Automation along with Artificial Intelligence might be one of the most discussed subjects right now in regards our future social structure. Even though we are far from automated economies and 'Ghost In the Shell' type of scenarios, sci-fi literature and the pop-science news have a created a strong sentiment around the the idea.
It was thought once that the discovery that Earth is not at the center of the universe would nullify the argument of God. We were wrong. The spiritual longing of humanity seems to have been inventing new ways of suggesting that there might be something greater than us, that somehow controls us. In Star Wars that Was "The Force", in Einstein's God was something similar (much like Spinozas). We are walking heresies trying to figure out where all this grandiose of existence fits and how we all relate to it.
While philosophically we found ourselves in dire straights in regards to who or what guides this flow of existence, we are creating our small universes and creatures that resemble our very nature. We build robots, blockchains, missiles, probes, computers and programs that have a life of their own. We try to integrate in them as much information as possible using ourselves as inspiration — and we are doing a great job at it.
Much like works of art, we breathe life and soul into our creations that create such an awe that makes us question our very own soul. Where do we get all this inspiration. Why do we create and explore? Most people create their own narrative that comes either from religion, superstition or plain speculation. We cannot have all the pieces of the puzzle and thus we fill in the gaps.
Within this rhyme of thought we now find ourselves asking about the potentiality of our existence. Is our flesh and bones relevant? What is a soul after all other than a concept that was created long before we knew basic human anatomy. What are our emotional responses other than lines of code embedded in our physiology? How do we have control of who we are if generation after generation this very code gets embedded into the wider ecosystem, becoming pawns of all existence?
These are hard questions and even though we do have answers for all of them, accepting such reality is scary. Most people draw meaning from life based on a given narrative. A soul gives a purpose for existence. Even if we do create robots that think and act like us, some kind of heresy will still exist that the "original" is somehow different. Artificial intelligence might be even be more sophisticated than our puny biological minds yet some of us (at least of a while) will chose to remain romantics. A soul is nothing more than the random electrical signals that reassure us about a shared narrative that takes place in our bodies. We will continue accepting the idea until the truth is too hard to bear.
Fortunately for us, consciousness is not something we can make in a computer.
We have to teach robots what a door is. And then what a door knob is, and then how to work with those things. And still, the robot does not really understand inside and outside.
Mystics and meditators can tell you that there is something more beyond this 3D reality. That our thoughts are not in our brain. And so, the entire thought structure that we just build a complex enough computer, and viola, life... just doesn't pan out. At that point, we may be able to create robot machines instead of flesh and blood machines that we call our body.
But, they would be slow and clunky, even if they worked, because the flesh and blood machine has many layers that doctors and scientists still call "superstition." Even when many scientists have photographed some of these layers, the scientists still scoff.
Further, many of our senses seem to send signals back in time so that our brain processes them at the time they happen, not at the time + time to transmit + time to process.
So, these people thinking about these things should really work on their fears. Find out where they are coming from. That would be a good use of their time. Else, they are just trying to reinvent the wheel, before reinventing the car that mystics are already driving around in.
great reply.. i would add that quantum theory shows that we are connected to our reality.. some would go on to say that we are creating our reality by decoding consciousness through our senses giving us the impression of a fixed reality rather than a reality that quantum theory maps out..
Quantum theory does no such thing. It is just a mathematical model that predicts the behaviour of particles/waves fairly well, those particles themselves also being a model, and not reality, or even necessarily a projection of reality.
The same applies to children, and not all of them will later understand or want to know about the internal mechanics of a door lock.
So could I, but that doesn't make it true.
I've seen AI-controlled robotic arms and hands balance broomsticks, four-legged robots running up hills in rough terrain with an elegance a human would find hard to emulate, and conversation robots talking quite coherently with a human in real time. Nothing slow or clunky about those.
Anyway, my having a soul, whatever that is, is not threatened by sufficiently complex and noisy machines also having a soul, so I don't see much point in fighting the idea.
I had an experience.
And then you come along and say, that experience wasn't true.
Where does that leave us?
Whether you call it hallucination or something else, it is still my experience, and is my life.
Robotics is extremely slow.
Especially in data acquisition and pattern recognition.
It is also extremely slow because it uses electrical impulses very noisy delivery conduits.
But, as you have said, these can be all overcome, and robotics can be used to do far more precise and repetitive tasks that it has been trained for.
It is really hard to explain this unless you are actually working on robots. Limit switches, the heart of most CNC machines are extremely slow compared to all the other electronics.
Many people can say many things but those are not to be regarded as true until they are proven to be true. What do you think is the impossible part about a computer having consciousness?
Nope. All our reactions are delayed and so are our senses. They feel instantaneous to us because this is the time scale we can perceive. If somebody shoots you, you are going to feel the piercing pain at the same time as the bang of the gun because these are your limitations. But shoot that with a high speed camera and you'll see that first you get the bang, than you get the travel time of the bullet, then you'll see it rupture your flesh and only after a delay (the time for your senses and your brain to process it) you will react. Watch some slow mo videos on youtube of people being hit with things or explosions that happen with humans present and you'll see a significant delay in reaction time. So what you are saying here obviously doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
I bet you believe lots of "science".
I bet you believe that there is no aether, because M-M disproved it. But, if you look into it, they didn't disprove anything and barely made enough readings to call the thing they did an experiment. So, I bet you have all kinds of things in your mind that are categorized in the "proven" category, but are anything but.
We cannot prove out of body experiences, however many people have them and are totally changed by them. The effects they have on people are very real and quite easily measurable. But the out of body experiences cannot be proven. But, once you have had one, you cannot deny it.
A scientist who was doing brain surgery proved that our senses are not delayed.
You can go read up on this real mind bending findings.
I bet we have very different attitudes towards proof. Seems like what you are saying is that the thing you want to be true is true until proven otherwise. That's not how proof or evidence should work. I try to suspend belief in anything until the evidence is really a lot. When I talk about the knowledge we might have gathered about the world, I often use phrases like "It seems" and "is likely" and "appears to".
The legitimate questions we should be asking about any assertion (like the ones you are making) is not if they have been disproved, but have they been proven. There are many assertions that are not yet disproved, but this doesn't make them more likely to be true. If I say that the ether is made of green unicorns that are playing ping pong with all the particles and are farting out our consciousness, you will not be able to decisively disprove my claim, yet this is not a reasonable claim to believe, right?
You are contradicting yourself. If you have reliable measurable effects, that's something you can study and start building a case around. The things is, they don't seem to be reliable. You are talking about how little data this or that scientific experiment might have, but I bet you can't point to a larger data set that supports your beliefs even just barely. You are talking about how little data "the other side" has while you think anecdotal evidence is sufficient to prove your point. Have you noticed that inconsistency? Or if you have larger and more reliable data sets and experiments, then please share them, so instead of talking about opinions, we can talk about evidence? I bet you don't have any reliable and repeatable evidence, do you?
I'd like to point out that I really don't have a horse in this race, what I care about is learning more about reality. I would find it quite comforting and pleasant to learn that we have eternal souls and that there are other realms of being that come after death. I want my consciousness to exist forever. But if there isn't enough evidence to support those claims, it is not reasonable for me to believe them, even if it would be pleasant, fulfilling and comforting.
Sure, where? Who's the scientist. And more importantly how many other scientists have repeated this experiments and have confirmed his findings. You realize you talking about a physics-defying result. If that's confirmed that a Nobel Prize for the guy at the very least. Contrary to popular belief (or should I say conspiracy-theorist
level misconception), the scientific community loves and strives for findings that disprove what we initially thought was true. Scientists advance their carriers not by confirming things, but by proposing, discovering and confirming new things. Think of all the famous scientists. Virtually all of them found something new and had us discard a previous belief. Before Einstein we though motion is Newtonian, Einstein disprooved that and he was celebrated for it. Before the double-slit experiment, we though particles behaved in deterministic ways. But when we discovered that they don't, that was celebrated. So somebody showing instantaneous senses or information going back in time is somebody who would be really celebrated in the science community because that would advance our understanding.
I'm just pointing it out to preempt a "they-are-all-hiding-his-findings" argument.
It was not celebrated, and is still highly contested or outright ignored.
Take it this way, if we believed in the double slit experiment, we would not believe in Einstein's theories. One disproves the other.
I get into a group of shaman or into a group of out of body experiencers, they all agree that the mind is not in the brain. It is self evident. And everyone who does what it takes to join one of these groups see much the same thing. Inside these groups, there is no doubt. But, to most scientists, it is literally arguing that there is an invisible dragon in your garage.
Of course, there is no proof that the invisible dragon exists. But once you learn to see it, you will never be the same again.
Surely if i can learn to see the dragon then its no longer invisible and besides I dont even own a garage so the jokes on you dragon!
But seriously - not sure if you are psychotic or just an idiot. Thats a question Science may be unable to answer as yet
Yes, it would no longer be invisible to you, but, can you prove its existence? Its still invisible to everyone else.
For a factual incident of this sort, try looking up ghosts and angels. Many people have seen them. However, most of the science community says they don't exist.
Or look up the Mandela Effect. Half of the people remember something different. How is this possible, when the past is supposed to be the past and unchanging?
Find me a proper physics textbook where it's not celebrated.
I have to say you are entirely wrong here. We might struggle with interpreting both with a unified theory, but both the double-slit experiment and the experiments and observations that have confirmed Einstein's relativity stand. It doesn't matter who tries the double-slit experiment, it works, so it's reliable. And it doesn't matter who tries to use GPS (which is adjusted for the effects of relativity), it works. Our understanding of why both apply and how they would work together might still be lacking, but the experimental data still stands and so does the predictive power of both theories in the areas when they don't overlap. They break down only when they have to work in concert in the same context, but nobody would deny that and everybody would celebrate them being binned for something better that unifies them.
If you get into a group of flat-earthers, they would all agree that the Earth is flat. Does that make the Earth flat?
That's not a real argument. And of course it's not self-evident. How could you explain that people who get brain damage might get a personality change (lobotomy as a clear example). If the personality doesn't come from the brain, than changes to the brain should not change it. And our personalities are quite easy to alter with things that alter the way the brain functions. Like drugs and alcohol. If our personality and consciousness doesn't come from the brain, why do substances that alter the way our brain functions change them?
Because scientifically-minded people demand real evidence and those groups convinced as they might be don't have any evidence to offer. If they had real evidence, everybody would listen.
If you can see it so well, why can't you come up with reliable evidence to show it exists? Why would there be no proof for something that really happens to you?
Because scientists have divided things into physics and metaphysics.
Things from the metaphysical realm, are all woo-woo, and cannot be used in any proofs for "science". Science is really set in the materialistic universe. Accepting anything outside of it is verbotin.
Just look at the arguments for intelligent design. Anyone who believes in intelligent design is thrown out of the science community. Black balled. Their papers stricken from the record.
The double slit experiment disproves Einstein's theory of relativity.
Further, all of the supposed evidence for the theory of relativity is all bunk. Einstein's theory explained Mercury's orbit much better than Newtons, however, it was still only 96% accurate. A lady published her findings recently with a 99.999% accuracy, and her theory does not use relativity.
The GPS satellite thing is a myth. I have had some people in the know say that it doesn't exist. And, it is impossible to prove or disprove. There is nothing verifiable about it. There is one group in one company that does it all. You either believe them or you don't.
Spooky action at a distance. That was what freaked Einstein out the most.
So, the latest double slit experiment finds that if you observe the "particle" that it behaves as a particle. Further, if you observe it in the future, it behaves as a particle in the past.
Further, there are many, many forks I can stick into the theory of relativity. That it is still in the science books is beyond me.
The soul is a religious invention to make us more controllable. If you do what I say, your soul will go to heaven etc! In the end we are flesh and bone, Lucky enough to live at the right distance from the sun! We have evolved consciousness but the soul is a strictly human invention!
"Memories and knowledge..."
I wonder,... when a person loses entirely his memory.. after an accident let's suppose.. and has forgot how to speak, how to walk, how to eat, his parents, friends, etc,.. all his knowledge about everything... and has to restart his life like a baby again... where did that person go.??
Where did that person that was in that body go??... and who is the new person in that body?...
What happens when the old "entity" comes back? do they fuse together or do they fight?...
This scenario eludes me since quite a while... relates to this post concerning AI though..
Do you have any theory(ies)/hypothesis?... I'd love to discuss this subject :)
Watching my mother-in-law decline through Alzheimer's made me question everything I'd ever thought about God and the human soul. Who is this person who behaves so differently from the person she once was, and retains so little of her former life? If there is a soul that's separate from the body (and the physical brain) why isn't it allowed to express itself at the end of life? Is it just eclipsed by faulty wiring, but ready to emerge restored into the afterlife at her passing?
And if there is an "Immortal Soul" that can learn and grow throughout life, but can also decline and suffer, just which version of the thing is going to get scanned and uploaded into eternity?
If consciousness evolves from the unpredictable behavior of complex systems, I think we do it a disservice by reducing it through religious narrative simplification. But on the other hand, how do people go on without such a meaningful narrative to sustain them?
This is indeed very frustrating.
Beautiful questions you've got here. Don't stop searching. I believe as many say: The body dies and the soul goes. Just as in a computer; The physical body (hardware) remains but digital information (software) travels throughout the vast "internet" eternally.
... still trying to wrap my head around that "consciousness". The word itself feels like it has so many meanings... notice the new A.I robot that came out named "sophia".
They most likely follow the "good intent " rather than its content.
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I will indeed keep searching!
I believe that we choose to come to this reality from another reality like for example how we are on the verge of creating totally immersive virtual realities of our own.. I think the experiences we have here in this reality can enable us to create a personality but at everyones core is pure positive energy and the ageing process we experience is baggage that in a way blocks that stream of pure positive energy enabling diseases to manifest etc.. I think the reason for going to a different self created reality could be to help us expand in a safe environment like for example how we dream to experience things we might not want to experience in our actual lives.. ?
Beautiful observation! And yes indeed, I agree with you.
This is perhaps one of our ways to go to a different self created reality:
The more information we acquire throughout life, the more distant we become... We repulse others to adopt others... and thus we start to relate to the people having the same interests as we do.
So what i mean is the person who looses memories or someone that is experiencing Alzheimers are only forgetting their human experience but who they really are is safe in another reality where only positive energy exists..
Whenever anybody is truly acting in a loving way that is their true self shining through.. the more time you spend in that vibration the healthier you will be
Trying to solve a spiritual problem with mental resources is like trying to fix an intricate watch with a spanner. The very fact that we are able to emotionally feel love and perceive beauty should be evidence enough that we are more than just artificial intelligence. It would suggest that we have some connection to a higher consciousness that transcends thought.
Nice post...
Thank for sharing information technology...
Please upvote my post...
Agree with you
Elon musk also warned us about this and said “AI is a rare case where we need to be proactive in regulation instead of reactive because if we’re reactive in AI regulation it’s too late,” he told a meeting of US governors.
the soul is what will separate us from the machine , no matter how bad it gets we have the moral high ground to make certian descition that machines cant and that is a plus for us humans, tech will advance and machine learning will advance as time goes by, we have a choice to make and rational mind that even the best A.I will never be as good as us in critical moments
I wil agree with you @kyricos
upvoted and follow
Is easier to accept that maybe we'll never know the full truth, although I really think consciousness can be forced and created in a machine -maybe we haven't because our focus is wrong- there's always a barrier to the full knowledge
Will advanced AI go over this barrier? we still don't know, but that's it, we don't know
I hate how people go over with concepts like DUDE BUT QUANTUM THEORIE SAYS and they didn't even know what the hell Quantum means but they still talk like they have a Ph.D. or a Doctorate in Quantum Mechanics
Or the other type that always came talking about the crazy trips they made to another dimension while taking natural magic plants in the tropical forest
That's human denial and fear of uncertainty at his full expression
If someone gets upset about my comment, I'm not saying I have the definite truth, I'm saying I don't have any truth at all, and no one has it
We are humans
Great post, Upvoted and resteemed
I agree with you.thanks for sharing it.hope people will inspire on this.keep sharing.go ahead
Since we can create such things, there's a possibility that we were also created and programed by something else. Maybe we're just a computer simulation? Just like Sims...
More interesting is that the soul is an emergent property of complex Networks 🕸️👀💡🌈
Everything makes sense only while we are alive. Our descendants bear further responsibility
I disagree with you on this, I think we humans like to play God, we like to meddle and do things which are seen as forbidden or reach and do things which makes us as a species superior. In essence our pride.
By creating AI we want to prove ourselves through the achievements of our species that we are the dominant species. We have created something never before done, we have like created life.
we humans like to play God
seems reasonable
Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters speaking of certain men and women
(Hebrews 2:11)
SO...
If Jesus was the son of God...and he said that men were his brothers and sisters.
VIOLA!
That makes us baby gods.
play is children's work.
so we better get to work hadn't we?
Playing God seem like JUSt the thing to do..
Great post!
I think people should care less about what might or might not be. This consumes too much time. Time better spent to be happy, enjoying the small things in life.
facts are pesky things.
they tend to overturn the received wisdom of the sages.
kinda makes you wonder about that wisdom don't it?
Although some find it concerning, fining out that we don't have "souls" in the traditional sense is comforting in a way as it gives us a better idea of what we are. It's easier to understand ourselves as being complex machines than magically gifted beings. I can make sense of a computer much better than I can make sense of a soul. This kind of meta thinking can give me a headache, although I read recently a new theory that everything is conscious to an extent which is becoming more and more academically accepted. Here it is if anyone is interested- https://qz.com/1184574/the-idea-that-everything-from-spoons-to-stones-are-conscious-is-gaining-academic-credibility/
Deep questions. I think Philip Dick, in his novels and stories, just started to scratch the surface of this issue.
For now I mostly agree with Daniel Dennett: that Freedom Evolves, and with it consciousness and volition, from increasingly complex systems. We might be a long way from the kind of complexity that can support true AI, but then again, technology advances on a logarithmic scale, and exponential growth can be damn surprising.
I think that we do have a soul, or inner being whatever you want to call it.. AI will be only be able to mimic this..
The more we awaken the more we come to see that we can be in this world but not of this world. The split between Artificial Intelligence and Nature is becoming more and more obvious on Earth but from my perspective the core issue lies in the fact that we try too much to give meaning to things. Love ultimately is the pure creative Freedom we have. As such, any creation is always going to be an expression of Love. Our unique Soul Light might not resonate any longer with a certain creative expression but that's ok: it helps us to identify what we want instead. Where can we get that? Potentially anywhere in the Universe! ;)
I think it's possible that whatever it is that we call a soul could exist in other vessels besides our biological ones. It will be interesting to see how AI technology progresses over the next decade or so. Kurzweil thinks we're going to see human levels of computation available affordably within that time frame (~$1000). Whether programmers will be able to capitalize on that computation is a different story. I was initially terrified at the prospect of this when I read about it almost twenty years ago but now I find it exciting. Many of the things that have come to pass since have not had the devastating impact I had anticipated. AI tech should be no different, as long as we don't pass laws banning it of course and driving development underground into the hands of ne'er-do-wells.
aceh (sabang island(
Very good
“continue accepting the idea until the truth is too hard to bear.”
Beautifully summarizes life itself.