So, @dreemsteem and @acidyo ... I have been going through the dispute between @themarkymark with his bot @buildawhale with @xeldal and @enki, and here is the issue of the overly large DVs: @themarkymark and @buildawhale are not accounting for the fact that @xeldal is powering down, so @themarkymark and company's votes are getting out of proportion. They also are DVing within 24 hours, and that dissuades anyone else from voting up the post. That freezes the author out entirely as well.
(Now, IN FAIRNESS: @xeldal and @enki make it their business, EVERY TIME @themarkymark posts, to hit him with a $42 DV. Mark gets ZEROED, every single time. That has not been addressed either, so, while it is no excuse for attacking smaller Hivers indiscriminately, it is context.)
I am one of Hive's most prolific and highest quality-producers. I have enough support so I have endured the FOOLISHNESS ... but because I also produce Things Ms. Dee Likes every week and add New Hivers, I know that New Hivers are being caught up in this and that SLOWLY, our growth is slowing because that's one more person who doesn't have a good story to tell about Hive -- so if @themarkymark and his bots and friends persist in this, they will have a negative impact on Hive's eventual adoption.
I agree with you, @acidyo, that quality posts should be left alone. I also have it on good authority that @themarkymark spent a year DVing stuff he hadn't even bothered to check for quality --the founder of Cast Garden, @kencode, has some stories to tell about THAT kind of irresponsible behavior. What we DO NOT NEED TO BE DOING is discouraging quality work on Hive and indiscriminately DVing. @deraaa has done nothing wrong. She does not need to be DVed into the ground. Neither does anyone else that is coming and sharing their genius with Hive.
I look forward to seeing a workaround for this issue, @dreemsteem and @acidyo. Keep the reality of the fact that Hive is NOWHERE NEAR the top of most used decentralized platforms in mind -- read what @steevc discovered about that on CoinGecko and take it to heart. Hive needs us to be able to wholeheartedly SELL IT; we can't do that when whales are rolling over quality people because they can't work out their differences. We can't do that when authors have no recourse -- but a workaround would help a LOT. It would help the most if the whales sit down and work this out before this type of foolery becomes a part of Hive's reputation in the world and hampers its growth. Hive has enough enemies as it is. We do not need to make them of good Hivers like @deraaa.
@xeldal ... thank you for the upvote here ... by that I also know that you are paying attention, and you are listening, and you are doing what you are doing, MANUALLY. You also have great power, and great responsibility. What is going on between you and Mark is grown folks' business, of course, but just know that people like @deraaa and New Hivers really are suffering because of this whale war. I need you to be aware of the impact your decisions and Mark's decisions are having. I appreciate every upvote you have ever given me, and I'm sure others do too... yet we need a way out of this war.
have an idea...a group of us came up with it over the last 24 hours.. will post soon ...will tag you hehehe
OK!
@themarkymark -- I had 50 cents on this post before @xeldal voted it up, and now that you and yours have come through MANUALLY, it is down to 44 cents. This PROVES what @deraaa and many others have been saying; you and yours are NOT DVing in proportion, but taking EXTRA. This is the very thing we are trying to avoid: needlessly harming other Hivers because you and Xeldal aren't getting along. You are NOT just taking off what Xeldal puts on, you are, IN FACT, taking 12 percent MORE, at least in this case (12 percent of 50 cents is 6 cents).
@xeldal, I need you to understand: your upvotes are being OVER-COMPENSATED for in DVs, so although I know you mean to HELP, that is not what is happening, but instead the REVERSE. 12 percent is CONSIDERABLE damage for new Hivers trying to get established and also those who truly need their rewards. Please be mindful of this fact as you upvote.
@dreemsteem, @acidyo, and @kencode -- PROOF of what Deraaa and others have been saying has now been provided. I myself, on my comment, have taken a 12 percent loss of my comment from Mark and his associate's DV, from 50 cents down to 44 cents. Since Mark and Xeldal are persisting in doing this on my personal posts, I should be able to see if that percentage holds in the next week of my posts, and if it does, @dreemsteem and @acidyo, you will know how much support other Hivers going through this are going to need in order to counteract the damage.
Sorry but weren't xeldal and co also downvoting any/everything @themarkymark curated thus pushing him to stop his autovote support? I just feel like this got missed somewhere but needs to be said, it's not just that they downvoted his posts AFAIK, in that case it definitely would be quite shitty by Marky to do this. Just trying to stay a bit neutral here and look at how the events unfolded but have been super busy the past few months to stay up to date on these things.
I have seen some of the accounts that xeldal were upvoting for a long time, aside from the influencers who were quite inactive apart from cross-posting, there were some really fishy accounts that gave me sockpuppet farming vibes. In many ways that was also abusing the reward pool, ecosystem and taking from everyone else, albeit not as directly affected as many accounts are now.
I do however respect that xeldal has started spreading his votes out more lately and wish they could find a common ground and leave each other be while making sure that this is how Hive's meant to work. You can't get your way to vote on whatever forever if the community finds the content/activity of certain accounts unwarranted of rewards. Just because one or few stakeholders are the ones doing the downvoting doesn't mean that they're the only ones who think so, most just don't downvote or ignore the option completely.
Not sure what the best solution could be here, maybe we'd need certain stakeholders to curate/upvote those receiving xeldal upvotes or/and marky downvotes where there's more people deciding on it and that way try to get xeldal/marky to leave those that the community interfered with be. Would appreciate your thoughts on this possible solution here @themarkymark & @xeldal.
As a simple example:
xeldal upvotes @deraaa, marky counters the downvote
a team of multiple curators, maybe something @dreamsteem could set up would check what these two bad boys voted that day and take it to a vote if the content/user activity is worth defending to counter with a positive vote.
xeldal gets more curation rewards from that account/post and marky notices that this vote was valid and places said account on a list not to downvote or maybe to even upvote in the future.
At the same time we could do the same for Marky and xeldal would respect the same rules, i.e. if marky upvotes something and xeldal counters but the "community" "deems it worthy" they'll stop downvoting that account in the future.
This could filter out which accounts/posts not to downvote and give the community a bit more say if both parties were up for it and if the community doesn't vote/counter certain downvotes on the initial upvotes from either or, they'd have to just make due with the fact that maybe that was a valid downvote or a too high of an upvote.
This would mean someone (possibly me), would take a big cut in curation rewards for some time forward but the outcome would be that xeldal would get higher returns and marky could upvote content again, edit: and of course more peace of mind among innocent authors new and old.
Yes, @acidyo, you are right -- and I've been saying it -- @xeldal and @enki hit @themarkymark with a big $42 DV every time he posts. The most recent such example was April 1. I can understand the WHY of Mark's response, in light of that. The problems with it are three-fold.
Veterans like me who know what is going on will tend to endure, BUT, we can't onboard into a situation like this because...
This fight is hurting newbies as well -- I see the New Hivers in my newsletters getting this put on their INTRODUCTORY POSTS. If ANYONE needs an exception made, the newbies do -- WE DO WANT HIVE TO GROW, RIGHT? How am I supposed to explain to the newbies, discouraged on their way in, that they should stay with a big DV sitting there?
Because Xeldal is now POWERING DOWN, Mark's DVs are going to be increasingly overpowered unless he is very careful. @buildawhale's DVs may already be a bit overpowered, and if I'm not mistaken, that account is under Mark's control (you may of course correct me if I am wrong, Mark). In a week, I shall have tracked at least what happens to my work.
NOW, it also must be considered, @acidyo if @xeldal has been and starts DVing everybody Mark upvotes, we are back in the same soup... so all of the injustice here needs to CEASE.
Okay but that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that if it was just about downvotes on Marky's post it would make him an asshole in this case, but xeldal and enki did the same thing to his autovote curated list of authors he was supporting. I don't know who started it but I think it was them as marky says he hasn't been able to curate authors in forever. Now that he's doing the same thing I don't think it makes it fair to paint him as the bad guy here and forget that he had the same thing done to him and many authors were probably affected then too.
It's the same issue just in the other direction now and the fact that xeldal's votes were mostly used on bad content/authors in the past makes it seem that these votes now are manipulative in trying to paint marky in a bad light especially if they did the same to him back then. Of course it's all bad for the platform and newcomers and we need to come to a solution or for other stakeholders to step in, but just want the truth and turn of events to be known.
i really don't think people are saying marky is a bad guy.
i think they're saying - be the good guy that you always have been and stop using downvotes in a manner that suggests you aren't even reading the content.
if you are manually downvoting, you are there ON the post and can see it doesn't deserve a massive downvote to remove curation.
everything else is smoke and mirrors.
the point is - be responsible with your downvote regardless of who has hurt you.
EVERY SINGLE user is told to deal with the downvotes.
A $42 downvote to a whale is the same as a $2 downvote to small user.
When they get hit with those $2 downvotes - for no reason, who is that helping?
that is the only issue at hand here.
Sure but in some comments she stated that "xeldal is just trying to help" and didn't mention that he has been doing the same thing that also affected authors at some point. My point is, this author could easily have been someone on marky's autovotes getting xeldal downvotes some time ago so it's something readers need to understand and be aware of. Xeldal could just be using his upvotes now to make marky be the bad guy while others don't realize that maybe xeldal was the one who started making things "ugly". I don't have all the facts and downvote history available but I doubt marky would be lying about getting his upvotes on the 200+ authors he used to curate canceled just because he was using his downvotes to counter some kind of abusive, spammy, sockpuppety posts as mentioned somewhere in this thread.
The way I'm seeing this unfold is:
xeldal votes on a lot of what many would consider "undeserving posts".
marky (and some others) intervene.
xeldal lashes out and starts downvoting marky and things he upvotes, but there it's not "undeserving posts".
Marky starts doing the same while instead voting for hbdstabilizer posts.
Xeldal starts to shift to more "deserving posts".
Marky continues.
That said it doesn't make this situation any less shitty.
The best outcome here would be for Marky to stop downvoting "deserving posts" as long as xeldal keeps the same voting pattern and doesn't go back to his old ways. Then marky could continue to support authors rather than hbdstabilizer and it'd be a win for the community.
totally agree about the murkiness.
that's why I'm not paying attention to the other stuff - cuz it just isn't what we're talking about.
we're talking about stopping the collateral damage.
If Deraaa came to me when xeldal was doing it - I'd say the same thing to him.
It doesn't matter WHO it is. what matters is - whales need to take a stance at NOT PARTICIPATING IN COLLATERAL DAMAGE simply to hurt another whale that is hurting them.
that's it. lol
that is the ONLY issue on the table. no he said she said matters.
I personally don't think that marky is a bad guy AT ALL. and xeldal - again - an enigma to me that is probably a lot more nuanced than he appears to be. (or she??)
but the thing is. If Marky is really not using some kind of automation on his votes - then its pretty easy to just leave deserving posts alone.
I think that is the thing that has everyone a little perplexed. Because I really can't see someone manually sitting by their computer and manually following every upvote 24 hours a day. but hey - if he says he's doing that? ok. then just leave the deserving posts alone, since you're reading them. right?
lol... right
again - not a bad guy - but... hey. i was born at night but not last night lol and i think we all feel a little silly being asked to believe that Marky is manually downvoting posts 24/7. but - it is what it is.
stop the collateral damage lol
OK ... I see what you are saying now. I did not realize that further back this thing went exactly the other way. FROM HERE, @xeldal appears to be doing good to good content creators, but because @themarkymark is not upvoting anyone, we can't see the other side of the coin except in the rare case of Mark's own posts. I can see the manipulation aspect now that I have more information.
But @acidyo, the fact remains: Deraaa and I and all these new Hivers did not need to be dragged into this, and we know whose DVs dragged us in. I'm willing to go for the premise of no good guys here between Mark and Xeldal and I've said that too. If we need both @xeldal and @themarkymark to care enough about this platform to stop feuding with each other so both their choices can get upvoted, I can accept that premise. But here is the thing: neither one has thought enough of the rest of us to move toward peace. Each is responsible for their part. Who wants to STOP BEING the BAD GUY?
All my upvotes have been countered for well over a year which I did nothing for a year in response. I used to curate over 200 unique authors a week, all with similar significant but not overpowered votes. I haven't been able to curate for over a year due to them as well as transisto due to downvoting abuse they supported.
How this all start? Because I downvoted @tdvtv who posts 20-40 times a day and was getting votes up to $80 on content that isn't even theres and frequently duplicate content. @xeldal threw a fit and started downvoting everything I post and upvote. But as usual, yeah I'm the bad guy here for doing what no one has the balls or ethics to do, counter abuse.
I have contacted @xeldal multiple times, said he and others are the ones losing. He doesn't care, he just wants to do whatever the fuck he wants unchallenged.
Marky, be fair man. You told me that you were downvoting every video on the https://vigilante.tv site without even watching any of them. The creators of those videos (like dan dicks of press for truth) puts hundreds of hours of work and expense into making those videos.
That site has become very popular with Millions of views and currently well over 10K hive comments so far. That's serious engagement and new users coming to hive. It's not spam. It's a popular site. Technically, if they got even more video creators over there, they could post to the chain every 8 minutes or so. That's not spam, it's what the chain was built for. A ton of engaging content.
Why would I watch that garbage? I can subscribe to the Enquirer if I wanted to read nonsense like this. But that's not why I am downvoting, and you know full well as we have spoken about it.
The site frequently duplicate posts, posts content already paid by other users who posted it, he frequently would get paid for other people's work.
Prior to me downvoting them and you making most of them declined rewards, he would be getting $50-80 posts up to 10 times a day, most of it going to Jeff.
He has his own account that posts, there is no reason it should be getting rewarded a second time through Jeff's account.
The irony though based on our previous conversation is pretty comical.
If a duplicate video gets auto-imported and is spotted by an admin, it gets deleted, along with its hive post if caught in time. That has only happened a few times over the past couple years and they took care of it immediately.
I'm looking at your screenshot there and I do not see those posts on @tdvtv. Is that an old screenshot?
As for double-dipping the rewards pool, they know better than to do that. If the video is "already paid" on a different hive post, then they burn the rewards. That's obvious when you look at their tdvtv posting account.
As for getting paid "for other people's work", what's wrong with that? It costs Jeff a ton of money each month to host those videos for those creators.
If I don't agree with someone's viewpoint, I would not use my HP to zero their income, I would change the channel and consume content that interests me.
You find all this "comical" yeah, but the Hive community obviously does not. You're hurting people, Marky.
No what I find comical is you reached out to me asking for help from Jeff but can't do anything because he is a customer. Out of the blue, when I have nothing to do with Jeff.
I'll summarize, but I can provide the transcript if needed.
Basically you approached me out of nowhere, I don't know you I don't know Jeff more than I know the guy bagging my groceries. You told me you can't take much more of him and how Jeff just constantly talks about himself for 20 minutes in every video and how amazing he is. Then you said you were concerned about his wife as he wants a "harem"? and how he talks about 3 young girls (age 12 you say) who work at his spa.
You said you don't want to do it as you may loose him as a client, so you expected me to come out with it. Again, I don't know you I don't know him, but I'm to be your bitch for this. You said someone should do this as his wife and kids maybe in danger (your words).
My recommendation was to go to authorties, but you said there were none in Mexico for the most part.
Did you end up talking to Michael about it?
This is what I find is funny, you came to me saying Jeff is pretty much the devil, and wanted help as you didn't know what to do, but you are too afraid he will stop using your service so it can't be you. Well, here you go, I will share it so you don't have to.
If there are any doubts, I have all the conversations screenshotted and saved.
What makes this so much more bullshit than it already is, the fact I stopped him from making $500+ a day on other people's work and duplicate content is exactly why @xeldal has been nuking everything I post or upvote for almost a year. Fortunately, unlike you, I value ethics over money.
Didnβt you just go to hive watchers complaining your customers are recycling content that your platform wasnβt suppose to allow?
It only proves the sliders are not 100% accurate since you can only use full 1% increments.
LOL, ok I've seen it all now. This is a man child throwing a fit because he can't upvote spam and stolen content. But yeah, he's the good guy here. ffs.
My work is not spam, and neither is Deraaa's, @themarkymark. You know that. Neither you or Xeldal are heroes, so don't even go there. I even acknowledged his big $42 DVs on you, remember? But, SIR; you are the one DVing EVERYBODY because you want to get back at Xeldal. Take some accountability here. He's not the one damaging good Hivers here. YOU ARE. You have a choice to keep doing that, or not. You have a choice to keep hurting Hive, or at LEAST be discriminate in what you do.
Thank you so much for this comment!!!
That makes a lot of sense that the disparity would come into play if xeldal is powering down - I guess that's why the posts are going beyond just the normal xeldal negation!!!
Wow- ok that is starting to add pieces to the puzzle now! Well, it seems like it's a simpler fix than we thought then???
Though - we did have a REALLY good idea from several people in my dm already, coming up with a cool way to help people! And I still might come to Acid and see if he thinks it's a great solution for the long term!
But the short term seems like - if @themarkymark can just adjust his downvotes to match the upvote of @xeldal - then at least the most pressing need is all handled???
What do you think @themarkymark - can this be adjusted so that no more posts get zeroed out for great writers? :)
Would so appreciate you taking a look at it!!!
No need to adjust, I am voting based on their vote value not their HP.
Thanks for reaching out!!!
I can understand using your downvote to negate rewards for bad writers - but if for some reason, xeldal (who I don't know...) is upvoting good writers - could you leave their posts alone?
I guess that Acid said that xeldal used to exclusively upvote spam and such, but for some reason - that seems to have changed. So maybe an auto-downvote isn't the best approach for this anymore? I don't know how to go forward - but I just don't think it's fair to hurt the good writers along with the bad.
I know it's your downvote to do as you wish, but if you could maybe take a second look to consider?
thanks again for commenting - I do appreciate it!!!
None of it is automated.
oh... sorry, I misunderstood. You actively downvoted deraaa's post? It had nothing to do with xeldal's upvote?
I am merely countering his votes.
Right - and I totally get that when he's using his upvotes to vote spam or low quality stuff.
but when it's a decent post - that's what I'm asking for you to reconsider.
If it actually benefits a good writer - would it be possible to just leave the upvote there to help a Hiver who is trying to do well?
So it's ok to squash one person's rewards for their personal work over a stupid fight with someone that's not even related to the content creator or quaility of their work?
Who do you think you are?
That's got to be the most arrogant, immature and asinine outlook on something I've ever heard on Hive or anywhere. I think anybody over the age of 10 knows better than that. You want to fight then fight with the one who started it and leave others out of it.
God, I feel like I'm talking to my kids.
How many times did we hear that over the years? Lol.
The sad part is that none of you whales act you like feel any remorse for the ones that you actually hurt in these petty wars. I suspect that you don't. Because if you did these wars wouldn't be happening.
Perhaps one day you guys will grow up and act like actual adults that newbies would look up to & try to emulate your success. I know that's probably just a silly dream of mine and it most likely isn't going to happen.
I can only hope that someday all you whales involved in these petty childish fights reap what you sow.
I've thoroughly enjoyed my time on Hive these last 2 years and I will continue to use Hive even if I end up in the middle of a stoopid pissy fit and down voted to hell. I don't care. But I will not and can not in good conscious continue to promote it to outsiders when there is a bunch of immature elephants dancing in a pit of ants.
There are several people with HUGE followings in the millions across many platforms that are ready to jump ship and bring their audience to a place like Hive and there is no way I or anybody else with a brain would dare to ask them to check out our blockchain with stupid temper tantrums like you whales are having.
I'm sorry if I'm throwing any shade your way @dreemsteem and hope he throws it my way and not yours. I'll take whatever Hive I have left and send it your way in an attempt to counter it if he does. I don't care about the money. I came here for the Freedom.
But I'm done with watching this stupid crap being done to people. I've kept my mouth shut long enough!
I just want to make sure I understand, @themarkymark -- you are PERSONALLY downvoting to counter? That would mean that you are PERSONALLY making it so good quality Hivers and NEW Hivers who are trying to get started are being zeroed out.
I understand that Xeldal and Enki abuse their power on you as well. I saw what they did to your April Fool's post, and many, many others. A $42 DV, in a bear market, is a big deal... but Mark ... Hive needs to grow and be adopted. We need quality posters. We need New Hivers to be able to get established. It takes a TRULY BIG WHALE, and a TRULY BIG HUMAN to not pass on abuse down the line. I'm asking you to find the bigness in yourself, Mark. @deraaa and the New Hivers need to be able to be here and do their work in peace. I'm a veteran with good support overall, and established, and I know what is going on, so I have not complained -- but @deraaa and the New Hivers need peace.
Literally, because I have now put out 20 editions of Things Ms. Dee Likes, I see New Hivers getting DVed AND I see the beginning of a slowdown and the lowering of Hive's retention rate. Think of all you have invested in Hive's success, Mark. Think about if Xeldal and Enki are worth you using your power to upend all that. Hive has too many people out there talking against it as it is. Think, Mark -- you don't need to be made the reason Hive's adoption is slowed. You don't need to be made the scapegoat for that. The power is in your hands. I'm asking you to care... not for my sake, because I would not have complained on my own behalf. I'm asking you for @deraaa, New Hivers, and HIVE ITSELF.