating the answer to that question is a matter of great importance?
It is a silly game with a low barrier to entry where the primary function of it is to provide some entertaining content and act as a faucet and distribute a bit of rewards to a lot of people. Which it will certainly do regardless of whether the poll is tampered with or not.
Also, let's say hypothetically people really cared about "Who is the Steemist?" Are you sure you would be the only one manipulating the poll? What happens when one @halo fan manipulates it one way and another @denvermax fan manipulates it the other way? And how are voters supposed to know which manipulation will prevail? But I digress, since again the result of the poll doesn't matter much.
I certainly would prefer that to the F'U approach. No disagreement there!
Wow, contacting someone personally before blasting them?
What era do you live in @smooth?
(Joking- I'm just pointing out that that should always be the preferred method of attempting to "right a wrong" or "fix a perceived problem."
Agreed, we and the founders of our project are very open to communication.
That's the way to be!
Great comment! Thank you!
Thumbs up! Very well said @steemgames. Thank you! Your business idea has been called juvenile. I think now it's pretty clear who is juvenile here. People need to understand that self-governance and freedom of speech doesn't mean you can forget about respect. I don't know where this wave of F'Us and flags has come from, but it's poison to steemit's community.
Looking forward to the next Steemy Games! ;-)
Whilst my first reaction was to find it juvenile, now that I know that all participants gave permission, and were therefore happy to be involved did go a long way to soothing any concerns that I did have. It's not the sort of thing I care for, but I also don't wish to get caught up in anyone else's FUD.
While you proved my ONE assumption wrong in regards to not getting the permission of the users you featured.. I still very much stand behind my thoughts that you selling other users sex appeal with permission or otherwise is juvenile. You're writing this post like I've just targeted you for pleasure... <_<
Start up some new games. Be my guest. But fuck if I'll let you all parade around making money off of other peoples pictures while pitting them against each other. Not only morally is it wrong, but you've little to no consideration of the emotional fallout these type of games have on people.
Regardless on if they consented or not.
All this being said. I'm not here to start a war, a pissing competition or any other ill-willed shit.
This is a morality check.. What you and steemsports do is nothing more than opportunistic capitalism at the expense of others, using others pictures and sex appeal for profits.
The parts of my accusation that are infact true:
You posted a picture of a 16 year old Mrs. Steemit and duped the community into voting for the sexiness of a minor.
Little to no consideration has been given to anyones feelings here, regardless of if they consented to be part of your childish games our not. Atleast one of the reactions from the losing party was very clearly that of hurt.
The part I fucked up on:
@kyle people don't need you to be the police for their feelings , you seem to be the one with your feelings hurt. If someone gives permission to be in the game they should know it is only a game and be able to handle if they lose.
Well said, @halo. Thanks again for being a long-time member of this community spreading little red kisses throughout the comments. :)
Tell that to Craig Grant... He was pretty upset when people started making fun of his body. Can't help but think that wouldn't have happened had he not been subjected to these "games".
These style of posts are juvenile, exploitative and run by people who frankly don't give a shit about anything but money. The very fact this type of shit exists and seemingly flourishes on this platform is all the more reason for people like me who actually give a fuck about people's feelings to speak out.
I get it @halo.. It's free advertising to you. It feels nice to be voted the prettiest girl I'm sure..
But am I the only god damn one taking into consideration the blow to self esteem the loser takes in all of this? Certainly looking like it, Ya'll are to busy getting STEEM pennies to give a shit. :/
Maybe it's time to stop digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole
I can understand how someone could be against these match ups and I can understand where you are coming from when you say that these contest are juvenile and all that. Personally I don't really care if the people facing each other agree to it.
But I will admit to everyone on here that once these Steemy contest began I figured it was only a matter of time before they placed me against @ned. For those of you who have been following my blog I have exposed myself several times on here and those pictures would be fair game in the competition against @ned. Do you guys still feel like I have a chance to win?
For those of you who got a laugh out of this please follow me @brianphobos
10/10 would bang. :D
"wait, whut"
Hahahah, It's getting STEEMY!!! LOL
edit: How do you link to certain times on youtube..?
The whole start of this video is needless till the part buffalo bill says the koute above. :P
Note: KLYE does NOT endorse keeping people in holes...
Crossdressing however is cool though if it makes you feel sexy. :D
@kyle even if i was to lose and there is always a chance of that I would not be upset. when I started steemit I had people saying rude stuff to me all the time , I have dealt with it my whole life, but I don't cry about it. There will always be haters. I am sorry Craig Grant had his feelings hurt , but he is a grown man and should be able to handle a little criticism. He also knew before giving permission that he could lose. It is just a game it is not life or death.
You're right.. It's not life or death.. I do understand your point..
How long until we're doing big dick competitions on here then I guess? Because really opening up this pandoras box of primitive degeneracy is just going to lead to that. :(
You did get some pretty nasty shit said to you.. :/ Kudos to you for having strong shoulders to bare the bullshit of the internet. Sadly not everyone is as confident nor self secure as you.
Haters gonna hate, and regardless of how I seemingly come off I'm not actually a hater. I just don't want to see the platform diminished to a game of "who has the bigger titties" for the profits of the asshats hosting such silly games. :(
"These style of posts are juvenile, exploitative and run by people who frankly don't give a shit about anything but money."
I must admit that I am of a similar mind, however as essentially your argument is based on moral grounds which are not universally held by everyone, then I'm afraid your argument fails. It is exactly the same argument made by the guy who was morally outraged by the porn star woman and wanted to ban it. What was your position on that debate because it is exactly the same argument?
What I would say though is that a solution would be to have gambling and porn sections compartmentalised somehow away from the main page - much better still on a sister site or something. I agree that these 2 particular topics are not suitable for the main landing page. This is not about censorship as they would have their own uncensored blockchain and then we don't have to worry about whether these posts need tagging or censoring etc - Steemit would then too remain uncensored.
Steemit is about blogging and engaging others in conversation and such.
There is no real engagement in gambling and porn.......it needs its own sister site in my view. Just to re-iterate - this would not constitute censorship, just tidying things up and separating Steemit chains - both would remain uncensored. I mean think about it, most people don't appreciate going to a coffee house to have a chat and to be tempted by gambling and having dicks waved in their faces - let's show a bit of decorum.....lol
Eh, there isn't really an argument here.. Simply people doing shady things (my opinion) and other people calling them out on it.
Your post makes a hell of a lot of sense and it's nice to know at least a small army of users feel exactly as I do in regards to this stuff.
I think what you propose could be done on the same chain but with serious segregating of categories.. Because anyone can build a browser for the blockchain and all content from all sites would show up on it..
Anyways. Thank you for the laugh:
I literally lol'd. Thank you for that. :)
yes no probs mate. I get all fired up about things that get on my tits too....lol. I understand where you are coming from. Btw, the word"argument" has two different meanings, the first is a heated/angry exchange, whereas the second is the reasoning used to support an idea or theory - I meant the second meaning which is more commonly used in philosophical type debates.......you can probably guess I'm English......lol.
Maybe we could put this proposal to the vote, then nobody can argue (second meaning) on the grounds of either lack of consensus or censorship.......we've got this . Take care mate.
Exactly. Trying to decide for other people what hurts their feelings and what they should be ok with and stuff is really twisted imo.
To me it seems like @klye went all guns blazing with an assumption and turned out to be wrong, and rather than just apologize is trying to hang on to the idea that there's legit something to be upset about.
@klye, did you "use people for profit" when members of the community here donated money to help keep a roof over your head?
I always find it weird when people act like there's something inherently evil about profit. Profit CAN be made in shady ways, but then whatever you were doing would be shady in its own right, doing it "for profit" isn't relevant to the nature of the behavior. Kind of like how you accepted payment for the post you made, but what was wrong of you was that you spread false information, not per se that you did it for profit.
They are making so much profits it's draining on the steem pool which effects all of us ! 😉
How much?
I should have said I'm concerned more about the reward pools which are being drained ! The rest of all this banter and childish behavior with flagging wars going on does not interest me and has no place on steemit ! I'm not commenting on either side ! And do not have anything else to add , other then what I commented above , here's a link to where I got that information from ! It's all I care about ! And the last I want to say or comment on this subject ! Steem on ♨ https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/the-big-voting-game-change-proposal
Well theoretically you earn rewards commensurate to how much value you're bringing to the community, it's not zero-sum where the community is worse off whenever somebody earns a lot of rewards.
You can make the case that steemsports doesn't provide enough value to justify the rewards they get and encourage people to stop voting for them. But accusing them of moral wrongdoing as @klye has done is silly.
Well said, where have you been all this time!!? Profit is never bad, we should encourage people to make profits on our platform and not show there is a potential ceiling, what business will come here if they see other businesses only have a pre-determined earnings ceilings. Would Coca-cola be chased out of here for vote buying if they gave out free Cokes to every voter on their posts? Things are getting crazy here fast, we need some relaxation and calm.
@kyle I don't understand your frustration over this if both people give permission.
It's a matter of they are using you for profit in short..
Perhaps I'm a little less inclined to watch people get hurt by losing these types of games. :/
"Using" people who give their consent to it.
You could consider that people have their own various reasons to want to be in the contest, such as publicity on the site, and don't feel "exploited" at all.
It's still very much people being profited off of and exploited no matter how you slice or perceive it, yay capitilism. I get the advertising and marketing side of it, absolutely..
But at the end of the day I still feel it's petty bullshit cooked up with the sole intention of attracting whale votes using others sex appeal.
Welcome to humanity, klye!
Life is give and take. The way I see it, if both parties of a "transaction" get what they want out of it, without stepping on the (human) rights of others, it's an all out win.
Whether or not a third party perceives some exploitation in the deal, well, that's for them to exhaust over. The world keeps spinning, regardless.
You have your own perspectives on morality. They differ from others. If someone in the community came to you directly and said, "@klye, please help me. I'm being abused by this community you're a part of. Please raise some awareness to help me and stop this abuse." then your argument would be valid one.
Did that happen?
Did you instead take it upon yourself to define what is right and what is wrong for everyone else, regardless of their own personal consent? Isn't that a bit "juvenile"? The people involved here are adults. Let's let them be.
If I'm wrong for raising my concerns, the point of this platform is lost on me.
I'm wrong for pointing out the community was duped into voting on the attractiveness of an underage girl..? whut?
I'm wrong for trying to minimize potential hurt in people when their self esteem gets trashed because people are making fun of them because of some stupid ass cash grab game..? really?
While no one directly came out and was like "oh no, I am hurt" it was there. I saw it. And I'm CERTAINLY not the only person on this platform that is fucking sick of seeing steemsports on the front page.
My opinion is my opinion. Clearly some disagree with it. That's fine. I'm not here to teach anyone anything they already shouldn't know.. :/
If you're upset about steemsports, write a post about steemsports. Ask the community to stop voting for their posts. If you persuade people with reason and logic, problem solved. If not, you are over ruled by SP weighted majority decision. You have no recourse other than to get over it, leave, restate your case again, or become your own whale and flag the posts you think are abusive to the community.
What I take issue with here is you're accusing others of moral failure instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt. Instead of asking questions (privately or publicly) you make very strongly worded accusations. Instead, "Hey this could be bad from my point of view. What do you think?" might've worked better. I don't think you're wrong for posting your opinion or raising concerns. I just don't agree with the accusations and the (IMO) juvenile approach you took. Adults talk things through and ask questions in a respectful manner. Kids throw tantrums, name call, and accuse without evidence.
(For the record, I don't vote on steemsports posts)
There might be honorable ways to argue that steemsports doesn't deserve so much of the rewards pool. But the fact is you're drawing morality into it, and your argument that there's something morally relevant about these beauty pageants doesn't hold with most people.
If something isn't your cup of tea and the whales disagree, you kind of have to just live with that until they change their mind, you can't accuse people of moral wrongdoing because you don't like something.
@kyle since we are talking about morality, I don't think people should be cursing like you do, but I don't make a huge deal about it. I don't down vote you for it. I just don't follow you, read your post or upvote you because of it. Nothing againts you I just don't like cursing.
You're the second person to comment today on my language..!
It's something I'm working on. Being a tradesmen in my younger years did a number on what my active vocabulary is.. Generally I use expletives to get a point across.. Sometimes I've got more than one point in a paragraph.. So it ends up looking like what you try to avoid reading in my posts I guess.
My apologies if my sharp tongue has upset you. Wasn't my intention.
@klye, I support you very much as a friend and supporter of steemit.com; this thing may well be in beta but, as I have often said, it could be better. This is a simple manipulation of votes. If you are a big name, you get votes, whether you put up a recipe for tomato ketchup or a C&P of a news story.
Creating an internal competition is a clever idea; it would be even cleverer if there were a bit more thought put into it. Here is the catch:
We know, don't put onto the internet anything you want to erase; you cannot! Equally, don't do on the internet anything you don't want to have aired on 60 minutes. Can you imagine the furore?
"Photos of 16 year old girl posted on social media site for lurid beauty contest!"
By all means, have a laugh but please don't put the whole thing at risk by being idiotic!
Namaste!
<3 Thank you man. While admittedly I jumped the gun on part of my post that triggered this one a large portion of what I said still holds true. You've got a point with the big names thing.. Once the whale types figure they can nab up curation rewards and they all notice they are voting on the same user it just becomes an endless cycle of the same old same old.. I certainly don't want this to happen pitting users with one another. Sports is one thing.
It could be sensationalized far worse than I went at it.. I don't really know what direction we're headed in on Steemit to be honest. With some modifications I'd love to see steemsports and steemgames continue.. I can say that much.
I would ask @craig-grant if his feelings got hurt when he lost his Steemy Game competition...;-) #funny
Nah, he ain't hurt. He's too absorbed in the now to give a shiitake :)
He's too absorbed in his "flow", you mean?
I meant what I said, but you could say that, too.
He's always talking about living in the now (being present to the moment at hand), which is essentially entering the flow state. So...yeah, we're both right!
Yipeee!!!
I read 90% of his posts - i'd love to see where he said his feelings were hurt.. He's "in the now" thats his thing..
The screencap in the post I made that triggered this one.. He's the one who was commenting about the poor votes and the rich votes.. To me Craig normally seemed more laid back then to worry about who is voting for whom and I took that as a sign he was bothered.
This is a "Reality Check" : You profited from a comic depicting yourself jerking off a whale. ;)
Difference between comedy and casualty sir. .
And for the record that wasn't me jerking off the whale..!
The person depicted in that picture is clearly a ginger.
Where as I look more like this...
The evidence in this thread indicates a vast difference between your claims and reality. ;)
For that reason, I see no casualties, other than those who have faced what appear to be false accusations.
And for the record, I have no interest in the new competition and think it's juvenile as well. At the same time, I applaud those behind the account for trying something new. However, it's not something I will be supporting with my votes.
Evidence in this thread... <_<
You're a man of great tastes clearly Tuckman. Thanks for the trip down memory lane #letmeshowyouhowtowhackoffwhales
@klye your F'u post backfired. just say sorry and move on.
Even after being shitflagged by 10 accounts including smooth and steemsports the payout is still > $15.00 and the conversation and replies it sparked were the highest from yesterdays post..
I'd say it was a smashing success actually.
good for you. now since we are on the topic of hurting people's feeling and caring so much about minors, maybe u should take down your penis and boobs "art"? double -standard much @klye?
but of course, you have a history of crying wolf and then not even accepting you are wrong. dont worry I can assure you i am not "catfishing".
Totally different.
Voting on the sexiness of an underage girl is borderline pedophilia (Which the community was duped into voting for, granted).
My art is absolutely harmless to the PR of Steemit.com, and lets be honest here. There is WAY worse stuff on the internet than anything I've ever produced on MS-Paint. lol
yeah, sure. whatever you say.
I did not buy most of Kyle's arguments against it. I stated my reasoning as the rules are gameable and feelings can be hurt.
I have stated that I like what you do to some extent.
Hi Dan, this particular branch of our brand is experimental, the participants were happy taking part as it also gives them visibility. @craig-grant even just said that he wants us to continue. Not sure if you saw that there is a poll link where a secret ballot takes place, so when you vote the comments you are actually voting to predict the outcome of the secret ballot.
@steemsports is our flagship project, that one is only gameable by multiple accounts voting all outcomes, but it is not really important as the aim is to get people to receive SP and have fun, once they have SP flowing, even into an alias account they will be more engaged and take part elsewhere in the community.
Our PAY PLAY games coming out soon are 100% non-gameable as real Steem and SBD stands to be lost for poor choices, hedging will be possible however and creates a true market scenario for predictions. Basically instead of speculating on currencies one can speculate on sports and game outcomes using Steem and SBD.
We appreciate that you do like our creativity and what we do to some extent, we are actually very nice people, we just need to be given a chance.
Wishing you a great day!
Why did you not implement that in the first place? Why you decided that you first want to provide a functionality for draining rewards pool even more?
Their use is innovative as i documented in my blog.
Thank you Dan.
Innovative does not mean moral.
now youve got me curious in spite of myself. are you going to charge a fee on all bets, or just have a gap in the line/spread.
For that matter, line or spread. I guess it would have to be a line. And if there's going to be hedging possible, youd also have to offer parimutual wagering, as just a regular bet doesnt need to be hedged. But parimutual, you would have to have a significant amount of capital to back the wagers. Interesting if you get it done.
I was sent here by @steemsports presumably to show me that the take on these games by certain community members is wrong. So now I've spent the past half an hour or so reading posts, and the one that stands out the most is by @beanz. So even putting aside the accidental posting of a member when she was underage and the possibility of people's feelings being hurt, it still appears that the entire setup injures the community far more than it benefits. Is that accurate? Or more to the point, can anyone explain to me where or how @beanz is mistaken? As far as writing quality articles about sports such as @writingamigo is talking about, that would seem to be the correct way to use a steemsport platform and I can't imagine anyone taking issue with that. I certainly don't.
Hi @dreemit we have spent most of the morning on this topic and not sure which post you refer to by @beanz as there are a number of them on her blog, including resteems. But if you ask about value, first have a look at our value proposition on our beta app post:
https://steemit.com/steemsports/@steemsports/join-the-steemsports-beta
Then have a look at the website we are developing https://steemsports.com and the about us page which tells you a bit about our project.
Also try and think rationally, we are not about the moneygrab, in-fact we are less so, every other author keeps his full post rewards, including @stellabelle who has been very vocal against us, she has currently 186 000SP in author rewards vs our 127 000SP and she is one person, this also means that she would have earned the same amount in liquid rewards which she hasn't given back to anyone and kept for herself.
We give away 97% of our liquid rewards to writers, editors and to players, do you know of any other authors who are creating jobs for writers and are giving away any of the rewards? Would you yourself ever consider earning only SP and almost no liquid rewards while everyone else earns both? We don't even feature in the top 200. Also with the exception of @officialfuzzy I don't know who else gives away any meaningful post rewards.
The aforementioned SP is not even enough for two month's worth of runway for a company in the real world. Our PAY PLAY games will change things, it will create a demand for Steem and SBD and the only major service that will create a demand for it at this point.
you are incorrect in one important way: "she is one person, this also means that she would have earned the same amount in liquid rewards which she hasn't given back to anyone and kept for herself." I created the secret writer project that gave 50% of the SBD's to the authors who provided the secrets. I edited and did all the photography selections for these posts. I created this service for months, redistributing liquid rewards to people who did not have a following.
I would add also that my halloween contest gave away 850 Steem, I've given to those who were hacked, and also people who suffered various issues. To say that I have not given away anything is completely false.
Okay, I'd be glad to look through this, I'm not one to jump on bandwagons, but I also have to tell you that this goes back a little further. The first time I heard anything about this was on a post by @generation.easy. In the comments @sigmajin explains the voting system and it unfortunately seems to be a long time consensus of a number of people that what you do hurts the voting pool. However as I said I will look at everything you have before making my own judgment. I don't know @stellabelle incidentally, I haven't seen her posts. Perhaps the Pay Play will resolve some of these issues anyway? Definitely sounds interesting.
[replying to your later reply]
It was somewhat accurate, but there are a lot of details to work through:
Actually it is both. If there were no posts with a lot of votes, and every post got just one minnow vote, then every post would indeed receive a reward, I believe somewhere in the neighborhood of $3 currently (rough estimate). However, this is completely unrealistic. In practice if you downvote some high-paying posts like Steemsports, nearly all of those rewards are just going to flow to the other high-paying posts. There has never been a time in the history of Steemit when there weren't high-paying posts (though they have sure varied over time!) and there almost certainly never will be.
The low-voted posts will always have to compete with some high paying posts gaining most of the reward pool; that is the design of the system.
I don't personally disagree with downvoting high paying posts if you think they are overrewarded (and I have done so, including this one), just recognize that you are giving the rewards mostly to other high-voted posts (possibly at a slightly lower tier of high-voted, if all the highest-voted posts were downvoted), not to the posts with one or two minnow votes.
Even a post with just a single whale vote (say 1 million SP) will earn 100 million times as much as a post with a single minnow vote (say 100 SP). There is just no way that those low voted posts are ever going to earn a significant (if any) reward, regardless of what specifically happens at the top. That part is a myth. The system just isn't designed for people with low SP to be able to vote themselves any reward. It takes many small votes or a smaller number of large votes to do it.
she was actually quoting me, from a reply to a post about using some baseline amount of guaranteed votes for every post to create a universal basic income on steemit.
My point was that, because of quadratic weighting, if you added X steem power in votes to every single post, it would increase payout disparity, because that X steem power would give more vshares (and therefore more money) to high paid posts. That is to say that you would be giving X vshares to every low paying post, but you would be raising the threshold for how many Vshares it takes to get paid by some number greater than X.
Im not saying that there is any good way to distribute out money to every single post on steemit (or even that it is desirable) but if that is what youre trying to do, for a fixed amount of voting power, the most effective strategy is to downvote many high paying posts, rather than upvote many non-paying posts.
Replying here due to nesting
I don't necessarily agree that its irrelevant. For example, in your example, another minnow with 100sp might want to decrease that disparity. His vote would be infinitesimal either way, but it would have 6000 times the effect if he downvoted the 1m post than if he upvoted the 100 post.
idk about UBI, but i do believe that a wide spread acceptance of the downvote as a valid means of redress for overvalued posts is the only way to get there with a feasible amount of steem power.
especially if it was big dolphins or little whales doing it, it could have a big impact.
I actually was origninally going to post a somewhat detailed model of the math here, but it was so long i made it into an OP.
https://steemit.com/til/@sigmajin/til-the-best-strategy-for-reducing-rewards-disparity-in-defense-of-the-flag-part-i
@sigmajin
On the narrow mathematical point that it is strictly speaking more effective at approaching a basic income by some infinitesimal and practically irrelevant amount, I agree. Unfortunately it is easy for people who are not so mathematically inclined to misinterpret statements like this and think they have some practical significance when they really do not.
Okay, that makes sense. I'm not even sure why people are crying unfair, this wasn't designed to be a socialist economy. Everyone keeps talking about quality of content, but that's all a matter of perspective.
It is a compete myth, or possibly a lie (if the person making the claim understands what they are talking about), that it "hurts the voting pool". The voting pool is fixed, and posters (and commenters) compete for votes. It only "hurts" to the extent that people who are posting things that are less compelling to stakeholders get less. (At the moment; as stated elsewhere, this can and does change over time.)
Okay. To be clear the comments of the post I mentioned explained how it was effecting it, the one commenting was not speaking out against steemsports only explaining the way voting works and using it as an example. I don't want to pull someone into this who might not want to be in the middle. Though there were others who seem to have strong opinions about it. Anyway what you're saying is that you for example would choose steemsports/games to vote on simply because it's what you like and not because it will in some way benefit you, correct?
[replying to your later reply]
That's not only a hypothetical, that is usually how it actually works. I don't often enter the contests even though I vote on the posts and I often vote so late that my curation rewards are little to nothing. I'm voting on their posts because I think it adds value and they have invested and are investing a lot in improving Steem and it is good for Steem when people and businesses do that.
Sorry, I'm really just becoming aware of this entire situation other than comments I've heard along the way. I'm not one of the flaggers or down voters, I'm just attempting to understand what this controversy is all about since people I've recently become acquainted with are smack in the middle of it. Haha, I didn't even know you were a curator, four weeks here, I'm still learning :)
[replying to your later reply]
This is a decentralized p2p system. Everyone is a curator. It is weighted by the amount of SP you have. I have a lot so my vote counts more, but everyone counts, even a brand new user with minimum SP.
It may be a bit mind-bending when you first start to think about it, but the nature of the system is very different from something like Facebook where people and algorithms work in secret to decide what gets shown and how. Here everything is determined by the users and everything is public.
I thought that all changed with the hardfork? I was here for about a week before then and I watched my SP go up from curation, and this was when I had much less of everything. Now it only moves when I make something from a post. Also I've seen Curator listed on people's descriptions so I thought there were people specific to the task. Thanks for explaining.
The only thing that would make showing my comment over and over more awesome would be if I wrote LOL instead of haha...I tend to laugh inappropriately when I'm uncomfortable or tired and apparently I type laugh for these reasons as well, sweet! Jeeze. I know I must sound clueless, this type of thing is not my strong suit.
[replying to your later reply]
Nothing about curation changed from the hardfork. The overall rewards (both posting and curation) were cut a bit, but the mechanism is the same as before.
The main thing that changed is that you earn a lot less SP by doing nothing, but since much less STEEM/SP is being created the value should be expected to decline less and/or increase more. Overall it didn't change much related to the social site aspect at all; the changes were more of interest to investors and speculators.
If people put "Curator" on their profile, that is no different that putting "Professional Troll" on there. Anyone can put anything they want on their profile (again, decentralized p2p system; no one is in charge).
Yeah, I figured that last part out by what you said before. Though there is definitely a big difference, I have continued voting the same as before and really, there's nothing coming in from it.
I may as well ask one last thing-The following was a response to a post someone had awhile back, would you say it was a lie, a myth, or inaccurate?::
What you don't get is that the rewards pool is fixed. Non paying posts that have a bunch of votes aren't non paying because there aren't enough votes, theyre non paying because the huge amount of votes behind the top paying, whale supported posts devalue votes. And because the votes are calculated quadratically, the support they get devalues other votes disproportionately. Thats why your vote adds so much money to a top trending post, but almost nothing to a new post.
So someone like old timer, who has a vote worth 1 or 2 cents on a post like this, his vote is actually worth far more on a top paying post. If he went to trending and downvoted the top 10 trending posts, he would probably distribute 50 or 60 bucks to the rest of the posts in contention for the day.
Of course this is never going to happen, because overpaid authors here who get paid mainly for poor quality posts created a myth that there are rules about when you're allowed to downvote.... and they enforced that myth by threatening reprisals to anyone who voted in a way that they don't agree with.
TO put it another way, the money to give everyone 20 cents per post (or whatever) has to come from somewhere. Specifically, it has to come from other, higher paid posts' payouts.
Because of quadratic weighting, just voting for underpaid posts won't have a ton of effect. It would if you just did it for one, but it won't if you do it for all of them (because it will increase the total number of votes cast)
And this was someone else's response to this comment::
Damn, that brought some light to the situation. So basic income wouldnt even be possible, unless say, steemsports went away?
And if what you say is true, minnow votes would be better spent downvoting posts, which would increase value for others... that is extremely backward.
If this is accurate then it explains why people are up in arms. If it's not accurate but is somehow the general consensus of what's going on, well it has the same effect on the overall mindset but if you could set the record straight than it could stop the ongoing dispute.
vote buying is wrong. If steemsports would be non-profit, then I will be still against betting, but then they will at least proved that they are not making this for money.
They can really very easily right yet another script and power down in 13 weeks, only to power up all their voters accounts... and increase distribution even more.
This is a nonsense argument. They never claimed to be non-profit, nor is there any requirement that businesses within the Steem/it ecosystem be non-profit. We want to attract and encourage businesses to form, invest, build, market, and create value in the Steem/it ecosystem, which is exactly what Steemsports is doing.
The whole vote-buying aspect is completely irrelevant too. Most of the rewards on Steemsports, and everything else, come from whale voters who probably don't participate in the contests at all, or disqualify themselves by voting for both outcomes. If whales do participate (occasionally I do, just for the hell of it), the payout is far less than what I could earn on curation voting for something else (if I win, which isn't guaranteed).
When it comes down to it, Steemsports isn't really gambling, and it isn't really vote buying. It is sports blogging with a give-away or faucet-like contest attached to it. But either way, it certainly isn't non-profit (nor are most posters on here) and that's perfectly okay.
I beg to disagree since it is the reason so many people band wagon into the game with no interest in the content or "fun" and clearly the reason they are afraid to dump that aspect.
It's a sports-themed faucet. Faucets are popular (surprise, free money!) but they have their place. The nature of all faucets, including this one, is that they appeal most to small holders or non-holders (large holders can't be bothered), thus broadening and expanding the distribution.
I see nothing wrong with giving away coins, nor with getting support from major stakeholders to build a sports-themed concept and blog and a game around giving away coins, something which major stakeholders of crypto platforms often support. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Well said @smooth, thank you!
I do not said that they have to be non-profit. I said that if they would, then I could believe, that they are not taking advantage of whole community.
If the whole steemsports team were to be paid from the daily rewards, it would be more profitable for us to quit steemsports and go work @ mcdonalds for 1hr each and enjoy the rest of the day.
Free games have a place and time, and currently they are helping us bootsrap SteemSports (amongst other things, such as providing a faucet and driving engagement).
However, the only way how SS can win in the long term is if we can build something that can attract thousands of players from the outside of steem community that is willing to play real money games. That requires time and capital, and because SteemSports is based on STEEM, its user acquisition is also STEEM user acquisition.
More users on STEEM + demand for STEEM and SBD are a net positive side effect on the long term.
Perhaps we did a bad job of communicating our vision. SteemSports of yesterday is completely unsustainable, and it was never intended to be the final product. We are working hard on making SteemSports real, and no - we are not getting rich of the rewards pool. It merely gives us some bootstraping power to fuel future growth, as well as drives user engagement / marketing in the interim.
We are building an app that is a more user friendly frontend to the STEEM blockchain for these types of games. The Beta is out already. We create high quality content that may hold some SEO value and bring new users to steemit.com trough search engines. The voting mechanism, if working correctly, is supposed to reward this.
We are experimenting our way into a product market fit. We have built traction and following already. We know there are thousands more people out there that we will eventually serve.
+1
Giving away free coins would be fine if it were coming from the company or person. But it isn't. It comes from the reward pool and it given to them directly by the people who want the reward. It's a game of
"I'll give you some money if you give me some money" and this is what causes a band wagon effect and this is what undermines the system in place to prevent pile ons for rewards.
The point of curating is to find quality content that other people will like. By selling our votes we are choosing content that we have been bribed to choose instead of content that interests us.
It is voters deciding that coins from the reward fund should be given away (as part of a sports-themed concept that includes blogging, an element of gameplay, and wider distribution of rewards with a low barrier to participation).
It is no different than voters deciding that coins should be spent on a billboard, or a photoshoot, or developing a mobile app, helping to fund Steemfest, or paying a writer/blogger, or anything else.
That's the nature of this system. Voters decide to allocate rewards where they think it provides the most value. I and a good number of other voters think Steemsports giving away coins to players is a good use of reward funds. I don't even participate in the games most of the time.
@smooth , if this were true then they would not need to buy the votes. Somebody who votes to get a few pence back does NOT think that adds value. They're just "playing the game" because the only way to lose the game is to not play the game.
Someone for whom voting to get a few pence back is attractive likely has a vote that is so tiny it makes no real difference. You don't seem to get that most of the rewards on those posts come from the whale votes. The requirement to vote is actually a deterrent to play by larger stakeholders and focuses the benefits of the game on smaller stakeholders because for the former, the value of the vote is more than the payout. A larger stakeholder would make more just voting on one of his or her own comments (as I did here as a demonstration for a currently-estimated payout of $7, compared to the $0.16 I got from a recent Steemsports game; I'll burn the comment reward when I receive it).
Come on Boys :)
@smooth - how many % do you own of @steemsports? and how many % does @nextgencrypto own? etc.. etc... It is a serious question btw.
come on guys - this smell "organized crime" (in lack of a better term) long way, are you taking us for fools? Are @beanz and @noisy idiots who don´t understand it, then make us all a favor and do a real keynote-presentation and account for everything in the plans, you just paid yourself a $7 upvote, and obviously you like money and business no matter if you burn the $7 publicly tomorrow matters nothing when there is a million users on @steemit and that 50% rake is worth millions of dollars over time.
I have seen how @engagement, @illbeyourfriend, @thecyclist, @croatia, @ozchartart, @coinbar, @steemservices, @ozmaster, @nextgencrypto, @silversteem, @silver, @justin, @nextgenwitness, @berniesanders and yourself (guess how many real people are behind those accounts) shit and piss on @ned & @dantheman whenever you can, wherever you can - and I think it is time for all of you "who mined Steem from the start" to put all your cards on the table and tell us what the hell it is that you want.
Why not open up the " @steemsports company " for everyone and hold an ICO and be completely transparent about it and make sense instead of sneaking around acting like first time petty thieves/pick pockets.
Have you ever considered that there might be hundreds of people in here that would like to buy shares in the SteemSports Company? I mean seriously - that account will be worth billions of dollars over time accumulating steempower, or it will become worthless if everyone who is not an owner of @steemsports organize into a union against your casino in old fashion labour-party-style.
And who knows - maybe that is exactly what will happen as smart money is coming into steemit, while ... well, "the early miners" are trying to rule this little world.
How about some common decency and transparency for once? You all gave me hell for yelling at @heiditravels one time, and you guys are a gang who points fingers at everybody but yourself. Do you not understand that we see everything you do, and talk about everything we see?
How about you guys stop being shady, and start talking with us, be upfront and honest about things for a change?
Would be profitable.
@smooth , I absolutely understand that it is the whales who are funding these vote buying games that is why I am removing my witness vote from anybody who does.
It is quite peculiar that you think providing opportunities for smaller stakeholders to easily increase their holdings and broaden the distribution of SP would be harmful and a reason to change witness votes, but everyone is entitled to use their votes as they see fit (well, not apparently according to you, but I do believe this, and that it applies to everyone including you).
This is an illusion. The minnows are increasing their holdings by a rate of less than 20c per day while this one account goes from being a minnow to a whale within a couple months without ever having to buy any steem like the rest of us. This reduces the demand for steem as successful vote buying gamers no longer have to buy to become a whale.
There was never any idea that one had to necessarily buy to become a whale. The premise of Steem has always been that if you are successful in getting votes for your content, as Steemsports has been, along with many others, you can earn your SP. Or one can buy. Both paths have always been there, just as they are now (along with mining and witnessing).
Yes, this is what I have been hearing, and this is what concerns me, not whether people want to participate in games of hotness, that's their prerogative.
as @klye wrote, steemygames just showed one another example, that they have different perception of morality.
If that would be only about goodness of a platform and redistribiution, why they not spend their SP, to power up their voter on weekly basis? Because then, they would not have any interest in doing steemsports.
After learning they were getting consent my main concern too was users inadvertently getting hurt feelings, also how / where pictures were being sourced. I'm aware as consenting adults it "shouldn't matter" about feelings but I can't help but think no good will come of pitting our users against each other in looks for the profit of others. :/
Also, it is funny how sport events are being flagged by someone. Let's be honest, those were rage flags, having nothing to do with the articles. I cannot comment on nothing else, but my work. I spent 2 hours writing a review of Zalgiris-Olimpia game. Everythin what was predicted ended up to be true - Zalgiris won by 8 points (I said it will win by 3-8 points). I can almost guarantee that following my advices on those games and betting on the outcome, would make you earn some money. That's how much I know about my field.
You won't get much more quality reviews on games as you do on SteemSports, people... I get paid to write about basketball, and I spend my time to write it on Steemit as well. That personal Vendetta against some imaginary problems only hurt me and my editor - the ones who spent time and knowledge to creat high quality posts in sports world (anyone who is into sports, tell me that I am wrong). Funny, isn't it?
Hey my friend :) I don't think that people would ever take issue with high quality articles such as you would most definitely write. It seems that part of this was a misunderstanding, but also @beanz has been raising some issues that are not about the content of the games, but rather what these games are doing to the voting power overall, at least from what I understand of it. This is her most recent article: https://steemit.com/vote-buying/@beanz/the-judging-panel-and-how-they-keep-the-game-fun-for-everyone But I would certainly be willing to hear others weigh in on how her information is inaccurate. Though she is not the only one to bring this up, it's becoming a bit of a theme.
I only have 2 problems with the"steemygames"
Steemgames is way better for steemit than steemsports is, player haters arise when something is powerful, you should keep the steemgames going, I think it's great, and it can rise above the flags
@klye you see, even @craig-grant was happy with it and wants it to continue, you didn't have to police his feelings, yet another mis-assumption.
This is my main concern ! The drain on the rewards pool! There needs to be a better way of doing all of these games ! And here's a link where I got my information from ! And I agree with ! I'm not against the games or betting , I do it myself! It just needs to be done in a better way , if that can be figured out ! ♨😉 https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/the-big-voting-game-change-proposal
Good points. While I'm not in any way interested in who is more "steemy" 😂 I agree that etiquette would be nice. There's no direct way to impose that (thankfully) so I guess posts like this rally us all up to support it ad hoc, as we vote up, down or not at all.
You do make your own accusation here
Further, you imply that @kyle did this only for the Steem
For the record, while I don't support @kyle in this issue, this post is a red flag for me in tone as well as content.
Where is that post so we can judge by ourselves ? Seems like it's nowhere, not even shown as a hidden post.
https://steemit.com/steemygames/@steemgames/the-steemy-games-halo-vs-denvermax
Had seen it but since both of these people seems way older than 18 years old I didn't think it could have been it.
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