This is gonna be another contentious one. I don't know why I keep doing these, I'm already pumping out 4 a day and still struggling to stay afloat. Which part of my brain thinks "Articles that may alienate whales for ideological reasons would be a good idea!" and how do I have it surgically removed?
I think it's a topic worth discussing however. It's not as clear cut as either unrepentant meat eaters or dedicated vegans would like to believe. I have no serious qualms with either, they're both valid ways to live with arguments for and against. I'll just be laying out my reasoning here for why I try not to eat anything with a brain that's too complex.
Vegans and vegetarians draw a hard line between the plant and animal kingdoms. Everything on one side is okay to eat, everything on the other side is not. This perspective has a couple of problems with it. First, what about microorganisms? What about mushrooms, which are technically animals?
The vegan answer is that they are too simple. This is another way of saying they're very dumb. They have only rudimentary awareness of their surroundings and as such it's imagined they don't suffer to the same extent as animals.
This would seem to validate a hierarchy of value, where the worth of individual lives is determined by their intelligence. Most vegans and vegetarians I know would recoil from the ugliness of this perspective even though it's what they subscribe to, and how they justify eating plants but not animals.
They typically use words like "awareness" or "consciousness" instead of intelligence. I'm fine with that. But let's not pretend those qualities do not correlate reliably with the size and complexity of brains. Meat eaters on the other hand will try to establish a hard line of demarcation between humans and all other animals based on "sentience".
What is sentience, you ask? Why, it's a standard for personhood invented by humans which (by huge coincidence, I assure you) only humans legally satisfy. There are ongoing arguments that many other species show some degree of sentience, such as dolphins, whales, elephants, pigs, crows and so on. But they remain legal to eat.
Isn't the line that meat eaters draw between humans and all other animals just as arbitrary as the line that vegans and vegetarians draw between animals and plants? One privileges humans for arbitrary reasons, and the other privileges animals over plants for arbitrary reasons.
Do plants really have no awareness? What of research showing that forests exhibit emergent group intelligence due to chemical communication between the individual trees? What about plants which move, exhibiting obvious reactions to external stimuli? (venus fly traps and the like)
The exasperated members of both groups will then throw up their hands and say "well what are we supposed to eat then? Air?" Indeed, we've got to eat something. Probably the most ethically "clean" option would be fully synthetic foods compiled out of raw proteins, amino acids, minerals and so on like Soylent (though it does include oats).
That's gonna be a hard sell. Most people don't want to subsist on beige flavorless goop. As technology improves it may become possible to synthesize something more appetizing out of raw constituent molecules. No-kill meat is on the horizon, but even that involves killing the single cells the meat is comprised of as you digest them.
There is no way to live without killing, at least as of yet. No matter what anybody tells you, there is no perfect, absolutely ethically clean alternative. Such alternatives simply overlook where the killing occurs or deem it unimportant for arbitrary reasons.
Personally, I eat a pretty diverse range of foods. I avoid beef and pork just because of how complex cow and pig brains are. I know they feel fear, and it bothers me. Fish are stupid enough I am comfortable eating them. That's how 100% of them die in the wild anyway, it's just a question of whether it's me that will eat them or a dolphin, shark or whatever.
Chicken is kind of borderline. They are very stupid and only dimly aware of the world. Turkeys even moreso. I have seen chickens express and seek out affection however, which tempers my view. I think a good solution might be to intentionally breed for smaller brains.
Dolphins, though? Would you eat a dolphin, knowing what they are intellectually capable of? Have you seen how intelligent chimps are? Would you eat a chimp? I wouldn't. Too close to human for comfort. It's not even guilt, I was born with an underdeveloped guilt gland I think.
I'm just weirded out by the concept of eating what is basically just a less advanced, smaller, hairier human. Or the aquatic equivalent. Or really, anything smart enough it can communicate with me in some rudimentary way, solve logic puzzles, and so on. Surely that's an understandable position?
I mean for fuck's sake, if we're going to eat dolphins, apes and elephants, why stop there? What about especially dumb humans? If somebody is sufficiently mentally disabled, do they become okay to eat? Why should a dolphin with the intellect of a human toddler be fine to eat but a human in a brain dead, vegetative state isn't?
Another oft-overlooked dimension of this topic is resource efficiency. Cattle are notoriously resource intensive in terms of the land required, and their water consumption. Mariculture and aquaculture are vastly more efficient in terms of the amount of meat you get versus how much energy and other resources you must put into the cultivation process.
My way isn't necessarily right for everybody, and is arbitrary and based on my own feelings...but I admit that. There's no point in shaming anybody for not making the same decisions because I am not privy to their feelings or moral reasoning.
I think the desire to cause as little suffering as possible is admirable, but it should come with critical self-examination. Is there really only one correct way to eat? Is there only one correct way to exist? If you can't imagine any compelling arguments against your own convictions, probably it's because you haven't ever tried to.
I'd like to go vegan if only for efficiency reasons. I've been exposed in recent years to how good vegan food can be. What I discovered is that I don't specifically crave meat. What I crave is the savory quality that meat has. But that can be replicated without any actual meat involved. Savory flavors are not exclusive to meat.
I had a really good vegan falafel gyro today for example. The falafel was a substitute for the lamb which usually goes in gyros. But it was very savory, to the point that I didn't miss the lamb. There are also many foods where we typically have a choice of meats, and fish or shrimp is an option.
Fish tacos for example, or shrimp burritos. Fish burgers, fish and chips, and so on. There is the question of where the fish comes from, mercury levels and whether it was farmed in a sustainable way, but there are easily accessible guides online to which brands excel in that respect.
There are also easy to use apps on your phone which help you avoid irresponsible brands and buy only responsibly farmed seafood. Most restaurants which serve seafood offer some prominently displayed indication of where it comes from and how it's certified.
I really suspect every American who currently eats a lot of beef and pork could switch to eating mostly chicken and fish, and they wouldn't suffer any decrease in their quality of life. If they just didn't have the option of anything but chicken, fish and vegan substitutes, they might grumble but would get over it quickly and enjoy their meals just as much.
That temporary grumbling would be a small price to pay for the tremendous, unfathomable gains that would be realized in terms of the efficiency of food production. Dramatically, immensely reduced water use in particular, reduced poisoning of waterways with pig and cow shit that runs off from farms, etc. etc.
There's also the health factor. Look at the Japanese. How many of them are obese? Vanishingly few. They also live much longer on average than westerners. Why? Look at their diet. Lots of rice, fish, vegetables, tofu and so on. They have unhealthy options available to them, but usually sold right next to equally appealing healthy options. That isn't the case in the US where, especially in poor areas, only unhealthy options are available.
I'm not here to tell you what to eat, wagging my finger and saying "shame on you" though because I am not convinced of my own conclusions to that degree. When it comes to what we eat, really all we have are our opinions and personal reasoning. I am not certain my way is better or worse than anybody else's, but I can explain my reasons to anybody who cares to listen and they might be persuaded by it.
If anybody reading this hopes to influence the diet and other personal habits of strangers, coming at them with detailed reasoning will probably yield results more frequently than finger wagging, pearl clutching and moral admonition. The goal after all is a world with less suffering. So the important thing is persuading people to change their habits in a way that's actually effective. Tribalist bickering is satisfying, but never changed anybody's mind.
Stay Cozy!
@alexbeyman,
As a Buddhist every animal has same kind of souls and we could be animals in our past lives and can be in the future lives!
We called this cycle as the Karma! It comes to us like a cart which is coming after the bull!
Cheers~
You really nailed it here my friend.
From the holy book, it says "if you eat, don't condemn those who do not eat and if you do not eat, don't condemn those that eat"
What's works for you, adhere to it.
Great piece my friend
wow so long i think its all about emotions you know killing an animal there is feeling involved like it had a family and staff and you just ended its life for your stomach and trees cant speak,produce sound nothing even though some experiments say trees feel pain when cut or burnt ,bUT hey its plants right .thay dont show an thing its okay The whole vegetarian thing started when people started to view animals like other people thus decided we cant eat them .BUt I dont Care i will eat them because when animals get a chance at you they dont think twice sometimes they kill you for no reason and play with you body like a toy
Animals kill one another constantly, and a small number of species can and will kill humans if they are provoked or hungry. But if we ever want to move beyond the horror of nature, the smartest species on earth needs to take a shot at being better. Right now, that's us.
@alexbeyman this is the first time I've ever read an article questioning the ethical nature of my food choices. Am a happy meat eater and not a lot of questions come to mind - I usually just eat whatever I want to eat.
I know it's kind of simplistic thinking but I believe man is meant to eat whatever he seems fit - those who want to be vegans can be vegans; Meat eaters can be meat eaters. I don't think it is the responsibility of one group to question the choices of the other.
I wouldn’t either. I do eat pork, beef, fish and chicken. However, I try to avoid pork as much as possible. I try not to think about how these animals suffer before they are put on store shelfs. If I did, I would not eat it. I also don’t eat meat at all on Wednesday’s and Friday’s which doesn’t bother me at all. Perhaps after reading your post I will add another meatless day to my diet.
Do some googling on the intelligence of pigs. They are one of the smartest species on the planet. Not very different from dolphins.
I think it is a very controversial topic Alex
What is good idea for me to eat might be the worst case scenario for someone else.
For example i would never eat a snake,or dolphin or chimp as youmentioned.
But i eat red meat...while someone from India would kill me possibly for that.
But when it comes to health issues i suppose the only safe way,so that you can be 100% sure that what you eat is healthy is to growyour own vegetables or havingyour own chicken etc.
But then again who has the resourses and the
time to do so?
I really enjoyed this kind of twist.Nice subject
Hey, you have dropped another bomb with a food for thought.
Enjoyed reading. The goal of less suffering, hmmm.
I was a vegetarian for almost 2 years, thanks to the lifestyle I had developed stomach ulcers and it was total madness because I was in love with Indian and Moroccan food (many spices and fats).
I had to leave vegetarianism and eat more chicken and fish because it was the most "healthy" at that time.
I learned to cook in an academy and today I am developing low budget methods to maintain a balanced diet (I live in Venezuela and I want to help in that way).
I strongly defend the vegetarian position for the reason that it is better for the ecosystem and above all the use of water, which is our most precious resource.
True! This is something I've noticed too.
You speak reality my friend. And I agree with you 100%.
Thumbs up
I do not particularly crave agreement, and would instead like to hear your own thoughts on the topic. What is ok to eat, and what isn't?
Ohk. Sometimes, you could actually take the exact words from somebody. Hence my agreement.
To some people maybe diabetic or hypertensive, they basically have their nutritional requirements (based on health grounds).
To some people, they are vegetarians (probably because of religious beliefs) hence they are selective when it comes to meal choices.
To some people, they are left with no option than to eat what's available (probably culture barriers). Like my personal experience, there's this Particular native soup I enjoy eating and at a time in my life, I relocated to another country, I just couldn't find my favourite soup anymore. I had to make do with what was available..
So my point here is, people are faced with several conditions hence their food preference. And some, they ditch some conditions plaguing their food preference, hence they go after what suits them.
However and whatever works for you, go ahead and enjoy it. But make sure its a healthy one.
Thanks
Hm, good answer.
Hehehehe. How about I tell you that "I do not crave a verification (good or bad) of the answer I gave?"
How about you give your own thoughts on it
Hahahahaha.
Hope to read it
Hey, you have dropped another bomb with a food for thought.
Enjoyed reading. The goal of less suffering, hmmm.
I was vegetarian or vegan for the past 12 years until recently, now easing back into vegetarianism after having a brief flirtation with meat. I just feel so guilty, having “seen the light” (so to speak). In particular, pigs are such intelligent creatures. It legitimately makes me want to cry to think of the suffering they go through.
On an unrelated note, it’s so encouraging to see someone who is legitimately talented as a writer who has done so well here. I pretty much gave up on the idea that I’ll ever experience real financial success from this platform—well, more accurately, I’ve been almost sure of that from the beginning. I think of it as a place that keeps me writing and I don’t expect it to give me very much for it. Don’t get me wrong, there are super high powered users here who “deserve” what they have (though I have difficulty doling out that word and making such judgments), but the majority of them are that successful because they’re developers or witnesses or valued community members for the initiatives they’ve started, not writers, per se. It makes me think that maybe it’s possible if I keep working at it.
That was the attitude I went in with. Just stick at it. Steemit's still a young enough platform that it's not impossible for newcomers to get noticed, like on Youtube.
By the way... thank you for the super generous upvotes. I wish my literal 2 cents could make a real impact on your posts. I’m also trying to conserve this week so I can keep upvoting all the people who submit entries to my contest. Just letting you know that I would return the favor if I could.
Ain't no thing but a chicken wing. I'd like to see more writers make Steemit their home anyway. Just remember me when you blow up on here. :)
gg
I didn't say it's okay to eat fish because they will die anyway. What I said is that 100% of fish are eaten by some other creature. The argument is that they will be eaten either way, whether by humans or other predators.
Eat non-meat dishes with savory flavor to them. That's what you are really craving, not meat necessarily but the savory flavor of it.
I don't think it is possibly 100%. There's a high turnover rate in the ocean, but there are many, many fish and they do get diseases and so on.
I get what you're trying to figure out here, the moral way to go. But, I think that culture and society have a lot to do with what people eat. Eskimos eat mostly meat but that's what they have to work with. Being a vegetarian seems to be the more eco friendly way to go if you could swing it but I think people mostly work with what their cultural or societal norms are.
Haha what a shot thrown at the poor chickens
Why? Look at their diet. Lots of rice, fish, vegetables, tofu and so on
I totally agree Lots of vegetables and herb tea
Plant food contains (I think) 7 fewer amino acids than animal food. Those missing amino acids used in the generation of saliva, which is the first and the most important defense mechanism in the way to prevent infection. So Vegans need to get these amino acids as supplements generated chemically.
It is an unpleasant thought to kill anything, but it depends on the availability of food. There were many known cases when during the extensive famines people supplicated to eating animals regardless of the brain complexity considerations, even to cannibalism.
Thus, the more abandoned feed sources are produced on the planet, the further people will step away from the animal murder. However, if you go to Masai tribe that lives and dies by their cattle, it would be hard to convince them that killing the cow is bad. First, we have to provide for them an alternative source of food.
Arguments about tribal societies, third-world countries, poor areas, and so on, don't apply very well in first-world countries like the United States. The majority of Americans could easily handle major diet changes, if they had the will. You see this happen when people, wherever they live in the US, are advised by doctors to switch to eating less red meat, etc. From the perspective of environmental impact and general scope, tribal societies and extremely poor pockets of first-world countries are a tiny minority that aren't being thought of when people write articles advising more ethical diets. It's an interesting note, but they are exceptions to the rules that apply to most people who read such articles as this.
795 million people in the world do not have enough food. That's about one in nine people on earth. The vast majority of the world's hungry people live in developing countries, where 12.9 percent of the population is undernourished. Let's first feed them and then talk about diet.
I eat plant based mostly for my health. Meat and dairy never really agreed with me. Fish is great, if a friend or someone I know catches it. The ravishing of our resources is just plain irresponsible at this point. The world should be working together to salvage what little we have left. Instead we continue to honor money over this planet and it’s unsustainable. The cruelty animals experience whom humans deem food worthy is deplorable. However, everyone has a right to what they want to put in their bodies. I’m no judge here. Let food be thy medicine seems to be a good thought to live healthy by. Good post 👍
I have been veggie since 1988 and my personal rule is that if it has a face I won't eat it. I am not preachy though. I have cooked many a steak for friends. I think factory farming is the biggest enemy!
Reduce suffering. A very profound contemplation. Our earth will always be sustainable if it is filled with people like you @alexbeyman. But very ironic, most people do not want to bother to think up to that point. Most people (especially the rich) think of how food feels good when it passes through the throat, which lasts only a few seconds. Good article Alex...
It is one of them things that are put into our heads since we were kids. Don't touch fire, don't run on the street, eat chicken, eat vegetables, there is God. These things are kind of projected into our brains and some of the foods sound alien to us if you imagine eating a chimp or a dolphin. Years ago though when people would do whatever for survival I doubt anyone was making a difference between species when it comes to meat. I am not saying it is right to eat dolphins or other animals.. just a thought.
Humans never started to eat meat. Humans and their ancestors always ate meat; it was their primary source of nutrition. You probably wouldn’t ask “when did cats start to eat meat?” because it seems quite self evident that they have always eaten meat. Same with humans.
However, unlike cats, humans are omnivorous and can eat both meat and certain plants. However, plants have always been a secondary source of food for them.
Some people lived around places that got snowfall most of the year. And we all know there were no refrigerators so storing vegetarian food was out of the question. What they did was, they started to make their living by raising cattle and that was necessary.
Also meat is a preferred source of nutrition for humans is that it is nutrient dense, unlike vegetables. That means that by volume it contains more energy, macro-nutrients and micro-nutrients than any other food source. It’s really that simple. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t eat plant foods, and humans have always done so, simply because it’s easier to gather than it is to hunt.
Wow. For a moment, alex has talked about food.
I just wouldn't condemn anybody. While growing up, my mom was hypertensive and we learnt how to eat meals without spices. I've grown older and I find it more fun. My family eat food with spices and when we make dishes, we make dishes separately. Sometimes I join them in theirs and other times, they taste from mine.
We've grown to love and accept each other's choices.
As a biologist, just want to remind all people advocating for decrease of suffering and pain in animals, that most of the animal species humans use in their diet were domesticated/bred to provide food for humans, meaning that they owe their existence to the fact that we eat them :D
All species we eat nowadays would probably become extinct if we would stop eating them, think about that (just as another point of view/scientific fact).
Also, I would like to pose a question about similar topic - do dogs/cats suffer and feel pain (physical and/or mental) when you spay/neuter them, because they wanted to bear offspring, but you took that right from them? :)
To conclude, here's one quote from one great scientist:
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
Richard Dawkins
Ergh... As a human, you should know that it doesn't matter why they exist, but that they DO exist, and suffer, because of us. Their very existence is a curse, and it's thanks to us. I'm sure many would prefer to go extinct if the only two choices were that or existing under current conditions.
Interesting point of view.
In your opinion, does that philosophy apply to humans as well?
Because it's a fact that people suffer, very much, all over the world, for various reasons - actually I don't think a human being who never suffered exists or existed ever.
So in your opinion, how many people in the world would choose death over present way of life? Because I don't see people performing mass suicides, even those who are starving to death on daily basis, although they know that they're faced with certain soon-to-come death.
Somehow, all living beings (including us humans) opt for life, no matter how miserable and painful it is - another scientific / empirical fact.
Back to animals - imagine all of the sudden, humans stop eating animals (hypothetical scenario).
All those animals kept so far for human use, are released all of the sudden and are on their own.
Without humans look after them, they would soon became ill, become a prey or starve to death.
So, for the salvation of future unborn generations of animals, you understand that hundreds of millions of already existing animals would need to be sacrificed, in a very brutal way IMO.
All that burden on vegan souls, ccc :)
The point is, we are responsible for the breeding, enslavement and immense suffering of billions of animals every year. We do not need to eat meat - we just like it (a lot). And companies like the profit it brings. As long as big money is involved, and the animals are the product, then they'll be treated as mere products, and whatever will increase profits will be done to them, no matter how cruel it is.
These animals don't have a voice. They can't cry out and protest. So we have to do it for them.
I don't agree that they'll go extinct altogether... Though of course their numbers will certainly decrease. I don't see anything wrong with eating an animal if it dies naturally, having lived a reasonably happy, healthy life, and so I think even if society progresses to a point where we ban factory farming, there will still be a market for farm-raised animals. I agree that without some human care, at least initially, many of the farm animals we have might go extinct. But your argument that they owe their existence to us and so it's okay to continue with the systematic cruelty is just morally twisted.
To me, it's all a matter of the degree of suffering we are causing. I agree with the OP in that, I have less of a problem eating fish than chicken, and less of a problem eating chicken than beef/pork/mutton.
I will always choose to be the voice for those who don't have one.
Since you avoided answering most of my questions, and addressed only points that were convenient/not disturbing too much for your highly developed conscience, I will do the same with your points (not because I can't/don't have arguments good enough, but because it's pointless), and will comment just your concluding remark:
Hi @scienceangel ... First, please accept my apology. It seems I did exactly what the OP warned against doing... Writing with a self-righteous tone and thus alienating you. Sometimes it is difficult to stay level-headed when discussing this topic. I'll now try answer anything I missed before.
I agree with you that no matter what, life will choose to survive rather than go extinct. Human individual life, in extreme cases, might choose suicide instead of continued suffering, but in general, and especially with animal life, usually survival trumps all if it can help it. So I was wrong on that point.
In your hypothetical scenario, where everyone suddenly stops eating meat, you say that then the animals would suddenly be let go to roam free and all probably die. I don't think it would happen that way. It would happen gradually, with the breeding/killing system slowly phased out in favour of better options (in-vitro meat is a thing and as soon as it gets cheaper, will probably be adopted by big companies). The animals, as I said, will still be in demand as pets and some people will always prefer "natural" meat, but I see it becoming a novelty, and much more expensive. Farming might continue in this way, on a smaller scale, and the animals will probably live much better quality lives. So it's not likely that they'll go extinct.
If they do go extinct however, despite our best efforts to prevent it, I feel that morally, this would be better than us consciously causing the suffering of billions of animals every year.
I believe I've addressed the salient points in your response? Please let me know if I've missed something.
And again, sorry for the typical vegetarian self-righteous response before... Not sure if it deserved that mocking laughter GIF though ;P
So as any other company?
By the definition of a good product, you treat the "materials" within the certain standards - that is actually good
Using your own logic: old animals don't have the voice to ask for euthanasia, so we need to do it for them
Define how you measure the suffering. In many species, there is the alpha male, all the others are fighting, loosing and getting frustrated for not reproducing. That's the suffering.
Imagine the fear when the pack of wolves is chasing the pray, your own "baby" gets isolated, waiting to be eaten. Partially alive. Is that cruel?
Wait... Animals will live in a flat/ yard, incredibly small habitat. Without the members of the own species. Without the joy of hunting. Or the adrenaline rush while being the prey. That's the suffering.
And keep in mind one thing, the production of plants involves a lot of dead animals. It's inevitable.
Another point... Lots of farm animals make great pets - another thing that will keep them from going extinct.
Personally I'm a foodie. I eat nearly all kind of meals. But then I eat healthily and I don't miss exercises.
I'm middle size (not overweight and not underweight either).
And I encourage people, look for what's healthy and what your body accepts. Don't be coerced on anything especially what goes into your body (food).
So vegan, vegetarian or whatever choices, stick to what works healthily for you
This guy deserves a medal!
Intelligence and ignorance, awareness and disguise. Those components that ultimately select your food. Some citizens in a part of the world, there is a very cruel in terms of food selection. I also often can not bear to see roasted rabbit and roast pork. But apparently, the cruelty was not just there. I once read in the official newspaper that there is a cafe that sells baby soup for male stamina enhancer. Yes, really baby. I can not say anything more. Therefore, choosing food by conscience to reduce suffering, I think it is a brilliant idea.
eat nutritious foods. that's it from me personally.
interesting
This is a very touchy subject. I really won't say I am for either. I have restricted my diet though to just fish and meat. i personally don't bother asking what it is so i don't offend my conscience. It may look off but that is just me!
Fish and meat? But fish is a kind of meat.
That is a genuinely interesting as well as complex question. I would say that our teeth consist of 2 parts. Almost half of them are herbivorous and other half is carnivorous, it means that our basic physiology is made/developed (depending upon what you believe) is for eating both kinds of foods. Same way, our stomach is capable of digesting both. If it was otherwise, we could debate about a selection. Anything against nature would have consequences.
Now comes the next important question: Which food to eat?
This is the harsh part of the question. Yes, plants have been reported to have 3/5 senses (5 referring to animals/humans) and they do have conscious (for the current definition of it). I chose to eat vegetables and those meat/animals which:
So, i have no specific answer about it but, choice.
Alex - Vegan life gives freedom... Why we eat foods which made by tears & blood from another...
+W+
do we have to eat the poor animals.one of my brother has said that hod has gave us lot of various type of vegetable .we can live our life but eating them .we dont have to kill the animals to eat.if there will not be anythinh veg left then we can kill the animals to survive.so love the animals they have life too.PEACE