Another 10 people shot dead by a 17 year old student at a Texas school. When will the United States actually stand up and do something about this. I know this is a contentious issue in the US and here in Australia, but the simple fact is the ease with which you can get a gun, particularly on the East Coast of the USA, is unbelievable.
For an Australian visiting the US, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the multitude of high powered weapons for sale at gun stores and places that retail guns. These weapons cannot be justified for use for any reason other than killing people. Here in Australia, rifles and other single shot weapons are allowed, but are highly restricted. The sale of weapons is highly regulated, even if selling to your neighbour (which is not allowed). You have to have a gun sale licence to sell a weapon and you must possess a gun licence to own a gun. All guns and ammunition must be housed in a gun safe so they cannot be accessed by children and if any rules are breached, then you loose the weapons and your licence. Obtaining a gun licence in Australia is quite a lengthy process.
In the USA, obtaining a gun from a registered seller requires a background check that takes but a few minutes. If you buy a gun from a private seller then no background check is required. The second amendment was initiated back when the revolution occurred to ensure that the English couldn't overrun the nation again, but wasn't that over 300 years ago???
Why would the government still believe that allowing regular citizens to obtain high powered, military style guns be appropriate? Obviously these fall into the wrong hands and then kids get their hands on them and the death tally from mass shootings continues to spiral. The Executive Office obviously cannot change the laws and the lawmakers in the USA are too hamstrung by the NRA so I guess the killing will occur until the youth of today come of voting age and say enough is enough.
Now I know there is more to this and I am an outsider looking in, however, stricter gun laws in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre has resulted in fewer deaths by guns so the proof is in the pudding, so to say......
Anyway, rant over. I would be interested to hear what US citizens think of this?
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What is the one common denominator all of these Killers ( not just shooters) have in USA school system? ( you can go back into the 1970s) ( not including an almost 100% Dr. prescribed psycho med condition, either on or coming off of psychotropic PRESCRIBED Drugs)
The ONE denominator?
https://steemit.com/gun/@monetaryrealist/36-school-shooters-school-related-violence-committed-by-those-under-the-influence-of-psychiatric-drugs
Bingo, but the drug companies control the media and politicians and they have gobs of money so there will never ever be a "national conversation" or calls to "dooo something" about the products that say right on the label that they cause suicidal actions.
Guns are actually an important part of combating crime. Most gun owners are law abiding citizen that own a firearm for protection.
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#26
How's gun control working for the UK?
London's murder rate now tops New York City's
excellent points
I think the US and UK are completely different stories. Knife-related crime is obviously pretty bad there but if they all had guns more freely available, would they not be the choice for crimes? Is it not crime that needs to be addressed rather than the choice of weapon?
More guns there would obviously mean higher rates of death from guns in my opinion.
So if your statement was true. "More guns equal more crime" We should see a correlation between the number of murders and the amount of guns in a country.
This chart sure doesn't look that way. If fact it looks like the opposite, the countries with the most guns have lower murder rates.
The people of Brazil are figuring this out too that the government lied to them and said gun control would keep them safe.
People Are Ready to Buy Some Guns in the World’s Murder Capital
I think that socio-economic factors are not being taken into account here. The poverty that exists in Brazil far outweighs that of the highly Industrialised countries, including the USA. People have their phones snatched out of their hands in Brazil as they are highly expensive and sought after items in Brazil. These items are much cheaper in the USA. Crime rates are notoriously higher in countries that are much poorer, as you can see from your graphic of murder rates.
Funny how some people compare places like Helsinki to places like Detroit and conclude gun laws explain the different rates of homicide there.
There are different factors occurring rather than just guns. I know it is a contentious issue. I am just putting my view out there that I am glad I live in a country where guns are not part of our culture and we don’t feel the need to be armed to feel safe. I don’t have to worry that the person walking down the road towards me might be crazy and armed and going to shoot me.
Hard to know the feeling if you’ve never lived in a country like ours.
That's weird, I have never worried about that. Not once. Is that what you really think it is like here? Was that how you felt before the NFA? If your countrymen were allowed guns is that how you would feel?
You're right that other factors can play a major role in a country's murder rate but all you hear from the MSM is that we need tougher gun laws to prevent these mass murders when they are a fraction of the overall murders. We'd save far more lives by getting people out of poverty vs taking people's guns away.
Are you trying to say that if your were a mugger, or a rapist, you'd choose victims armed with firearms over those that were unarmed?
Just how silly is that?
No, if you read it correctly, I am saying that a mugger or rapist would choose a gun over a knife to commit crimes!
Would they be as apt to try to rob or rape someone who was armed or potentially armed?
First, in most places, they do choose guns, as guns are better weapons, and thus more useful when committing harms. There's an old saying 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.' It's true.
Second, while guns are less available than before the disarming of the English, they are still used to commit crimes there by criminals that are competent enough to get them, unlike the street scum who can only manage knives. There are also crimes committed in the US with knives, so even where guns totally saturate the market, there are criminals of such low intelligence that they cannot manage getting guns.
Third, soon enough, as 3D printing more deeply penetrates the market, it will be unnecessary to buy guns. People have already printed them, and the means of doing so are freely available.
Fourth, criminals don't obey laws. Laws against having guns, for example. Laws against guns only prevent people that obey laws from having guns, and people that obey laws don't commit crimes. They are the victims of crimes however, and in the UK, they are defenseless victims.
Lastly, you are recommending people bring nothing, not even knives, to the gunfights they face on the crime ridden streets of neoliberal police states. That is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. Good luck with that!
But in practice what we see is the exact opposite, the more guns owned by Americans the lower our rate of gun homicide. Of course this is just a correlation, no one is saying more guns is causing the decline in gun homicide but what we can say with certainty is that more guns, and allowing more Americans to carry them in more places, has not caused higher death rates from gun homicide. So your opinion does not jive with what we see happening in the numbers. Do you own any guns or does most of your experience with them come from television and movies?
I grew up around guns and used them to go hunting on the farm. We only ever hat single shot rifles or shotguns. If you can’t hit a wallaby with a rifle in one shot then you need to give up hunting. The need for a fully automatic high powered assault rifle seems pretty extreme for hunting or to defend yourself. These seem to be the weapon of choice for people committing these mass shootings worldwide.
Fully automatic weapons require a federal tax stamp and cost about $30,000 and have to have been made before 1984, can you tell me the last time someone used a legally registered machine gun in a crime in America?
This kid used a stolen shotgun and .38 revolver.
ay i love Australians here ;D
I'm american and I say everyone is welcome to comment on this issue... if someone can't stand criticism they should get off the internet.
I've talked about this problem so many times its exhausting. It might never go away, because we have reached a level where people worship these things, its not a hobby its a fetish.
This is a joke and its only hilarious because its true.
That's an interesting theory, if people didn't fetishize guns what would the solution to "this problem" be?
the problem would not exist in my opinion. We didn't have this problem in the 50's in the 60's gun owner just had guns.. there was not this "omg the evil government wants to take muh guns... i need more" fear...
Gosh... grandpa was shooting when he was a little boy... this became like the prohibition times with alcohol, that gave rise to the mob... in this case, there is no mob, there is no prohibition, just the fear of it, and as a result it became a chicken and egg thing.
Can you tell me which "the problem" we are talking about specifically?
In the 50s and 60s there were not really any federal gun control efforts, there were very few federal gun laws until the late 60's after those assassinations. Back then people didn't blame inanimate objects for crime. There was no Brady group or billionaire media moguls trying to push gun restrictions nationally. Anti gun people occasionally cry about how in the 70s the NRA became more politically active, they did that as a reaction to anti gun efforts.
How well did alcohol prohibition work?
Of course things have changed, now there are constant and consistent efforts to restrict gun rights. Bloomberg spends $50 million a year to oppose gun rights. The Democrats are trying to gin up support for an anti gun platform for 2018 midterms. That's why their media is hitting the gun thing so hard.
I am not sure who the mob is in your analogy.
I live in a state where the AG banned the most popular guns by fiat and declared all their owners to be felons, but no one is trying to take my guns right?
You are making my point for me... we are in a chicken and egg logical beat down...
I'm saying before all the culture of "OMG THEY ARE TAKING MY GUNS" (pardon my exaggeration, im trying to clarify. People just owned guns, one, two... with the few that would have a lot more than the average.
In today's culture... the US vs THEM we have sides arguing for the extremes. We have a side who is literally fighting to have their constitutional rights taken from them, which is ridiculous and we have a side that is stock piling AR-15s and Pastors making videos about how the bible tells them that its OK to use his 45 caliber seeds of Freedom on a bastard if he tries anything on him, while he drives his kids to school with loaded guns in the car and screaming Hallelujah.
Look up Josh Fuerstein, the pastor and my point will become clear.
What happened to balance? What happened to nuance? Why can't we de-escalate this debate that is just making us, the citizens fight ourselves?
for sure, the gun law issue is a manufactured political wedge issue, exactly like abortion, designed to divide people along political lines. Abortion was not really a debate until the 70s either. Back in the day in America, here in MA, the law required a man to carry a gun to church.
We can't have balance, nuance or common sense because the Democrats and their media are trying to win the 2018 midterms based on ginning up support for gun control. It is sad. I would love to get rid of the racist gun laws in my state, like most states have, and never have to debate gun control again because there were no proposals to restrict guns.
We can always tell which side of these issues is wrong, it is the side that wants to ban something.
Oh listen... Democrats, Republicans to me they are both polished turds that stand for nothing, but shine none the less.
Our government is nothing but a facade for corporate interests, and the corporations that run this country tell our governing agencies what to do, what not to do and how to pretend we the people are in control.
The over reach of this government is not a new thing, its been creeping up for decades... this whole, let us protect you from the things that you will do to yourself if we don't protect you.. is as logical as baby proofing a jungle.
But the trick Bobby... at least in my opinion is that we, I don't necessarily mean you and I, but for the sake of argument, lets put us as examples. We ought to be astute to have these conversations with those who are still believing in the Red vs Blue Fabricated Dichotomy. So that they, can look at facts and think for themselves and not fall into tribalisms that belong to times long, long gone.
Its we the people, not donkeys vs elephants, red vs blue... that is all bullcrappings..
I'll give you a philosophical Karate Chop Style Question of the Ninja level Degree...
Can one side be wrong, for the right reasons... or at least with the right intention?
Hence the conundrum... I try to have these conversations with people on the fringes, I get attacked because they think I oppose them, I don't... I'm an advocate for balance.
Aw love the goat footers!! I'm Australian too so can't comment on the gun debate except to say ditto.
So let me get this right, you think if Australia loosened its gun laws that Australians would suddenly start shooting each other?
I'm not an American, but this is depressing. What happened once, especially a violence like this, should never happen again. But this happened many times already!
I guess this is what Childish Gambino means in his song - that This is America, right now.
Indeed, but these shootings are caused by psychiatric drugs but the media does not want to talk about that do they?
Yes, they don't. Is the gov't even doing anything about this? This is out of control.
the politicians who run the government and the media that controls public opinion are both very attached to their share of the trillion dollars a year the drug companies bring in. It is not a small share. Especially compared to a tiddlywink industry like firearms. They don't advertise their products on the evening news. The government does require them to put a label on their products that says "may cause suicidal thoughts or actions", guns of course don't have such a label because they are not known to actually cause those things.
This is really, really bad and depressing, @funbobby51. 😥 When will they learn? I hope when they do, it's not yet too late to change the country for the better.
All this that you hear about guns is only because the Democrats have nothing to run on in November, the American people in general don't want more gun control but instead of changing their platform they want to use their media to change the American public so that they want their platform. We can tell its bullshit by putting it in perspective. Varicose veins and related conditions kill about 60,000 Americans annually, that's about 6 times as many as gun homicides. It's as many as all gun homicides, suicides and accidents plus all car accidents. Yet do a search on someplace like NPR, if you put in" guns" or "firearms" you will find they have literally thousands of articles about the, put in varicose veins and you will find they have zero articles about them.
I see. Now that's BS.
American here and I 100% agree. The access to guns here sickens me as does people’s attitudes towards them. In some creepy way guns almost get sexualized here. It is gross. People who are into the weapons also seem to think it provides them some sort of protection. But do you really need an assault rifle? I understand having a gun to hunt. Or going to a range to hit a target but I definitely think sales should be monitored and licensed and limited.
Do you think you should be able to have a gun to defend yourself?
From ANYONE that is about to unlawfully attempt to harm you or your property or family?
No. Having a gun even for defense makes it more likely I am going to get shot.
Only in the strictest sense of now that you have a gun you might use it on yourself vs not having a gun so you couldn't use it on yourself.
Legal Defensive Gun Uses happen 2 million to 3 million times per year vs somewhere around 20,000 people unlawfully killed by guns.
On average a typical American home will be broken into or attempted to be broken into within your lifetime of being in that house.
Closer to 10,000 gun homicides.
Or a kid gets it, or a robber steals it from my house and uses it in another crime, or someone accidentally shoots themselves....
ok. show me the stats you looked up on that.
Your stats of that vs my stats of 2 to 3 million legal defensive gun uses per year.
Which saves more live. Please link me the stats when you find it.
If I am in an locked room with one other person and neither of us has a gun, no one will be shot by a gun. If I am in a room with one other person and there is a gun the likely hood of me being shot increases. No gun it is impossible for me to be shot. I will not be contributing to the proliferation of weapons in this country.
The legalities around gun usage differ across the world dramatically. In Australia, if you use a gun to kill an unarmed intruder into your household, you would be charged with murder or manslaughter.
It is all about the culture that is developed in a country. Australia relishes from strict gun laws as we have never had a gun culture in this country. We don't miss our guns, or feel that unsafe in our houses that we feel the need to be armed in our own homes.
Feel free not to have one. Other people will see that there are fewer than 500 fatal accidents annually and accept that risk and make sure they are careful.
only if your suicidal in which case, after you kill yourself they will categorize you differently if you do not use a gun.. Removing suicide from the equation a lawful normal person is FAR less likely to be shot if folks know that attempting to shot you could get them shot.
I think it should be easy enough to prove.. Put a sign in your yard or on your property letting folks know you have no way to defend yourself from armed invaders and see how it works out.
No homes in Australia have guns. Any armed invader could enter any household in Australia and they would not be greeted by a gun. We have very few incidences of house invasions in Australia that result in death as neither the intruder or occupant has a gun.
There are very few armed robberies with a gun that occur either across our country. I think this argument is flawed if you are not talking about the USA.
False. You had a mass shooting a week or two ago.
False, people who have guns for defense are more likely to be shot because such people get guns because they have an elevated chance of getting shot. Obviously as a group of people who feel they are in danger of being shot are more likely to be shot than those who don't think they will be shot.
You should investigate your claim, you might find that your are misstating a claim from a discredited 1994 study.
Millions of Americans use legal guns for self defense annually. Do you think law abiding people or criminals are committing most of the gun crimes?
Remember that Texas church shooting a few months ago, what sort of gun did the good Samaritan use to put a stop to it?
Which of our other basic rights should be monitored and licensed and limited?
Definitely disheartening event for all human to be heard. I guess something with massive interest conflict has something to do with this.
Indeed, these gun free zone signs create areas where people are not able to rightfully defend themselves or others.
The second amendment was initiated back when the revolution occurred to ensure that the English couldn't overrun the nation again, but wasn't that over 300 years ago???
Almost, yup it's been working great for hundreds of years, better not mess with success.
There was a mass shooting in Australia a week or two ago. Studies show your draconian restrictions had no measurable positive effect.
Nope, in fact during the same period after your ban America's homicide rate dropped more sharply than Australia's.
Why does the average Australian say they feel safer without a high prevalence of Guns in the community? We are different countries with different cultures. I’lol leave it at that. It’s hard to determine what is happening in another country, however, from an outsiders view, there seems to be a lot of shootings happening in schools and there appears to be nothing done about it.
Thanks for the responses and debate. Great this post has generated so much interest and conversation.
There is not a gun law that would solve the problem of people becoming homicidal after taking certain psychiatric drugs. To Americans it seems like you have reverted to being a penal colony.
Why would you think that? A penal colony is one which is built by convicts and incarcerated people is it not? Just because our gun laws and views differ to those in the USA doesn’t mean we are draconian.
I am pretty sure I can access a lot more in the cryptocurrency world ‘legally’ here in good old Aussie land than is available in the USA.
Thanks for your debate and banter.... It’s been refreshing.
You seem very nice but your gun laws are draconian, I don't know much about crypto but I am also not aware of any restrictions we have that you don't.
Glad I could be of service ;)