The Pareto Principle, specifies that 80% of consequences come from 20% of the causes, asserting an unequal relationship between inputs and outputs. source
Most people have heard of the Pareto Principle or perhaps stated as the 80/20 Rule, where there is an asymmetry between effort and result. For example, 80% of sales come from 20% of clients, 80% of sales come from 20% of sales people and, 80% of complaints, come from 20% of the customers.
This rule came to mind recently in regards to how I spend my time on Hive and how I should reevaluate where I direct my energy, especially since I don't have that much to give. Over the last years, I have put a lot of time and effort into interacting with people and I have probably spent 80% of my time with 20% of those I commonly engage with. However, that 20% are also often the ones where the 80% of the complaints are.
As is perhaps human nature, we tend to spend a lot of our time engaging with people who disagree with us, because that is where more conversation lays, since we can say "I agree" with the people who get what we are talking about. However, I am going to reevaluate this at least partially, since at some point, I have to cut my losses.
You see, some people, no matter how much they claim to want help at times or how much evidence is provided contrary to their understanding, will just never make the shift, never change. That is okay, that is their decision or experience in life - but why should I spend any more of my time helping someone who will not change.
For example, if one of your friends was a drug addict, how long would you put your time energy and resources into helping them? What is the boundary of your support? You might say "there is no boundary" but, that is nonsense, because resources are limited and for example, if helping the friend would take away from being able to provide for your own family, the decision is quite simple. What makes it simpler is if time and time again when you have tried to help, the person makes it abundantly clear that they aren't going to change.
What is the return to keep trying?
Resources are scarce, especially when it comes to personal time and energy, and there is an opportunity cost to every activity. Helping someone that isn't going to change, takes away from helping those who might. Don't get me wrong, people don't have to change and each can do what they want, but doing what you want comes with consequences. There are outcomes to what we do and when what we are doing is not conducive to getting to where we might want to be, the cost of doing what we want it going to be having what we want.
For me, I get really tired of having the same conversations with a very small percentage of people over and over for years on end with no change in their world view. Not only that, some of them are gleefully stubborn, which just takes the support I have given and throws it back in my ace. That is fine, but there is no point for me to continue down that pathway, so I can disengage and leave them to their own devices, while I get on with my own life and interacting with people who are looking to improve their position in this life in some way.
In my opinion, the only thing we can consistently do for the entirety of our lives is change, and if we want to be able to have some influence over how we change, we need to learn. It is interesting that so many of the people who are seemingly and often openly struggling, are also the ones who are unwilling to learn a different way in an attempt to get a different outcome. However, they are often the ones who are willing to talk a lot and complain a lot about what other people are doing. Funny, eh?
I guess they are addicted to their thoughts and ways, and just like any addict, they can only be helped when they are ready to change. Saying they want a different outcome doesn't mean they are actually willing to do what is necessary to get one, so continuing to spend resources on them is essentially enabling them to remain the same, while taking away from others.
Why would I spend ten, twenty or thirty minutes of my day responding to people who have proven they are addicts, time and time again? I can do all of the other parts of my day, engage with the people who are genuinely looking to improve their lives and, spend that saved time doing something that benefits me or my family more. I can use that time that I have spent and essentially thrown down the drain, on improving the 80%, rather than the 20% who are not going to likely improve anyway.
What is interesting is when I have done this in the past, those people then complain that I am not supporting people, because I am not supporting them. This is disingenuous, which is par for the course really, but as I have said, process breeds result, and when people are consistently acting to self-sabotage their own goals, me pulling away is an outcome of their behavior. I am not obligated in any way to put up with any kind of behavior and while I am generally patient and give people the benefit of the doubt, eventually I will choose to move on when they have shown that they are unwilling to invest themselves.
This has nothing to do with them doing what I want them to do or advise, but if they aren't where they want to be yet are continually doing the same thing over the space of years - time to cut them loose and spend no more of the resources that I value on them. Time and energy are two of the most limited resources, yet some people believe that it is best spent on them, despite the track record of outcomes that it is likely not. Often we end up spending a lot f our valuable resources on people who don't necessarily add value back.
For example, when I was around 18, I was in hospital five or six times with pancreatitis caused by medication for a different chronic illness. I weighed 47 kilos and I had to be without food and water for five days while the inflammation subsided, other than a saline drip. In the bed next to me, there was a man in his 40s with pancreatitis too, but I noticed he had a different drip and asked the nurse about it. It wasn't saline, it was a nutrient rich mix that would keep his weight up and help him recover faster. When I asked why I didn't have the same, she said that it was because it was more expensive and because this guy was an alcoholic, he wasn't feeding himself properly so they were doing what they could while he was there. Pancreatitis is caused by excessive drinking in about 25% of cases and, even while he was in hospital he was going outside to drink and smoke - Smoking is another correlated cause.
My point is, there is a kid laying in a bed with a future in front of him with a condition caused through no fault of his own, but the resources go to the person who has made choices and continues to make choices that will lead him back there time and time again, until death. Each time, he will get additional resources, while people who would benefit more and are likely to return the benefit in kind later, go without.
I haven't thought about that twenty five year old story in a long time, but I should recall it more often. Similar has happened many times over the years in many different ways too, but we tend to be driven as a society and individual to help those that struggle the most, which is great, but we aren't taught to discern between who will use the opportunity for bettering their lives, or who will waste it. If resources are completely unlimited, that doesn't matter much, but when there is scarcity, whether real or engineered, it should be considered, otherwise we can end up helping all and nobody at the same time.
Some people might see this view as uncharitable in some way, but that is not the case. What is uncharitable is when people expect resources to be spent on them when they already know that they aren't going to use them well, since they know they aren't going to change. If we aren't willing to take responsibility for our own improvement, why should anyone invest their limited resources in us?
I don't know if I explained this well, nor what the percentages are, but with limited time and energy, as well as a host of other scarce resources, I am going to be more discerning with where I spend them.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
Great article @tarazkp,
As someone who is in long recovery from alcohol and cocaine, my stance is this:
I'm more than willing to help someone who wants to get clean, but I am also perceptive to knowing when a person really wants it for themselves and are willing to put in the necessary work without criticizing the advice of someone who's found sobriety.
I've had to walk away from more than a few people who were dragging me down. On the same token I stood by the sides of men who were truly trying, and ended up dying from their addiction, but because they gave it 100% effort in a humble manner, I would not turn my back on them.
Addiction comes in many different forms of course. The addict in me might be addicted to other (less harmful) things now. It's a matter of perspective. Consumerism based society depends on addiction. A man like you comprehends this no doubt.
It's within our nature and human responsibility to one another to make sacrifices in charitable ways, we just need to maintain a level of perceptiveness with how much of our life is affected in negative ways when we try to help, measure accordingly and do our best.
Have a nice day :)
Great to hear you are in recovery :)
This I completely understand.
We are all addicted to something. Some are substances, some are materials, some ideas, some the past, some in the desire for heaven or enlightenment. But, all will cause suffering of some kind, so e have to try and find a way to channel our addictions into more meaningful pursuit perhaps.
Our lives and the lives of others. I had a father who helped a lot of people, often to the detriment of his family. It was part of his addiction profile and is selfish in its own way.
Thanks for adding your thoughts here on this and sharing what is quite personal.
Have a great week!
Thank you kindly for the response.
Yeah I get what you mean about channeling our addictions into something meaningful. This is what I'm trying to do with my new 3D printing addiction :D
This is quite an insight. I have a friend who is addicted to helping/saving others, and very pushy about it with her opinions, to the point where I have to limit my interactions because this obsession clouds her ability to see how it's actually abusive in some ways!
Thank you also for reflecting and sharing your personal experiences on this topic.
I'll try to stop by more often, I'm trying to get more
addictedactive on Hive again.Have a great week as well! :)
I have only been involved with 3D Printing as an observer, but it looks like a lot of fun :)
Some people don't recognize the damage that they are doing when they are "helping" - some know exactly. What I find interesting on Hive for example, is when people are constantly complaining about whatever it is, they see themselves as adding perspective. However, they make the assumption that they are the only ones who are doing so from that perspective. I think this is because a lot of people don't actually interact much in the real world these days. For me, I don't surround myself with idiots, yes-men or people who universally agree with me and, I am not only talking to people on Hive.
Welcome back any time :)
It's addicting! ;)
Thanks for the warm welcome back.
From a psychology point of view (not a psychologist just find psychology interesting and important) I notice a deficit with a person who is obsessed with helping others. In that their home/personal life might greatly suffer, because there is a trauma or some kind of issue they are not able to address with themselves, or realize is there in some cases. So in an attempt to fix (or avoid taking a look at) the issue, it becomes an outer seeking rather than an inner seeking and can easily become corrosive to their loved ones.
Maybe there is a correlation with what you mentioned about your dad.
With my friend, it's impossible for her to ever be wrong about anything or see things from an outside perspective, and she will scream in rage if you try.. So.. limit interaction and yes man the shit out of her is my way of coping/dealing with it. I love her and care about her and know she's a good person, so I just deal with it. Perception greatly varies between everyone and who I am to say I am even correct with how I perceive what is going on in her mind? I would like to believe that's humility, to be objective with myself.
Well put, and from my perspective this is all by design with specific intent, lemme go grab my tin foil hat :D
Below is my dedicated 3D printing account. If you ever find yourself getting more involved than just an observational point of view, I would be happy to answer any questions or help you in any ways that I can.
Thank you for the great conversation @tarazkp.
This is an excellent reflexion. It applies to so many aspects of life, here and elsewhere. The story of the pancreatitis patients illustrates the situation brilliantly.
I remember hearing a doctor say that it was frustrating to have to treat certain kinds of patients. He gave me some numbers of the trauma wing and how most of the budget and resources was used on motorcycle riders (most of them associated with crime).
You gotta do what you gotta do, they say. Everyone has to make the needed adjustments to be where they want to be.
It happens in schools too, where the kids that are doing okay get little support, while the one or two psychos take the majority of time and attention. I understand it more in a school though, as for the most part, all the kids are innocent in the circumstances they find themselves in.
I have a friend who is a top heart surgeon here and half of his patients die. The reason is that they hand him the worst case scenarios that are already so far gone, there is not much that can be done, but if there is something, he will be the one who can likely do it. Perhaps his effort would be better spent on others.
People are finding many different excuses to explain their failures - how could they and their behaviour be the reason of them being poor/dumb/naive; you name it.
I do it myself as well, but at least I always add that I should do something different and maybe outcome would be different. And it may be actually me failing to recognize the problem or being too lazy😶
it sucks but it is sad truth - I am a lazy person. I dont like to work really hard. I like clicking things and getting paid. I can also write some simple code.
Maybe this is why I am a programmer? So computer can do things for me?🙃
I am a procrastinator - I can put a lot of stuff off and in the past, did just that. By working hard I could change that process and work against my personality - but I can start on that tomorrow.
They say that, if you want something done fast, get the laziest person to do it.
Maybe this is what makes a coder, someone who will find a more efficient way to do something manual. I know some very lazy coders who work very hard to automate the simplest things!! :D
yeah exactly :D
another thought is "how to turn me being lazy into my strong point?"
I am still working on it as the competition is FIERCE :P
It is one of the most hotly contested "skillsets" around today! :D
Just came along your profile and you have a really great writing style!
The topic is really deep and has a meaning to me. When I read about those topics I am one of those peoples that "just read" but is not doing any commentary. I just let it "sink in".
But I had to appreciate your work.
!PIZZA
Thanks :)
Welcome any time and please, comment more all over the place - it makes a difference to the author you are reading :)
I also have close people who have these qualities of complaining about their problems/addictions but each time we meet and chat, it’s the same. They don’t change and if I try to give an advice they either don’t say it’s not going to work or even might get offended. That makes me think that these kind of people are pretty comfortable where they are and they are just talking out loud to get some relief. I used to think that I’m helping them by letting them to just talk, but then it gets tiring, like listening to the same song over and over again. To sum up, I only listen to my closest friends and relatives now, and if they don’t want an advice, I just let them talk cause I know they can’t afford a psychologist, and they are using me as a person they can trust and be vulnerable with. If it becomes to much for me I can always space out. I think close relatives deserve some of my time, and I know when I feel sad and need a support they’ll listen to me and might give a good advice.
I don't spend much time with people who complain often. It is tiring, so I disengage and then only get them at their best, when they are least likely to be whiny. If they are actually doing something about their complaints (rare), I have plenty of time for them. If I do this in my real world, why would I spend my time listening to complaints from the same people here?
Seriously, they let you as a kid waste away while this guy wasn't even following doctor's orders while being treated? That's messed up.
You definitely have to pull away from those who are just wasting your resources. I had to make a similar choice with someone online. I wanted to see this person succeed. But some seem determined to be stuck in the same unending loop...
Yeah, it was messed up. I was also told that what was causing the pancreatitis, wasn't. I haven't had a lot of luck with my health or medical help in general throughout my life part of the reason I value taking responsibility to look after myself as much as possible.
Yes, it is difficult to watch. But, their choice.
It sounds like you need better doctors :( ... Or like you said, take care of your own health. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the original problem.
Yes it is hard to watch, and sometimes you just have to pull away completely when you know you can't do anything. That could actually be what wakes them up, who knows.
At one time I wrote about the Pareto principle, but it seems to me that in this situation where people have to decide to continue their efforts or not, with respect to someone, it works in the 5/95 ratio..
People are more likely to refuse to support others without seeing real change. And rightly so.
I agree that a valuable and scarce resource should not be wasted without believing in a successful outcome, and I agree that resources should be redirected to where they can have maximum effect.
But, on the other hand, we do not know what a person has inside when they have a critical moment, a "bifurcation point," when just one more word from us can change them and their whole life. As the Bible says: "In the morning sow your seed, and at evening withhold not your hand, for you do not know which will prosper, this or that, or whether both alike will be good."(Ecclesiastes 11:6).
It is subtle and individual, and one must have wisdom and faith to do right in each individual case..
If the million words over years didn't make the difference, it is unlikely one more will. The next word is statistically more useful used elsewhere.
In my opinion, it is about relationship collaboration and while it is never 1:! reciprocity, there has to be some mutual benefit. the good feeling of helping someone can be felt by helping anyone, so in regards to resource allocation, it is very much like a marketplace of products, where people are looking to maximize their buying power (at least in their head) rather than throw resources away.
It also comes down to the type of relationship that people have and online, those relationships are tenuous at best and, the real situation is largely hidden.
I think this is the most important message within this post, while the world around us telling "people never change" like a mantra. This authorize some to not even try to improve, but on the sideline they worsen. If the mantra woul'd be "improve or worsen" while known to be steady is the hardest, it might would be different. Even for addicts, they are not the same within time, they worse, and the next round just silencing the voice inside which draws attention to this fact. It's not fair telling them they are not changing while they actually are.
Exactly. So the other thing we can choose to do for our entire lives, is learn - yet most people think that is about opening up a book or getting some kind of useless information from the internet - it is about learning how to live better.
You and your brother get a lot of comments, you two also try to respond to all of them or the vast majority of them. It takes time. I got a lot of comments on one of Galen's post not long ago, it took me what felt like forever to respond o them all, and then I had other comments to respond to. So it takes a lot of time, and I remember back on steem when I was part of an onboard and help new users team, it took a lot of time, and still like you said some just did not get it or were unwilling to get it, or were just pretending so they could get support.
I waste a lot of time doing meaningless things, but when it is a waste of time trying to help it really wears down on the nerves, the body and the spirit, and can as you showed in your 18 year old story use up a precious resource that could be used by someone else that would honestly value it.
Yeah, it is time consuming, but also rewarding in many ways. How else are you meant to get to know people here? Those here just for the rewards though, they don't care about the people behind the votes, as long as they get some money.
It is the spirit that kills me the most. People who could have had better and even helped others, but instead - they "did what they wanted" and will take that to the grave. Hopefully that feels good for them.
I always try to help people who are in a bad situation such as addiction. As time passes and I see no changes, I give up. I can't respect one who does not have respect for themselves.
It is funny that we see it as "giving up" isn't it? It shouldn't be that way - it is moving on.
This time you reminded me of an anime masterpiece Monster. The best doctor was assigned to operate on the politician because he promised money to the hospital even despite the fact that doctor was needed to save a kid who had a bullet in his head.
I think after this I would eat like Goku...
I wonder who would be paying for that😭I don't think I said this before- Thank you for spending your resources on me.
I wish I could have! I have made up for it since... unfortunately ;D
Since i am writing this comment ,using my time and energy for something good cause.This article is very relevant to me because i have seen my senior elder spent whole life to get balance the living standard where Time is spent on earning money But Energy was gone .It means if he had energy and time then no enough money to sustain the living and when he had money then no enough time and energy to enjoy the rest of the life peacefully.
This is the fact of todays life .Addiction is good if it helps to balance your daily lifestyle as well make ones productive nor limited resources drainer.
It is a hard balance to find these days, especially with increasing prices and salaries not keeping pace. People are getting burned out very young now - also becuase young people are generally easier to burn out too :)
So long as the resources are mine, this is what I practice and I wouldn't have anyone do it any other way.
Each makes their own decision, even when it seems there is no other choice.
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we can LITERALLY RE WIRE BRAINS to replace DRUGS with CRYPTO but they have to be able to make the person happier than teh drugs and pay for housing and healthcare
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