RE: Did Zelensky just commit political suicide? Crazy stuff. Trump/JD Vance accused Zelensky of being disrespectful in the oval office, starting an argument while having "no cards".

[leaky20]

I think your opinion on him not wearing a suit is valid. When it comes to human behavior and cultural norms between people, such things are subjective, everyone has a different opinion and there is no true rule book to life, so right and wrong become value based. As such, simple words and gestures can be very offensive to different people. I accept his reasoning for not wearing a suit as being a sign of solidarity to his military. Others do not, obviously. Such is life.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the US should thank him, just pointing out my confusion why Vance made such a big thing out of it given the deal that the US is asking for is $300 billion in backpaymemt for past support and an additional $200 billion with no guarentee for future support from the US. The Ukraine was asking for future support and the US wasn't confirming that, so whats the additional 200 billions for - interest? To be clear, this isn't an act of good will the US seems to be treating it like a loan. That's how it appears to be at least.

Zelensky was referring to 2014 when Russia annexed the Crimea.

Comments

[noloafing]

The suit thing is NOT VALID

Give me a fucking break. Leaders during a time of war rarely wear business costumes. Off the top I can think of Churchill at the Whitehouse.

And if I follow your logic of the "most powerful man", Musk must be the more powerful of the two because I don't remember seeing any comments about him not wearing a business costume when he was in the Oval office.

[leaky20]

I don't know if this is directed at me but I also outlined above that I felt the suit issue was not valid. It felt like it was meant as an ambush more than anything.

To be honest I'd rather society not even debate the suit comment. The philosopher Noam Chompsky outlines it nicely

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum... That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

The suit debate feels like that type of situation to me. Allow people to argue over nonsense while the real issues get swept away. The rest of Chompsky's speech is interesting as well because it speak about how such issues and debates lead to division in society

... you are struck by the narrowing of thought and understanding, the limited nature of legitimate discussion, the separation of people from each other. The goal is a society in which the basic social unit is you and your television set. If the kid next door is hungry, it's not your problem. If the retired couple next door invested their assets badly and are now starving, that's not your problem either."

[stayoutoftherz]

The Crimea was always Russian, since centuries, plus there was an election. The people there feel as Russians, that´s undoubted.

[leaky20]

It's not undoubted. Both sides of the conflict say something different so it really depends on who the individual sides with.

Research briefing from The UK House of Commons Library titled "Conflict in Ukraine: A timeline (2014 – eve of 2022 invasion)"

Toward the end of February 2014, unidentified military figures, later confirmed to be Russian personnel, surrounded the airports in Crimea, a majority-Russian peninsula in Ukraine. The Crimean autonomous assembly was then seized by pro-Russian forces.

In March 2014 the assembly issued a declaration of independence and a subsequent referendum on union with Russia was held. According to Russian election officials, 95.5% of voters supported union with Russia. The results of that referendum are not internationally recognised.

Then on the United Nations website the March 2014 "UN general assembly voted not to recognize the referendum held in autonomous Crimea" - 100 votes in favor to 11 against.

So at least 100 UN countries are doubting the validity of the referendum.

I found the same account of events on the US Embassy website, Wikipedia, Britanica, and several North American news sites. My point is not to be argumentative but the messaging will be different on both sides of the conflict, as these things always are. So Zelensky isn't "lying" since he and at least 100 other nations believe what he's saying.

[noloafing]

Fuck off, it wasn't.

The borders were drawn during the fall of the soviet union. By this logic Texas, California, etc should be Mexico, and if they decided to launch an invasion the USA should just immediately surrender.

I mean, the people there feel as Mexican, that's undoubted.