Thank you for answering. I want to relate to what you've said.
peer pressure, judgement, and discrimination from family, friends, and colleagues.
I asked you about personal experiences, where you suffered the loss of your job, exclusion of your family (or your social circle of friends), as a single causal effect of not having or wanting children. I rate your answer as a "no".
You provide me with some nasty stories from peoples lives, or things you find unfair but that was not what I was pointing at. As we know, conflicts, pressure and disagreements occur within relationships and all kinds of weird actions are done.
It may bother those a lot, who stand to their decision not having/wanting children but does it make you or them an outcast or being punished in that way that live is not possible for you/them? If someone gets fired from his/her job, it's not because someone is childless. No cases known to me where this was so, more likely people get in trouble for having a child.
It may inconvenient to argue but that's the case for a million other things where people disagree. Which I welcome as something valuable. It's good that there are people WITH and WITHOUT children. Conflicts between those groups can teach me something in trying to overcome them. I do not judge people not having children, it's none of my business.
I pointed towards the trend which clearly is in favor of less children. Just look at the statistics, how many children the people usually had on average two hundred or a hundred years ago, compared to now. Can you agree that you see a clear decrease in numbers?
It's like you're standing up in your answer for a cause that has long since arrived. People in modern societies are predominantly childless or have few children.
There are currently about 41.5 million private households in this country. Those living alone are reported to be the most common form, ahead of two-person households (13.8 million). ... Nationwide, the share of single-person households increased from 34 per cent to 42 per cent between 1991 and 2019.
There are currently 10.65 million children between the ages of 0 and 14 living in Germany (as of 2019). ... In a nationwide comparison, the state of Bremen achieved the highest value with an average of 1.6 children per woman. Berlin brought up the rear with an average of 1.41 children per woman.
We are a country with about 80 million inhabitants.
Children make up a total share of the population of less than ten percent. That speaks a clear language.
From an average of almost five children per woman until the turn of the century into the 1900s, the rate is steadily going down.
The trend speaks a language; people willingly and without being forced by law decide for less children. In which relation does it set the cases you mentioned here? If I would take up the effort and now compare the official cases of discrimination because of having children versus not having children court-wise, what would come out of it?
An important aspect in the rumour about humanity in and of itself, you seem to be on the safe side, don't you? Where there are warnings of global overpopulation (quite dominant, I would think), there is also a mega-trend against having children.
I agree, if at any point you are annoyed by some extreme people meddling in your affairs, I would wholeheartedly agree to show people who meddle in such private decisions their limits. It doesn't necessarily have to end in a fight or a split. It takes two to make a reasonable dialogue. Family members, friends or colleagues usually come to terms with whether or not someone has children, is, what I experience/d.
The problem is that you're looking at this whole thing from the perspective of someone living in a country that can benefit from more babies and that stands to lose a lot if less babies are born. Perhaps you yourself have been wanting to participate in reproduction and have been unable to...if this is the case I'm sorry, I don't meant to bother an open wound.
I am a fan of VHETM though I have never really met any of the people in that "club" and I want to tell you why.
When I was struggling with the decision, my own personal decision, to reproduce. I came across their website and the whole extinction part really turned me off. I love humanity, I want to see it prosper and grow. I actually stuck around the website to see who the hell was promoting extinction because I wanted to have some words with them...
But then I came across this "why breed?" chart and my life changed. Every single reason stated for wanting to have children I have considered, and every single conclusion they reached as to my reasoning and what I needed to get over that misguided desire was right there on the same chart.
After seeing that, I can't in good concious have children of my own. Why? I wouldn't have children for anything other than ego, why does the child have to be associated to my biology? That's ego! At least for me...and I will not bring a life into this world over my own insecurities as an individual and much less for external pressure.
I think they should dial down the whole extinction part, but then again maybe they use those words in particular to get people PISSED OFF, just like they've got you upset. Maybe your anger won't let you see what they're telling you in reality, but if you're really concerned with your reproductive responsibility then you will read what they're actually sharing with an open heart. Some of it you might agree with, other things you won't agree with. This isn't some religion where it's forbidden to doubt some god...
I am not afraid to bring a child into this world to suffer. Pain is part of life, there is no way of identifying joy without some pain, eternal bliss is not a thing. I might eventually have a child or adopt, children are a blessing and they teach us a lot of things. But I will not have a child to look after my own personal fulfillment or because I think my offspring can do better than other people's.
You may be thinking "why should I care that your life was changed by realizing your own personal reasons for wanting to have kids were selfish?" but in reality you should be thrilled.
I am one less parent raising a human for the hell of going with the motions, one less parent raising an UNWANTED baby. Because I don't want babies, I just wanted to feel loved and useful. And if I have a baby and I don't get the satisfaction I thought I'd get out of it, what do you think will happen? I will be stuck caring for human beings, I will feel stuck, and my babies will notice that I'm not 100% with them. I can't do that to another human, much less a child of mine.
This is the first time in the history of humanity when we actually have a choice to reproduce, I believe each person should think real hard about that choice. I'm not saying don't have kids, but maybe have 2 instead of 5 because you think that's normal since your father had 20.
I have 2 sisters I have not met because my father had children for society, over peer pressure, because it happens even if it didn't happen to you in Germany. My father decided not to speak to me again because the hard work he had put in to please society he thought would be undone by the perception society could have of me...thus his performance as a parent. I have two sisters that I don't know because of how someone thinks society will react, haven't spoken to my father in over a decade, and here you are telling us all how peer pressure is no biggie.
I agree with you partly. So the assumed illusory desires of having children do not come true, you will feel stuck and realise that you were wrong to think that parenthood would be a walk in the park.
However, don't you throw the baby out with the bathwater before it is even born?
The realisation that parenthood is exhausting, challenging, frustrating and difficult can be titled "growing up". You are showing me a paradox right now. Knowing that it might be difficult for you, you have gone one step beyond yourself. Is it not the case, that you've realised something important? But you've given yourself a poor testimony in presuming a future in which this realisation makes you incapable of parenthood, in my view.
I would ask you if you are not willing to sacrifice too much?
I am capable, I know I can do a semi-decent job, a better job than most, because I care about kids and people in general.
I'm just not willing to take on a child until I know I can help them. The decision has less to do with me and whatever desires that might take less of a priority if a child is made priority, than what it has to do with me having the time to provide beyond the material. Anyone can give a child the food they need to grow taller, you might even have time to teach them how to read, add and subtract...but am I going to have the time to see to them and their real needs? I can provide the food to help them grow taller, can I provide the food to help them grow up? Until I know that is the case, why would I risk harming the innocent?
The responsibility of parents is the greatest one there is, the decision to be a parent cannot be taken lightly. I love children, so I'm helping the world in the only way I know how so children can live happily and free, even if none of them look like me. 🙂
It may seem to be out of context, but do you know Alan Watts? I found his recordings years ago and listened countless times to his speeches. Now I was gifted some books from him. When I feel dark and lonely the reading gives me a more light attitude towards those emotions. If you like, I post you the titles.
I've seen the name in passing quotes, not very familiar. Sure! A little extra inspiration can't hurt, I'm open to pretty much anything. I might be coming off a little negative in perspective but I don't mean to be, part of my job, a habit, to examine the worst case scenario/perspective too.
Thank you for trying to encourage me though. In this context you thought I might have a confidence issue, little regard for myself, and it seems like you were trying to look after my self-esteem if I'm assuming correctly. I appreciate it, this is the kind of approach people should take as opposed to resorting to peer pressure, emotional coertion. You cared for the real reason I'm not having kids for the moment, you cared to find the problem even if only to try to solve it.
There is no problem, I know I'm not inherently harmful to kids and I know that I probably should reconsider parenthood at some point. I'm just being careful. 🙂
Thank you, I find your answer gives some peace of mind.
That's all I really am aiming for myself and if it also happens, to whom I personally talk, I shall be fine. That's you and me right now.
I appreciate your engagement with me.
I think I understand you now a bit better than in the beginning of our conversation :-)
It is not that I am thinking of other people in absolute terms. You might have a confidence issue, I would not judge you if you had. If have many of my own :) What interests me more to find examples where they did not play a major role but other things were of better support. The opposite of coercion. Yes.