So first off, I am being chill - so I'm asking everyone who comments here - to just also ... be chill. Settle into a little zen. lol
No need for huge debates and big explosions.
I'm just a little dolphin, who likes to help. lol I've been around since 2016. I've seen things that honestly piss me off, and I've had some reactions that I'm not proud of.
But I like to think that I've learned a few things, since 2016. Grown some. I hope that I add to the good vibes on Hive. I try to have answers for those who come knocking. But this one? I'm at a loss, and I sure could use some help explaining what to do.
I don't usually tag whales, cuz I think they have better things to do than run around answering every request on the blockchain, but I've had some pretty decent conversations that were very respectful with a few - and so, I'd like to tag the two whales that are involved as I understand it - @themarkymark and @xeldal - and then, if for some reason, they can't comment - I've also had pretty cool (brief) respectful "whale interactions" with @acidyo and @azircon. I do not know the vibes between all of you - so, pardon if I just stirred up a little animosity, but if it's there? I sure would love if you could temporarily set it aside to give some guidance and simply assist me in letting people know your opinion on what to do in this situation.
NOTE: In case anyone doesn't know - I've been pretty public about trying to teach newbies that NO ONE owes you anything on Hive, and that that upvote does not actually "belong" to you until it has been claimed and is in your wallet. Up until the point of post payout - anything can and will happen with the value of the post as people weigh in on their evaluation of it. Right, wrong, or indiffferent - THAT is the way this blockchain is set up. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. By writing here - you subject yourself to the system.
So you can trust and be assured that THAT is my stance, and that is what I share to anyone who asks.
Having said that, there have been some sad situations where people (especially newbies) have found themselves unknowingly swept into a whale war.
That is the situation that I'm presenting here. That is what I need help understanding, so I can guide one particular smaller account (who happens to be a pretty amazing writer) as to how she should proceed. Her name is @deraaa, and as far as she knows... she hasn't transgressed any of the "NO-NOs of HIVE"
For the newbies among us, my definition of a whale war:
Two whales disagree on how their vote is being used. One feels that it is abusing the platform and giving an unfair preference to material that is undeserving. One feels the other should mind his/her own business. They war with words. When words fail, they war with votes. Usually, the one whale will upvote as he/she sees fit. The other whale will downvote with equal measure.
If whale A upvotes $5 vote power, whale B will usually downvote with $5 vote power.
But in this situation, @deraaa has seen that on her posts, not only is whale B (in this case, @themarkymark) downvoting to reverse the upvote of whale A (in this case, @xeldal) - but whale B is negating the entire value of the post.
This is usually indicative of some major transgression such as plagiarism, identity theft, flagrant scam/spam, and now even recently - some whales who are against any form of AI - even images. @deraaa has said she hasn't committed any of this - and is confused.
She's asked me:
should I just try to contact xeldal, and ask him to stop upvoting me - so I can keep SOME rewards for my writing?
should I just stay quiet and deal with it? (for fear of further retribution, as most smaller accounts are scared to do anything that might paint a bigger target on their back)
and then of course, other questions in my head are... should she just stop writing for a while, until things calm down? (CAN she do that? or does she depend on HIVE for financial assistance?) Should she attempt to reach out on her own and understand why the downvote goes beyond the initial upvote? Is there some other hidden thing happening that she's being punished for?
Normally I'd say - "Just leave it. Let the whales war, and it will eventually stop." The only people who get hurt in whale wars, are the little people, so just take a deep breath, realize its your turn 😥 , and set your mind on, "This too shall pass." Feels very self-defeating and discouraging - I know, but this is the situation we often find ourselves in on Hive. If you want to be on Hive, you're GOING to - at some point - be the recipient of the collateral damage of a whale war. Either you have the bones for it and stay - or you leave. Again - very sad, but true.
But in this case, I think you can see that it's not that simple, because she's even having the curation from communities and other hive members removed. If it's a case of any of any major transgression?? (plagiarism and such) - she deserves it. Plain and simple. If that's the case, please move on, and sorry to have wasted your time. (but please do feel free to state the problem, I think it helps us all.)
But, if not? I'm POSITIVE that I will need to be giving this SAME advice in a few weeks to another small account that comes asking for help, quietly.
My advice to each of them will be dependent on what I hear back from everyone here. My specific advice for @deraaa - well, Marky or Xeldal can speak directly to her! Feel free to use this as that space - or contact her directly.
Downvotes are part of our system, and are valuable when used correctly. I happen to think they are a valuable method of the community correcting bad behavior. However, if anyone wants to somehow try to intimidate me into not speaking my mind by throwing a few "bully" downvotes on this post - or even following me with a downvote in the future, feel perfectly free. I'm neither afraid nor intimidated by downvotes. Never have been, never will be. All that I make here, I find ways to help others. Do as you will... lol
Please remember..
We all know that EVERYONE has the ability to incite more negativity - and that MOST of us here are pretty skilled with our snark... but is it really necessary?
When you comment, there is no need for explosions, snide remarks, ego, rants, or hitting below the belt. etc. If you come here to add to the mix- peace is always cool. Just leave your comment, intend to help, and all will be well ❤️ If you're gonna stir stuff up - I'll just upvote other comments above yours, so that yours fades into obscurity. No ill will intended. Just not gonna give negativity a spotlight in my space.
Thanks!!!
(I'll respond to comments later, but let people chat without my interruption for a bit - unless I'm tagged specifically)
I honestly am at a loss here. I really did not expect a post Dreemie. Thank you so much. I just hope that all this ends peacefully and if not, I'm still proud of my content and being part of this family. I am honestly speechless 🤦❤️. Thank you so much for what you're doing. You're an inspiration to me from day one and this just proves that all voices can be heard no matter how small. Thank you again. ❤️❤️❤️
It's not cool what's happening, but this too shall pass.
I don't know what the answer is - but we can try to hope that it all just passes over you soon, and things go back to normal for you. In the meantime, the value of this post here is going to you lovely. and I upvoted your comment here too. and so did Joe and so did dreemport. and so did cesca :)
maybe others will too
and thank you again @acidyo... see my other heartfelt comment.
it means the world.
thank you from the fullness of my heart
I've had some concerns with this activity and have talked to @themarkymark about it, but other than giving my advice there's not much I can do. The way I see it, xeldal and enki have a history of voting for really bad posts by accounts that don't deserve them often (imo), I haven't had a problem with those receiving downvotes. It seems that this war between these accounts has caused them to try and negate each others votes to affect their returns, one being more successful than the other at it. It may have eventually pushed xeldal to stop voting up the usual suspects that I had no issue personally with getting downvotes to spread them over other accounts and that's when it has started to become a problem imo. I've advised marky a few times to limit it to authors who actually don't bring any value to the ecosystem as else it may do more harm than good, in one or many ways he's already won the "war" as he's forcing xeldal to use his votes on other accounts that are way more deserving, so not sure why he can't take a win there and leave it be. Furthermore if it's just about negating the votes, then maybe wait with the downvotes until the post is older, think 4-6 days age, if no one else voted it other than the account he has an issue with, then xeldal is the only one being punished along with the author, but downvoting this early and quick, as your example with @deraa, it also pushes others to not upvote it if they care about their curation returns. That's because anyone voting on it now shares the penalty of the downvote with other upvoters which turns it into a double "negative action" towards the author.
If I was in his shoes, I'd be more careful with who I'd downvote and who I'd let have the xeldal&enki vote, trying to lower their APR this excessively isn't worth the damage it brings to regular authors who aren't doing anything wrong. It's not worth it in my opinion to risk losing on authors who may go inactive or leave the platform over this, even if it's not really "taking anything from them", we all know that's how it feels receiving downvotes and seeing a post go back down close to 0 while at the same time discouraging others from curating it. Xeldal's APR is at 1.73% at the moment according to hivestats (default is around 8.5%) with over 200 votes coming in next week which would mean there must be a lot of authors affected I personally wish wouldn't be the case. I don't think it's worth chasing this activity longterm, especially having a lot of stake in the platform yourself it seems counterproductive, while it sucks that they downvote his posts due to disagreement of rewards which Marky's legitimate downvotes initially started out as, this isn't the answer imo. For all we know they could be spreading their votes at this point knowing Marky will downvote them to cause harm to the platform rather than trying to avoid his downvotes because that would be a lot easier to do if they cared about the APR (for instance just upvote posts on trending already similar to how rancho does it). I'm not sure what their motives are exactly, but I'd rather see downvotes used a bit less often and mostly in case they go back to the ways they used to operate rather than spraying them all over the place. Even if you don't care about the curation returns, this requires others to put in extra work to now look for xeldal's and marky's votes and curate the authors you feel didn't deserve a downvote which in turn would increase xeldal's apr but decrease your own.
There's a lot of other posts that could use more downvotes imo, but there's no real incentives to go out and chase them right now and I personally don't wanna help fund such activity as we've seen how that can quickly go wrong and be overdone if there's rewards to be made that way.
This comment got longer than expected, tl;dr:
If xeldal is voting on posts that aren't as shit as they used to be, leave it be, it's not worth the drama and negativity it brings to the platform, don't let his votes direct your downvotes but curate what should get downvoted. I know there's no incentives for doing that and a ton of backlash for downvoting to begin with, but that's just how the system works right now. I'd rather see this vote negation activity be limited to those with actual shitposts and for the community to band together and help counter the downvotes Marky receives on his posts than for this to continue the way it has been as it affects a lot more people negatively. If xeldal continues voting for "decent accounts" then it's fine if he receives higher curation APR, that's what we wanted to begin with I guess.
Not saying it's happening for sure but it could also be used as a form of manipulation. Behavioral patterns from the past often include getting people pissed off about downvotes, creating a rift, then the usuals show up and start talking about getting rid of downvotes, dismantling the reward pool, stripping away the base layer, forcing everyone to go their separate ways into layer 2 effectively dividing and disempowering the populace permanently, yadda yadda yadda. In other words harming the platform but disguising it as something the people want and need.
Everyone just needs to stay focused.
You called it. :D
Well, I certainly hope this isn't a situation where the affected accounts are just being used as pawns so someone else can be lured into looking like the villain, while the community gets duped into reacting. A reaction that then gets hijacked.
And yes, I can now see the gaslighting going full blast though which is not surprising.
Whatever. I see comments here teasing at a potential solution along with some serious issues emerging as more information comes to light.
I just hope to see this particular issue resolved. If it just turns into another months long politically charged smear campaign against Hive again backed by the usual suspects, I think I'll just head out to the lake for the summer rather than watching this place devolve into madness.
Really appreciate the fullness of this comment!! If I can ask you to reply again -
For @deraaa, what would your advice be? She's really my main concern. (and others like her)
For her to just stop writing for a while?
Seeing as for some reason, xeldal IS upvoting her - and she IS a quality writer.
She actually needs to write, because she's in school, and without going into more details.. she NEEDS to write.
Do you just suggest she starts a new account and writes that way? It's not like she can ask someone to stop upvoting her when it seems as though xeldal isn't really aware of where his votes go? So will probably not even notice the request?
And marky is downvoting so harshly that he's taking away even more than xeldal is giving. She's really in a fix here...
What's your advice to her (and others like her?)
I think he's downvoting both votes of xeldal and enki so not harsher afaik. I mean I wouldn't let it discourage her from writing, maybe there could be some kind of support groups created in the meantime where they send the affected users beneficiary rewards of their own posts or upvote comments, tip/donate etc until it blows over. Upvote her comments more for a while, there's probably many different ways it could be countered differently.
yeah - i just did upvote her comments - you can too if you like! LOL its here on the post!
and no - she said that she also got curation from Cinnamon Cup Coffee Community - and even that was taken away - beyond the xeldal vote
Her posts have been going down to almost nothing. so the downvote has been going beyond what xeldal is giving, as far as what @deraaa says
Oops, just realized I spelled the username wrong in the initial comment, but hmm, it's a sucky situation. Maybe some kind of special daily/weekly posts to highlight the posts of those affected by this issue could help? OCD could then assist with some curation with the rewards going to the affected authors and some to the person compiling it. Could start out with those you know and then maybe branch out to others that seem to be unfairly affected, this way we wouldn't increase the APR of the "bad whales". Just a top of my head bandaid fix possibly, lucky for us Hive is quite flexible and there's usually a solution for almost everything. Let me know if you interested.
hey... i appreciate you trying to come up with a solution :) i really do!
i'm gonna give her the post rewards (well, liquid I guess? ) from this post too - I didnt say it on the main post cuz its not anyone's business. hahaha and yes - they can read through the comment section but most don't bother. lol
I'd love for what you suggested to happen - my concern is that people who are "bad apples" would come knocking too - and then it becomes more of an issue than you can handle.
I'll keep thinking about it though - and bring it up to a few people like - well, I'll tag them here.. @snook @deraaa @wesphilbin @samsmith1971 @shadowspub @bluefinstudios @kenechuckwu97 @kemmyb - and maybe we can put our heads together and come up with something that makes sense too!
Again - THANK YOU for just being willing to talk and bring some direction to where to go from here.
I know it doesn't get fixed - but maybe we at least offer some temporary help while the cloud passes!
@dreemsteem...
Gosh... I am not really a "call" guy lol. I have not been able to attend PYPT for some time either; life, health, "grandkids" lol... Free time is always a commodity, as you know. As is quiet to be able to hear lol. But for sure... hit me up in DM or whatnot. I don't really have that much in terms of finances... but I have fingers!! Also... appreciate your input @acidyo ✌️.
You didnt tag me but I'm throwing my hat in the ring. Just give a shout and I'm there for whatever I can do.
Absolutely! I'll DM you but set up a call and let's talk it through with a few people!
So, @dreemsteem and @acidyo ... I have been going through the dispute between @themarkymark with his bot @buildawhale with @xeldal and @enki, and here is the issue of the overly large DVs: @themarkymark and @buildawhale are not accounting for the fact that @xeldal is powering down, so @themarkymark and company's votes are getting out of proportion. They also are DVing within 24 hours, and that dissuades anyone else from voting up the post. That freezes the author out entirely as well.
(Now, IN FAIRNESS: @xeldal and @enki make it their business, EVERY TIME @themarkymark posts, to hit him with a $42 DV. Mark gets ZEROED, every single time. That has not been addressed either, so, while it is no excuse for attacking smaller Hivers indiscriminately, it is context.)
I am one of Hive's most prolific and highest quality-producers. I have enough support so I have endured the FOOLISHNESS ... but because I also produce Things Ms. Dee Likes every week and add New Hivers, I know that New Hivers are being caught up in this and that SLOWLY, our growth is slowing because that's one more person who doesn't have a good story to tell about Hive -- so if @themarkymark and his bots and friends persist in this, they will have a negative impact on Hive's eventual adoption.
I agree with you, @acidyo, that quality posts should be left alone. I also have it on good authority that @themarkymark spent a year DVing stuff he hadn't even bothered to check for quality --the founder of Cast Garden, @kencode, has some stories to tell about THAT kind of irresponsible behavior. What we DO NOT NEED TO BE DOING is discouraging quality work on Hive and indiscriminately DVing. @deraaa has done nothing wrong. She does not need to be DVed into the ground. Neither does anyone else that is coming and sharing their genius with Hive.
I look forward to seeing a workaround for this issue, @dreemsteem and @acidyo. Keep the reality of the fact that Hive is NOWHERE NEAR the top of most used decentralized platforms in mind -- read what @steevc discovered about that on CoinGecko and take it to heart. Hive needs us to be able to wholeheartedly SELL IT; we can't do that when whales are rolling over quality people because they can't work out their differences. We can't do that when authors have no recourse -- but a workaround would help a LOT. It would help the most if the whales sit down and work this out before this type of foolery becomes a part of Hive's reputation in the world and hampers its growth. Hive has enough enemies as it is. We do not need to make them of good Hivers like @deraaa.
@xeldal ... thank you for the upvote here ... by that I also know that you are paying attention, and you are listening, and you are doing what you are doing, MANUALLY. You also have great power, and great responsibility. What is going on between you and Mark is grown folks' business, of course, but just know that people like @deraaa and New Hivers really are suffering because of this whale war. I need you to be aware of the impact your decisions and Mark's decisions are having. I appreciate every upvote you have ever given me, and I'm sure others do too... yet we need a way out of this war.
have an idea...a group of us came up with it over the last 24 hours.. will post soon ...will tag you hehehe
OK!
@themarkymark -- I had 50 cents on this post before @xeldal voted it up, and now that you and yours have come through MANUALLY, it is down to 44 cents. This PROVES what @deraaa and many others have been saying; you and yours are NOT DVing in proportion, but taking EXTRA. This is the very thing we are trying to avoid: needlessly harming other Hivers because you and Xeldal aren't getting along. You are NOT just taking off what Xeldal puts on, you are, IN FACT, taking 12 percent MORE, at least in this case (12 percent of 50 cents is 6 cents).
@xeldal, I need you to understand: your upvotes are being OVER-COMPENSATED for in DVs, so although I know you mean to HELP, that is not what is happening, but instead the REVERSE. 12 percent is CONSIDERABLE damage for new Hivers trying to get established and also those who truly need their rewards. Please be mindful of this fact as you upvote.
@dreemsteem, @acidyo, and @kencode -- PROOF of what Deraaa and others have been saying has now been provided. I myself, on my comment, have taken a 12 percent loss of my comment from Mark and his associate's DV, from 50 cents down to 44 cents. Since Mark and Xeldal are persisting in doing this on my personal posts, I should be able to see if that percentage holds in the next week of my posts, and if it does, @dreemsteem and @acidyo, you will know how much support other Hivers going through this are going to need in order to counteract the damage.
Sorry but weren't xeldal and co also downvoting any/everything @themarkymark curated thus pushing him to stop his autovote support? I just feel like this got missed somewhere but needs to be said, it's not just that they downvoted his posts AFAIK, in that case it definitely would be quite shitty by Marky to do this. Just trying to stay a bit neutral here and look at how the events unfolded but have been super busy the past few months to stay up to date on these things.
I have seen some of the accounts that xeldal were upvoting for a long time, aside from the influencers who were quite inactive apart from cross-posting, there were some really fishy accounts that gave me sockpuppet farming vibes. In many ways that was also abusing the reward pool, ecosystem and taking from everyone else, albeit not as directly affected as many accounts are now.
I do however respect that xeldal has started spreading his votes out more lately and wish they could find a common ground and leave each other be while making sure that this is how Hive's meant to work. You can't get your way to vote on whatever forever if the community finds the content/activity of certain accounts unwarranted of rewards. Just because one or few stakeholders are the ones doing the downvoting doesn't mean that they're the only ones who think so, most just don't downvote or ignore the option completely.
Not sure what the best solution could be here, maybe we'd need certain stakeholders to curate/upvote those receiving xeldal upvotes or/and marky downvotes where there's more people deciding on it and that way try to get xeldal/marky to leave those that the community interfered with be. Would appreciate your thoughts on this possible solution here @themarkymark & @xeldal.
As a simple example:
xeldal upvotes @deraaa, marky counters the downvote
a team of multiple curators, maybe something @dreamsteem could set up would check what these two bad boys voted that day and take it to a vote if the content/user activity is worth defending to counter with a positive vote.
xeldal gets more curation rewards from that account/post and marky notices that this vote was valid and places said account on a list not to downvote or maybe to even upvote in the future.
At the same time we could do the same for Marky and xeldal would respect the same rules, i.e. if marky upvotes something and xeldal counters but the "community" "deems it worthy" they'll stop downvoting that account in the future.
This could filter out which accounts/posts not to downvote and give the community a bit more say if both parties were up for it and if the community doesn't vote/counter certain downvotes on the initial upvotes from either or, they'd have to just make due with the fact that maybe that was a valid downvote or a too high of an upvote.
This would mean someone (possibly me), would take a big cut in curation rewards for some time forward but the outcome would be that xeldal would get higher returns and marky could upvote content again, edit: and of course more peace of mind among innocent authors new and old.
Yes, @acidyo, you are right -- and I've been saying it -- @xeldal and @enki hit @themarkymark with a big $42 DV every time he posts. The most recent such example was April 1. I can understand the WHY of Mark's response, in light of that. The problems with it are three-fold.
Veterans like me who know what is going on will tend to endure, BUT, we can't onboard into a situation like this because...
This fight is hurting newbies as well -- I see the New Hivers in my newsletters getting this put on their INTRODUCTORY POSTS. If ANYONE needs an exception made, the newbies do -- WE DO WANT HIVE TO GROW, RIGHT? How am I supposed to explain to the newbies, discouraged on their way in, that they should stay with a big DV sitting there?
Because Xeldal is now POWERING DOWN, Mark's DVs are going to be increasingly overpowered unless he is very careful. @buildawhale's DVs may already be a bit overpowered, and if I'm not mistaken, that account is under Mark's control (you may of course correct me if I am wrong, Mark). In a week, I shall have tracked at least what happens to my work.
NOW, it also must be considered, @acidyo if @xeldal has been and starts DVing everybody Mark upvotes, we are back in the same soup... so all of the injustice here needs to CEASE.
Okay but that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that if it was just about downvotes on Marky's post it would make him an asshole in this case, but xeldal and enki did the same thing to his autovote curated list of authors he was supporting. I don't know who started it but I think it was them as marky says he hasn't been able to curate authors in forever. Now that he's doing the same thing I don't think it makes it fair to paint him as the bad guy here and forget that he had the same thing done to him and many authors were probably affected then too.
It's the same issue just in the other direction now and the fact that xeldal's votes were mostly used on bad content/authors in the past makes it seem that these votes now are manipulative in trying to paint marky in a bad light especially if they did the same to him back then. Of course it's all bad for the platform and newcomers and we need to come to a solution or for other stakeholders to step in, but just want the truth and turn of events to be known.
i really don't think people are saying marky is a bad guy.
i think they're saying - be the good guy that you always have been and stop using downvotes in a manner that suggests you aren't even reading the content.
if you are manually downvoting, you are there ON the post and can see it doesn't deserve a massive downvote to remove curation.
everything else is smoke and mirrors.
the point is - be responsible with your downvote regardless of who has hurt you.
EVERY SINGLE user is told to deal with the downvotes.
A $42 downvote to a whale is the same as a $2 downvote to small user.
When they get hit with those $2 downvotes - for no reason, who is that helping?
that is the only issue at hand here.
Sure but in some comments she stated that "xeldal is just trying to help" and didn't mention that he has been doing the same thing that also affected authors at some point. My point is, this author could easily have been someone on marky's autovotes getting xeldal downvotes some time ago so it's something readers need to understand and be aware of. Xeldal could just be using his upvotes now to make marky be the bad guy while others don't realize that maybe xeldal was the one who started making things "ugly". I don't have all the facts and downvote history available but I doubt marky would be lying about getting his upvotes on the 200+ authors he used to curate canceled just because he was using his downvotes to counter some kind of abusive, spammy, sockpuppety posts as mentioned somewhere in this thread.
The way I'm seeing this unfold is:
xeldal votes on a lot of what many would consider "undeserving posts".
marky (and some others) intervene.
xeldal lashes out and starts downvoting marky and things he upvotes, but there it's not "undeserving posts".
Marky starts doing the same while instead voting for hbdstabilizer posts.
Xeldal starts to shift to more "deserving posts".
Marky continues.
That said it doesn't make this situation any less shitty.
The best outcome here would be for Marky to stop downvoting "deserving posts" as long as xeldal keeps the same voting pattern and doesn't go back to his old ways. Then marky could continue to support authors rather than hbdstabilizer and it'd be a win for the community.
OK ... I see what you are saying now. I did not realize that further back this thing went exactly the other way. FROM HERE, @xeldal appears to be doing good to good content creators, but because @themarkymark is not upvoting anyone, we can't see the other side of the coin except in the rare case of Mark's own posts. I can see the manipulation aspect now that I have more information.
But @acidyo, the fact remains: Deraaa and I and all these new Hivers did not need to be dragged into this, and we know whose DVs dragged us in. I'm willing to go for the premise of no good guys here between Mark and Xeldal and I've said that too. If we need both @xeldal and @themarkymark to care enough about this platform to stop feuding with each other so both their choices can get upvoted, I can accept that premise. But here is the thing: neither one has thought enough of the rest of us to move toward peace. Each is responsible for their part. Who wants to STOP BEING the BAD GUY?
All my upvotes have been countered for well over a year which I did nothing for a year in response. I used to curate over 200 unique authors a week, all with similar significant but not overpowered votes. I haven't been able to curate for over a year due to them as well as transisto due to downvoting abuse they supported.
How this all start? Because I downvoted @tdvtv who posts 20-40 times a day and was getting votes up to $80 on content that isn't even theres and frequently duplicate content. @xeldal threw a fit and started downvoting everything I post and upvote. But as usual, yeah I'm the bad guy here for doing what no one has the balls or ethics to do, counter abuse.
I have contacted @xeldal multiple times, said he and others are the ones losing. He doesn't care, he just wants to do whatever the fuck he wants unchallenged.
Marky, be fair man. You told me that you were downvoting every video on the https://vigilante.tv site without even watching any of them. The creators of those videos (like dan dicks of press for truth) puts hundreds of hours of work and expense into making those videos.
That site has become very popular with Millions of views and currently well over 10K hive comments so far. That's serious engagement and new users coming to hive. It's not spam. It's a popular site. Technically, if they got even more video creators over there, they could post to the chain every 8 minutes or so. That's not spam, it's what the chain was built for. A ton of engaging content.
Why would I watch that garbage? I can subscribe to the Enquirer if I wanted to read nonsense like this. But that's not why I am downvoting, and you know full well as we have spoken about it.
The site frequently duplicate posts, posts content already paid by other users who posted it, he frequently would get paid for other people's work.
Prior to me downvoting them and you making most of them declined rewards, he would be getting $50-80 posts up to 10 times a day, most of it going to Jeff.
He has his own account that posts, there is no reason it should be getting rewarded a second time through Jeff's account.
The irony though based on our previous conversation is pretty comical.
If a duplicate video gets auto-imported and is spotted by an admin, it gets deleted, along with its hive post if caught in time. That has only happened a few times over the past couple years and they took care of it immediately.
I'm looking at your screenshot there and I do not see those posts on @tdvtv. Is that an old screenshot?
As for double-dipping the rewards pool, they know better than to do that. If the video is "already paid" on a different hive post, then they burn the rewards. That's obvious when you look at their tdvtv posting account.
As for getting paid "for other people's work", what's wrong with that? It costs Jeff a ton of money each month to host those videos for those creators.
If I don't agree with someone's viewpoint, I would not use my HP to zero their income, I would change the channel and consume content that interests me.
You find all this "comical" yeah, but the Hive community obviously does not. You're hurting people, Marky.
It only proves the sliders are not 100% accurate since you can only use full 1% increments.
LOL, ok I've seen it all now. This is a man child throwing a fit because he can't upvote spam and stolen content. But yeah, he's the good guy here. ffs.
My work is not spam, and neither is Deraaa's, @themarkymark. You know that. Neither you or Xeldal are heroes, so don't even go there. I even acknowledged his big $42 DVs on you, remember? But, SIR; you are the one DVing EVERYBODY because you want to get back at Xeldal. Take some accountability here. He's not the one damaging good Hivers here. YOU ARE. You have a choice to keep doing that, or not. You have a choice to keep hurting Hive, or at LEAST be discriminate in what you do.
Thank you so much for this comment!!!
That makes a lot of sense that the disparity would come into play if xeldal is powering down - I guess that's why the posts are going beyond just the normal xeldal negation!!!
Wow- ok that is starting to add pieces to the puzzle now! Well, it seems like it's a simpler fix than we thought then???
Though - we did have a REALLY good idea from several people in my dm already, coming up with a cool way to help people! And I still might come to Acid and see if he thinks it's a great solution for the long term!
But the short term seems like - if @themarkymark can just adjust his downvotes to match the upvote of @xeldal - then at least the most pressing need is all handled???
What do you think @themarkymark - can this be adjusted so that no more posts get zeroed out for great writers? :)
Would so appreciate you taking a look at it!!!
No need to adjust, I am voting based on their vote value not their HP.
Thanks for reaching out!!!
I can understand using your downvote to negate rewards for bad writers - but if for some reason, xeldal (who I don't know...) is upvoting good writers - could you leave their posts alone?
I guess that Acid said that xeldal used to exclusively upvote spam and such, but for some reason - that seems to have changed. So maybe an auto-downvote isn't the best approach for this anymore? I don't know how to go forward - but I just don't think it's fair to hurt the good writers along with the bad.
I know it's your downvote to do as you wish, but if you could maybe take a second look to consider?
thanks again for commenting - I do appreciate it!!!
None of it is automated.
oh... sorry, I misunderstood. You actively downvoted deraaa's post? It had nothing to do with xeldal's upvote?
I am merely countering his votes.
I just want to make sure I understand, @themarkymark -- you are PERSONALLY downvoting to counter? That would mean that you are PERSONALLY making it so good quality Hivers and NEW Hivers who are trying to get started are being zeroed out.
I understand that Xeldal and Enki abuse their power on you as well. I saw what they did to your April Fool's post, and many, many others. A $42 DV, in a bear market, is a big deal... but Mark ... Hive needs to grow and be adopted. We need quality posters. We need New Hivers to be able to get established. It takes a TRULY BIG WHALE, and a TRULY BIG HUMAN to not pass on abuse down the line. I'm asking you to find the bigness in yourself, Mark. @deraaa and the New Hivers need to be able to be here and do their work in peace. I'm a veteran with good support overall, and established, and I know what is going on, so I have not complained -- but @deraaa and the New Hivers need peace.
Literally, because I have now put out 20 editions of Things Ms. Dee Likes, I see New Hivers getting DVed AND I see the beginning of a slowdown and the lowering of Hive's retention rate. Think of all you have invested in Hive's success, Mark. Think about if Xeldal and Enki are worth you using your power to upend all that. Hive has too many people out there talking against it as it is. Think, Mark -- you don't need to be made the reason Hive's adoption is slowed. You don't need to be made the scapegoat for that. The power is in your hands. I'm asking you to care... not for my sake, because I would not have complained on my own behalf. I'm asking you for @deraaa, New Hivers, and HIVE ITSELF.
@dreemsteem...
Hope I'm the first...
will be really helpful if we get some understanding on how to help these little accounts! I'll hope for it. Morning Wes! did you take your 5 breaths today? hehehe I'll take mine now with you! hahaha <3
Thank you for doing this Dreemie, I did not know what she should do to be honest. As we know hive income is essential for her while she finishes school.
honestly tengo??? I didn't know what to do either. I'm really at a loss here.
but I couldn't just have her on her own. She's one of the good Hivers - and also one that needs the money. She writes so that she can earn.
I coudln't leave her alone. and I know that most small accounts are really scared to speak up and ask. I'm not! hehe so I'll step out for her, and for anyone else needing to know WHAT to do in these situations.
We don't really have a "government" and no one wants one! hahaha But if we all have to just act in the best interests of the community, then we need to be able to communicate without fear. I just hope we can know where to go from here, in peace, unity, harmony. I think its not that hard!!! We just need to start with communicating :)
thanks tengo! I know you look out for deraaa too!!! and I so appreciate that! She's one of the good ones! hehehehe
Yes and Monday is her birthday, now that would be a great birthday present if it was sorted out 🙏
I get downvoted when upvoted by certain people. My understanding was @theMarkyMark was not voting on posts anymore because Xmarkymark, who is not the same as XXXXXXXXX used to be, kept downvoting what he upvoted.
I now find the downvotes are getting more significant from another account. I have been wondering the same thing. What brought on the larger downvotes?
The truth is we make our bread and butter writing posts. To some, 'downvoting to make a point' is, do I eat today or not? to those they are downvoting.
I know checks and balances are there and need to be there, but the more significant wars used to at least be on the whale's posts.
@deraaa is a talented Author and makes Hive LOOK GREAT to anyone passing by to check out Hive.
I never understood how some do not see this as a negative for all of us, especially investors or those thinking of investing.
Good Luck @DreemSteem!!
Thank you so much. I am floored honestly and encouraged at the same time. ❤️❤️
Yes i get the downvotes often from the X accounts - and I don't really pay them any attention because they are just... part of the system, and I can't stop someone from creating an account and expressing their displeasure at SOME part of my post. Even if it has nothing to do with me? if it only has to do with an upvote from a whale - so be it...
I have to get used to it...
but this just doesn't seem fair and balanced here - and I'm not sure what to do to help @deraaa. I mean - aside from just handing her over some HIVE to get by! (which is no one else's business if I do or not hahaha - but that's not the point, right?)
It's just... what would the larger accounts have us do, in the midst of their war? Do they care? They are the ones who have invested large enough amounts to make HIVE valuable - so we HAVE to care what they think. If we want a platform that can help everyone - we HAVE to care what they think. But do they care what we think? I don't know. Is there some way to have some kind of understanding? Can they let us know what's going on at times? So we're not sitting here just kinda... scratching our heads?
I think that's what we all want. To know what's expected. Then people can make their own decision as to what the personally need to do.
You know? I think so. but hey - I guess we'll find out! Thanks @snook!!!! I appreciate your willingness to add to the mix!!
Hopefully this conversation will bring some solutions. The collateral damage, not only to the authors but also to the curators of such posts (who will likely stop wasting their upvotes on posts that do not reward them), is my complaint about these wars among the whales.
Question: are these downvotes automatic? Does marky automatically downvote anything xeldal upvotes? If so, can an adjustment be made so that downvotes cannot be made automatically, but must involve a human pushing the button themselves? This way, they could better know what material they were reducing the rewards on.
I wish that the whale wars stayed among the whales -but I think that just like every war - the bigger powers have bigger guns that damage so many people unnecessarily. It's really pretty sad.
Marky has said that they aren't automatic. I clarified, and asked if he actively downvoted deraaa's post then? I didn't realize that, and I didn't really understand why
He said that he is just merely countering xeldal's votes. When I said that I understood that Acid said in the past, that xeldal used to exclusively upvote "bad content" and that Marky was just protecting community by countering - but that if it wasn't automated, isn't it possible to just NOT counter the upvote? When it's helping a Hiver who is doing the right thing?
I mean - if it's automated, I'm not sure you can selectively request to ONLY downvote posts that are spam lol. But if it's not automated and you're right there reading the post, I would think it's pretty easy to just make a judgement call right there and leave the upvote to help a fellow Hiver doing well.
I'll see if he's amenable to that - hopefully yes!! :) Let's all just keep helping the good ones, right? lol Bad can leave. but let's try to HELP the good ones stay!
I've discussed this with acid before (not as even-headedly as you) and I must point out that xeldal, at least for a while there, was one of very few curators that upvoted a certain content. It didn't matter that it wasn't spam, or plagiarized. It was content that many have been censored for on other platforms. I didn't check his activity to see what else he upvoted. Downvotes are a way of demonetizing content one doesn't agree with. Many have figured out to burn their rewards, so the posts don't get downvoted, but do get read and supported. I applaud those accounts. They are not posting for the rewards, but curators can still earn on their posts.
If marky actually is hitting his downvote on posts of value, and he knows this, then he is harming himself along with others, if only via a tiny vindictive surge.
I have tailored my content to avoid downvotes, and I know others who have as well. Downvotes may have some value against plagiarism and spam (many accounts that some call spammers are just burning rewards too), but the effect on the little people has been censorship, and behavior modification.
I have moved my posts of that certain content to a platform that will not downvote them. And I use that platform to get information and to engage in discussions that do not happen, very often, here. Unlike others on that platform, I remain mostly on Hive - don't wanna throw out the baby with the bathwater. I disagree with you the downvotes are just a given that we have to deal with. This can be modified with the next fork. There seems to be a reluctance to change them in any way though. I don't know why.
Thank you for hosting this discussion.
I have been on places where there is no downvote, and I don't really like the feel of those places. It's almost like a free-for-all for activity that hurts the whole platform, and there is no way to curtail it.
If there was a better option - I'd be all for it - and I'm totally open to brainstorming! hahaha But I just haven't found it yet. On DreemPort - we simply don't screen that material in. It's not censored, it just isn't given our promotion. The original blog is still perfectly safe wherever it came from (as we don't HOST the blogs on our site.) That's OUR way around it. Protection -without persecution. but - that's DreemPort :)
I don't agree that things are censored on Hive - because - they're not - but i ABSOLUTELY agree that there is behavior modification! and not always for the better. If there was some better way for this - I'd also be all for it. But, I'm not sure that the powers that be want it different, and since they have all the power - it will stay the way it us until enough people are affected and simply walk away
I really hope it doesn't turn to that becuase I can honestly say I've seen what's out there. Hive is the best option for so many writers. People have a chance here. But the UNTAPPED POTENTIAL of Hive will always be limited by people who are unwilling to listen and adapt.
It's just the way it is, and I sincerely hope it doesn't grow to the point where it kills us. What a terrible waste that would be.
And thank you for mentioning that the discussion was even-headed. hahaha I try VERY hard to maintain open, respectful discourse so that things can actually get DONE. And I'm really pleased to see that both publicly on this post - and privately in DMs - some amazing ideas are forming. It's exciting - and I'm really glad that I got to be a part of that. so thank YOU for being willing to be a part of that too - with respect and vision and heart. I appreciate it with my whole being @owasco!
It's mutual my dear. I hope something good comes of this, if only an even-headed discussion.
an afterthought:
I am happy to go elsewhere for the content I believe is valuable but is not present here, but I have been chastised for going there and, possibly (not sure - maybe my content just sucks) blacklisted by a certain curator. More behavior modification. Stay here, make nice here, or we will not reward you no matter how good your content is.
I don't have a problem (much) with this. I think of it all as growing pains. I believe most of us here want what is best for hive. But what some of us think is best overall, harms the smaller accounts collaterally. This is not good for onboarding. It's scary. It's hard to understand. It feels wrong.
Question - you said you just don't accept that type of content for your promotions, which is fine with me. How often do you have to overlook posts for that reason?
Hello @owasco. I've always felt this, but seeing your statement makes it all too real for my PROFILE:
Thanks for giving a voice to my suspicions, wondering, ever wondering, why? Because I know that my content is worthy.
Take care.
!ALIVE
!LADY
You have this problem too? It gives hive a bad vibe. I wish they would stop the downvotes, but they feel harming small accounts is a small price to pay for protecting the rewards pool. Of course, the rulers benefit from the rewards pool the most. I sometimes feel like they run people down in the streets with their carriages without a second thought. Nothing is different here than irl. The rich will always get richer, as long as they make the rules.
View or trade
LOHtokens.@justclickindiva, you successfully shared 0.1000 LOH with @owasco and you earned 0.1000 LOH as tips. (1/14 calls)
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The tip has been paid for by the We Are Alive Tribe through the earnings on @alive.chat, feel free to swing by our daily chat any time you want.
@deraaa is a wonderful and gifted writer with depth. She writes beautifully with heart. She cares deeply about others and is a very encouraging and supportive member of the Hive community and adds value to a number of communities that provide assistance and engagement opportunities for newbie Hivers. Personally, I cannot even begin to think of where her posts fall short of requirements... Hopefully, Marky can clarify what the issue is so that it can be addressed. Like you, I doubt very much that Marky intended any malice toward Deraaa with his DV, and it is likely that it is simply a DV to wipe out Xeldel's vote. Perhaps he doesn't realise that he is unwittingly wiping out the entire value of her posts and all that is required is for him to adjust his DV % so that it is more in line with the Xeldel vote value. Thank you for bringing this issue to light @dreemsteem in such a positive, calm, and responsible manner. Others might have responded with more of a negative knee-jerk reaction upon hearing about the DVs, but you always seek to understand first, and then look for an equitable resolution to the issue at hand. I do hope this is resolved soon for Deraaa's sake !LUV
Edit: I have just seen Acidyo's enlightening comment... I didn't think the DV was directed at Deraaa. Sadly she just got caught up in the crossfire. I hope @themarkymark will reconsider his stance so as not to impact people's accounts beyond the achievement of the actual goal ie: to counter Xeldel and Enki.
@dreemsteem, @samsmith1971(6/10) sent you LUV. | tools | discord | community |
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I tagged you in a possible solution from acidyo above - maybe we can all think about it, come up with an solution and then propose it to him for OCD to help out!
A touchy issue many will shy away from but you being the caring person you are of course you raised it and presented the issue so well and hats off to you for that
I think at times most of us have got caught in whale wars but that doesn’t mean I am diminishing the issue for people who have been on the platform a long time it’s easy to say ohh well and move on
But for people new on her it can be so upsetting and frustrating and may cause some to give up and leave
So thanks again for raising the issue and it has lead to some interesting dialogue in the comments
Cheers
Ps I am not a whale of course but have given a couple of @deraaa’s comments a good sized upvote well good for me
Thank you so much sir!!!
No thanks needed keep you chin up and keep hiving
I MISS you Sir. hehehe
thank you for doing that for deraaa! I think she's going to be just fine to weather this storm - and hopefully we have some ideas if anyone else has some issues in the future!
and I know what you mean, I have become desensitized a lot about downvotes, and their effect. but there are so many that count on that money. They know they shouldn't - but man... when you need it - you need it.
This too shall pass, and we'll hope it passes soon and calm and with brighter days ahead.
once again - i miss you (i haven't been writing as much because real life is beckoning me at every turn... but i'm hoping that with "real life" - soon it will affect my online life in very positive ways hehehe)
sending you so much love to both you and L!!! love you weretwin hehe
I miss you to I have to admit I have not been as active on her with visiting and commenting for a while now its been a crazy couple of months for us, but I will get back to it
Were doing OK, suffering with allergies at the moment but that too shall pass
Nothing in the above, that conveys negativity; those that know me, already know this... I applaud you, @dreemsteem , for opening this line of communication. @deraaa ... as you can see, our blockchain is a conglomeration of people... both positive, and not (you'll see I didn't say "good" and "bad").
Also... appreciate your tagging this with #thoughtfuldailypost Dreemie... Let's have a positive, and meaningful chat here...
Yes. I see it. And Tengo always uses that line too😂. He says he doesn't believe in "bad" things or people. Just slightly less positive. Hehehe. Thank you very much
Thank you @acidyo 🙏
I really appreciate that - and I guarantee.. deraaa's eyes are probably too filled with tears to respond just yet. lol thank you again. I think sometimes people forget that Hive means EVERYTHING to some people. It's easy to lose sight of that.
Thanks for bringing real help to someone in need.
hey no problem at all, some people need to understand that hive is also nothing without people, if we can't help them and value them then what are we even doing here.
#truth
❤️
HUGE HUGS!
!LUV
@acidyo, @samsmith1971(7/10) sent you LUV. | tools | discord | community |
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Community!!
(With a Braveheart voice!)
!LUV
@dreemsteem, @samsmith1971(8/10) sent you LUV. | tools | discord | community |
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Thank you so much @acidyo for taking out time to engage with this. With us. Dreemsteem has been a source of inspiration from day one. And what's she's doing is noteworthy. I also thank you for what you're doing and what you've done for me (us in general). Arigattogozaimasu ❤️
Well said!
@silversaver888...
oh Wes - you are the epitome of calm. hehehe you bring me my calm every time you visit. LOL I viewed that gif as you coming to the table with me! LOL and hoping that we can all chat about the issues.
lets keep hoping :)
@dreemsteem...
We take our:
Then we...
Images are mine and created by me. Me, me, me!
@dreemsteem...
Yep... pretty much!
I just want to thank @acidyo and anyone else taking the time to read this post and offer any suggestions / advice for @deraaa
It is her birthday on Monday and this has been eating her up, not to mention affecting her college. She is having her final exams, one today and another tomorrow.
As @dreemsteem says she needs this to live.
Thank you everyone for helping, it is so much appreciated.
Well she's definitely got some bigger guys helping now! and if we can get the whales with the dispute to just call for a bit of a ceasefire until something else is worked out - that would be great!
Marky says he's not auto-downvoting. So then my suggestion is - if xeldal is upvoting a good post, then maybe he can just leave that upvote stand, and simply use his downvote where he thinks it deserves it! I think that's a win/win/win/win for all!
Waiting to hear what he will say :)
That would make my day and yes be a win 4 all!
Thanks for pointing that out, Ed! Happy birthday @deraaa and I wish you all the best with your exams! Try not to allow this situation to distract you when writing your exams! I know that's easier said than done though!
May I join you, Ed and @dreemsteem, in thanking everybody who is willing to help! I hope that will at least give @deraaa enough peace of mind to the extent where she can focus on her exams...knowing she has the support and that she is not alone!
Thank you so much !!! I did talk to Ed and Dreem about it and that gave me peace of mind. So I am totally not distracted. I wrote my paper today with a clear head (and full brains). Hehe. I am so grateful, And thank you. One more year of life is something to be grateful for!!
That's great to hear! That means you're going to have good results👍!
Yes!!
Thank you Jaco 😁
Thank you Tengo!!! ❤️❤️
😉👍
Thank you so much Dreemie ❤️, for being bold enough to speak on behalf of Deraa and other people who have been affected so far. Hopefully this long negative issue will get sorted out. Sincerely I admire your courage. Thanks for all you do for us!
hi you :) its been too long since I've seen your beautiful face hehehe hope you are well!!!
and I love deraaa, love Hive, and love harmony. Whatever I can to do advance those things - I'm happy to do. thanks for loving on her. She has a few comments in this comment section - if you'd like to upvote them - I think that would help her so much! and we'll make sure we do all we can for her 😍
Smiles 😊...I have been fine Dreemie and yes, you will start seeing my beautiful face henceforth 🤦... Don't mind me, I have no reason.. I guess laziness.. hahaha 😂😂
Yes for Deraa, I love her as well, I love hive too, anything to put her back to her feet and cause her smile again and continue her quality blogging, I am in for that. I have upvoted her comments as well ✅😇
Thank you so much Sis. This means a lot to me.
Uwc my darling ❤️
maybe it's not laziness - maybe it's just that season.
there are times when we are just really burdened by a lot.. and the last thing we can do is write with joy. you know?
honestly - life is hard. i'm glad that you're coming back! but make sure it's YOU wanting it - and not any pressure or guilt pushing you here. you know? take your time and find your pace and come back whenever you're ready!
you know you always have a home :)
Your words are so soothing and you know what, you spoke as if you live here in my home and understand the things I have been battling with. However, I am not coming back because of anyone or anything, I am just ready to be back.
Just this morning, I was chatting with a fellow dreemer telling him that I have missed a lot in dreemport and I am ready to catch up with whatever I have missed.. hehehe
This is so sweet of you
Exceptional being you are ❤️
I want to thank you, @dreemsteem, for taking a stance and addressing this matter in the way you do! I would not know what advice to give or how to handle this situation as I have not encountered something like this before!
Here I was all the time, thinking that everything is positive and everybody is supportive of talented writers. I find this quite disturbing to say the least!
But I take my hat off to you for the support that you are giving to @deraaa and for the way you are handling the situation. I am also grateful (and glad) to see other "big names" (I'm not all that familiar with everybody though) who are stepping forward and being willing to discuss the matter and provide assistance! That is very encouraging!
I'm happy to do my part, and if everyone joins along - calmly, politely, respectfully - and really just wants to do better for Hive - i think it can happen.
some neat ideas are forming already - so we'll see what comes of it! in the meantime, hopefully @deraaa has some nice upvotes on comments (and the liquid rewards of this post) to help in the interim! :)
thanks for your support Jaco - and I'm sure that if we're all willing to keep growing - things will keep getting smoother, better, stronger for us all. (IF we're ALL willing to keep growing... that's the key hehe)
I see that she is getting some nice upvotes in the comments! That's awesome! I'll keep an eye on the comments and try to do my part as well as good as I can!
I agree! I believe that is what we all are striving for, isn't it?
I just wanted to say.. its been a few days since I have noticed a person come into the LeoFinance discord server, and ask about why their shit is being downvoted (By marky) .. It is pretty sad to see how consistently new people were coming into the leo discord and asking about why their experience is being ruined.
But communication is where it begins, and as long as we can do that peacefully - we'll figure it out.
Thanks so much for adding your voice to the mix. and thanks for keeping the peace too :)
Thanks for making the post.. I hope some day people wont be such dicks to each other, as well as stop acting like cancerous parasites.
For @deraaa 👋🤘
Arigattogozaimasu!!!
Yup. It's a silly situation that hardly makes sense.
sigh. indeed.
but - i got a lot of cool ideas today in private dm! so... i'll see if we can come up with a solution that is for the community by the community.
we'll see.. always we'll see hahahaha
It's good to see what I'd consider to be a productive approach to bringing this to light.
Not easy tackling these things.
Even one step forward is further than before.
We'll see.
I agree... lots of people have been surprised that this didn't dissolve into a massive debate. but I really do think (call me naive) that if people just take a breath and come into discussions willing to talk.... things CAN be accomplished!
and always nice to see you hehehee
I've always taken the position things can be settled with words. It's hard to say things some might not want to hear though, in a way they'll at least listen, especially if things are already heated. It's backfired on me so many times I'm both hardened and discouraged at the same time. Pobody's nerfect.
yep - we'll always see. lol
time will tell.
Try to stay focused.
me gots the post ready
no idea if it will make a bit of difference.
but i did my part. if it works. coolio.
if teh community doesn't like it - i shall happily step aside and let the talks convene for the next 9 months LOL
Been waiting. Very curious to see what you've all come up with.
You are admirable Dreemie. It is so important what you are doing here, really. And it's very unfortunate that this is happening to @deraaa and who knows how many others.
Deraaa has always made an effort in Hive, she writes from the heart, so it is very unfair that the "system" discourages people like her.
I sincerely hope there will be a solution to this soon. I know she needs this to finish her studies. And she is one of the good Hivers.
Thank you so much Sis, and for your support, I am absolutely grateful. I thank you so much!!!
🤗😊💕
!HUG
I sent 1.0 HUG on behalf of @coquicoin.
(1/2)
It happened to me, and I really didn't understand why. I was intrigued by what happened and I was surprised because my publication did not contain plagiarism, the truth is that I am proud of it. I started to investigate and they told me about the whale war, I wanted to talk to them, but they told me there was nothing to do. So I remained calm, but I do not deny that it caused me discomfort.
Also. Fuck politics. And fighting over money.
Anyone wanna make some cool stuff?
"Fuck politics."
Something's telling me things are only getting started and I hope I'm wrong this time, because it gets to be so, fucking, lame.
Hoping to see this particular issue, solved. Might turn into a million other things though, causing loss of focus, then leading nowhere. Been to a few of those picnics...
I'll watch.
I'm going to extricate myself gently and make art, literature and music that, hopefully, inspires some more personal reflection and, hopefully again, even some small change in individuals.
Because that's where I think all of the problems lie.
Us. :/
Peaceful Sunday, fellow traveler. <3
Walking the walk.
Walking along beside you sometimes to the back left and often lost in the woods
I smell something dead in the woods.
You think that's something dead in the woods you're smelling?
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms...
Henry David Thoreau
As long as it's not your passion all good. 👣
i stopped watching
lol
i didn't even know it was still happening cuz i was busy building lol
solved... nah. highly doubt it.
but some respite maybe? perhaps.
and i see it turning into a million other things - but the problem is clearly stated as is.
whales need to hit whales. not newbies.
we are told to suck it up when we get downvotes. then the same is true for whales.
and a $42 downvote? i cannot even imagine that on my account. but my account is also worth $4000. not $1,000,000 (or whatever.)
a $42 downvote for a whale still doesn't compare to a consistent $2 downvote for an account that can live on $50 a month. no way. not the same.
stop the collateral damage and focus on settling the dispute with whales. you don't get to yell louder and hit more people just because you can. if you're known for helping people - help people. don't tell us that you're justified in hurting others cuz one person is hurting you.
either way. like i said - stopped watching. will post tonight. and then will continue or halt - based on community. and i shall have UTTER peace in either decision :)
I don't stop watching because knowing is part of doing. Can't do a damn thing if you don't know what you're talking about, even though what you say will be converted into something else anyway, but that still doesn't stop me or scare me away.
Some days I feel like I can't build. The community I built around my work is nearly all gone, it seems. Outside forces beyond my control are making it difficult to do business here. So why should I bother...
It is a problem. Becomes an even bigger problem when that line that doesn't need to be there gets jammed down the middle and crammed down everyone's throat. You are not contributing to that but, as someone who's watching, I did see some "they". If I can't speak without becoming a "them", without anyone asking how I truly feel, then I have nothing to contribute, no matter how much I care to see this problem go away. And I don't feel like being smeared, dragged through the mud, thrown under the bus, or once again made out to be a lesser human by some of the people involved, though I already know it's happening, because I watch.
The collateral damage you speak of extends beyond the painfully obvious. You're in a position where you can still speak, so go ahead and do it. I'll watch. If I can help, I'll help. But I'm not going to waste my time spinning my tires knowing from experience where it'll put me.
I do get the point, @dreemsteem. 100%
ughhhhhhhhh the pain of the "ea" in my name!!! LOL
and yes - i dont mean i ignore... but i do mean I FOCUS (as you so deftly continued to remind people to NOT lose that focus)
at some point - you just have to know when watching is just a waste of time. hehehe
i just posted... and some of what you're saying here - you'll see exactly in the "personal note" at the top of the post - i feel you dawg. lol
and I love Hive -i love being here. and I love building here - but I also have a place that is my own. under my control. that is not able to be affected by outside forces.
for me - that is what i needed. after watching 3 of my projects die with a platform when IT imploded - I said nope -never again.
so i'm here - and i'm invested as much as i can be. but i'm all in for my own project that will undoubtedly help Hive as it grows - but will also be protected from an self-induced implosions. i think its the balance i was finally looking for. i'm so much better now :)
I've come to expect and can even thrive in the chaos that is a decentralized arena. I don't need control. Those needing control create the issues in most cases. Especially when they don't just up and use what they're in control of, which is themselves, to build something they can be in control of, if that's what they desire. Some of the people that have issues boast about the big projects they have lined up, claiming they'll solve issues, but years later no signs of progress as they sit in the comment sections using the same script eventually leading to the same claims that don't yield results.
I'm glad to hear you're doing what you want, how you want to do it. That's what this is supposed to be about.
hahaha you just updated - the pain is soothed. LOL
Told you. I watch. LOL
HAHAHAHA
ok that post took too long to write. hahaha i'm logging off here for the night and will catch up with the comments tomorrow - be good to yourself!
sweet dreems and deep sleeps.
look at all those lovely little ee's :)
Cool stuff? What do you mean?
I mean write beautiful stories like the love story about the Geisha, of yours, that I read earlier this evening.
You're a good writer. You have talent. If the downvotes upset you (and I know full well how much effort it takes to write a story like that... and it's a lot of effort and time, so that sucks but it isn't personal) and are not discussed with you in person so that you can change why you are receiving them, then I only see a couple of choices right now.
Logically.
If you want to look after yourself and not waste precious time. And not give up writing (please).
But it's best you give that some thought and maybe consider three options you can come up with, to deal with this situation. Just to learn and grow a bit. Because this is life. And it's a good opportunity for you to learn more stuff.
What I would not do is believe everything you hear about anyone, on the internet of amazing things. Or in actual life either. Unless you hear it directly from that person yourself.
Be smart. Be strong. Take care of yourself. You've got this. 💥
And you are a good writer.
I am just seeing this comment and trying to place "Geisha"😂😂😂😂. Did you somehow mention those three options and I missed them?
Truth is, I always try never to be clouded by opinions from others especially when it is from people. Even if they have the evidence, I'd like to see for myself because Mr. A's story would always be different from Mr. B's. As for growth, I really look forward to learning something everyday. The main reason I am stuck on hive has a lot to do with how it has helped me grow as a person. It is not everyday you find something like this. I really appreciate you!!
Hey you :)
I don't listen to anyone's story unless it's directly from them these days :) Too much ego and misunderstanding in the world already.
It's an older one. I don't remember the name. Sorry. I rarely remember names :/ Or dates so well either.
I was skimming to check your content, after things came to a head, because I remembered your writing and have always enjoyed it.
It's a few weeks back with a pink flower as the featured image. A "discarded" woman who finds the love that's been waiting for her patiently all these years. Very beautiful 🌹
Oh. Bai Li Mei!!! Thank you very much. And I'll remember to poke you should I need it.
Yessssss!
Oh... I mean poke me when I "forget" and fall asleep again, please!
We support each other in staying awake and progressing. The "shadow" is sneaky, sneaky!
Stay you. A lover and a peaceful warrior. We need you, please. ❤️
@themarkymark
So no one is talking about project hawk, beetoons, and tdtv?
Plus alot of counter votes and putting good guys to dust, wiping out other side's curations and autovotes?
Our dog is dog and their dog is tommy!
Don't think anyone wants to be bothered with anything that doesn't relate to their rewards.
Fat Gandalf
You know the reference? It goes with the deadpool theme I'm doing.
Sure, but my magic word is 'Calorie-be-gone`
Wow I commend you for being brave and coming up with this post. I got wind of this upvote/downvote war when one of my posts suddenly got upvoted by xeldal out of the blue then downvoted by the other. I was like, wth happened?!? I commented on the posts of those who downvoted and only a trail acct responded to me and that's how I found out what was going on.
Indeed us little people are the ones who always get caught in such whale battles. I can definitely relate with deraaa. If only all dolphins/whales are as considerate as you more people will stay on Hive.
Unfortunately generally it's the toxicity of some of those who hold the "responsibility" (whales, dolphins, community admins/mods, curators, etc.) around here that causes people to leave Hive or treat it like it's not worth posting on that much anymore. Gone are the non-bias support accts who are really more of encouragers for new or old people to continue writing here. Gone are the days when posting was still fun/enjoyable.
Some of my other writing friends have already stopped writing here and yet I still write hoping it will change for the better. Alas, it's been years and here we are, still seeing toxic behavior. Oh well. Hope something starts changing now that you've called them out. Hopefully their "group members" would also be informed because of this post. 🙂
For the record on this post if anyone questions later...
I just received the rewards for this.
sending liquid to @deraaa
I can't sent her HP - and told her I would only send liquid, but seems wrong for me to benefit even from the HP. I'm going to send her the HP as liquid Hive
Happy birthday @deraaa! This isn't really from me - but from the community and everyone who upvoted! so... thank them! hehehe
Thank you so much Dreem!!! I received it. Thank you so much!!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
you're more than welcome for my part! hehehe
#LiveAndLetLive. If you can't say something nice don't say anything.
This is the same topic that I highlighted extensively years ago when I was the target of the deliberate downvoting to zero (and I still am if I take the time a lot of the time if I make posts on Hive) - in general, I tend to reach the top of trending regularly and have also been either the top or among the top profiles on other uncensored platforms (that don't have rewards pools) - so the argument being used in these comments that the downvoting applies only to posts that are of no value is provably false in many cases.
Hive and Steem before it distribute rewards based on subjective valuation of stakeholders and they are not all going to agree - this is a given. However, it is clear from the comments here and others going back years, that several of the larger stakeholders have designated 'certain accounts' as 'being of no value', regardless of how many people disagree, speak out or take action to try to counter the decision. It is quite obvious to many of us that these 'accounts of no value' that regularly get upvoted to a high degree tend to share a common theme - they are politically oriented and often exposing information that gets censored elsewhere (regardless of how accurate the information is). An IQ of about 80 should be all that's needed to understand that this looks and feels like attempts at deliberate censorship, within the confines of what the rules on Hive allow - whether it is or is not. As many have repeatedly pointed out (often before leaving Hive forever), this is just a mirror of the behaviour of FB/Twitter information control teams and relegates Hive to a failure when it comes to offering a true improvement over Web 2.0 in terms of freedom of information and equality of treatment (read: respect for the users).
It's ironic to read @acidyo talking about how maybe we need 'a list of these posts' to try to counter the problems, since it was him and only him who publicly derided the website I coded to provide exactly this information during the last period that he and others were nuking my account and contributing to the problem here. I am glad to read he is siding with the community at this time.
For reference, you can always view the downvoting behaviour on Hive in the Untrending Report on Hive Alive. I will be updating it soon to not only add new features, but to also output regular posts to the blockchain to expose exactly the kinds of patterns that the OP here is rightly annoyed by.
Ultimately, whether you like it or not, Hive (Steem) was designed by anarcho capitalists and it works best when it is used in alignment with that philosophy. If you think differently then I ask you to open your mind and reassess, because the logic of the system is 100% clear and you will always experience reduced friction when people stop trying to dominate the behaviours of others. The domination usually begins when someone thinks they know best and have the 'duty' to 'protect' the community, without considering that maybe there is something they are missing in their assessment (or alternatively where they know very well what they are doing and are deliberately trying to derail a topic or speaker).
On the topic of @themarkymark downvoting @xeldal and vice versa - I have yet to meet anyone who knows the identity of Xeldal. Xeldal has always upvoted content that, from my perspective, bring important information to light that is censored elsewhere because it can actually serve humanity by removing scumbags from positions of power. The majority of people who produce such content already left Hive due to the constant downvoting and the ones who are left don't bother to write comments for the same reason - as it is really a waste of their time. So the downvoters created a situation where these content creators (some of whom have millions of followers elsewhere) end up stopping engaging here, which the downvoters then use as extra justification for their downvoting.
There's always the possibility that Xeldal is controlled by people like marky and used as justification for downvoting certain accounts/topics to zero.
Hey @ura-soul. One thing at a time dude. Try to stay focused. A lot of people want to see this one resolved.
Not the same as your case at all but not surprised you're trying to weasel yourself in here.
I stand by the downvotes of "influencers with millions of followers elsewhere" who did nothing for years and literally no one here cared about consuming their content neither which was evident. I've commented way too many times to them directly about the issue I saw with them getting away with so much stake for so little gain towards our ecosystem so not going to repeat myself again but even there I mostly just lowered the rewards so the upvoters got the hint. Some retaliated for a while and some took it further because they feel the need to get their way through by any means but compared to these users here now receiving downvotes the community actually cares and wants to support them. Must feel weird when regular users without a big following outside get more love than your fake influencers but that's what makes Hive special, your history and actions on chain matter and will get you further than whatever web2 brand you may have gotten somewhere in one way or another.
Most of my words here were on the topic of downvoting and the conflicts that originate in the process, plus specifically about xeldal and marky - so I don't feel the use of the word 'weasel' is accurate or helpful. I have stopped posting on Hive myself for now, so it is hardly as if I am attempting to gain anything for myself.
Maybe you were not aware of much of the informationwar and deepdive community activity on Steem, but prior to Hive a variety of well known people came to participate and engage from time to time and would do again - plus many others that I know of personally and who have never yet posted on Hive. I am not talking about the accounts you are more familiar with on Hive and have downvoted. The more they feel wrongly targeted, the more they leave - it's the same as in pretty much everyone else's case, except they have typically already experienced very bad abuse by corporations and corrupt governments prior to experiencing this blockchain (so they are less likely to want to engage to solve the problem and more likely to just see the situation as a tired continuation of the norm of web 2).
There was actually a continually active community on Steem and in the related Discords, going 24 hours per day, globally. Now they are not here at all and all that is left is the remnants and a small number of the people you seem to be referring to as the 'million follower accounts'.
These accounts are in no way 'mine' and for the most part I don't personally value them above many other creators. If higher quality creators for these topics came to Hive then I would favour them and upvote them, but these are people who win journalism awards etc. and who tend to move only in the largest networks because it is inefficient for them not to. Personally, I would much rather see organic community here, working and sharing on topics to try to improve the world - that is literally my only interest. However, this simply won't happen against a backdrop of troll downvotes and hard headed decision making that goes against all principles of successful marketing.
I personally hate the idea of the plastic faced 'have a nice day' promotions people out in the world, but there is a reason why they exist - because despite a few assholes getting away with bad things due to the 'friendliness', these cases are massively outweighed by the positive benefits. Translating this to Hive means erring on the side of friendliness instead of defaulting to punishment, control and overpowering.
As I have said many times, it is very well established that the sub and unconscious programming that constitutes much of the 'human condition' includes a bias towards 'the fear of losing out' - whereby people will act and react far more energetically against the thought of losing something than they will to the excitement of gaining something. Far more people will reject Hive through seeing downvoting of the kind that has been common for a while than will be appreciative of the 'benefits' of the downvoting - it's just that there is no scientific way to measure them here, so they are an unknown to all but those people who actively meet and engage with them outside of Hive.
That's fine, but it is your own subjective view. It is rare for any subjective view to be held as a full consensus within a community. When spoken in the context of a stake based community that reaches consensus, your words start to feel a lot like a dictator - whether you realise or not. I am not saying that people who engage the community should not be rewarded more than those who don't - I am simply pointing out that whether someone chooses to align on that idea or not is entirely up to their own free will and it is not in the spirit of community or freedom to try to force them to comply with you.
Additionally, as already highlighted, in many cases the people who don't engage (and who may have large audiences) actually would engage heavily on Hive and promote Hive if they felt that they were being supported and treated fairly. Again, this is a determination that is subjective and it helps to understand that bigger social picture that affects such people - but it is an arena that few seem to understand who are not also part of it.
N.B. This topic is nothing new. I am largely commenting on this topic here because it involves the specific disruption of accounts favoured by a stakeholder who has interest in some of the specific topics I am supportive of. Every action here can create a chain of events that draw in ever more vested stakeholders who have something relevant to add.
I've said it many times, "influencers" of all sizes and content are welcome and often showered in rewards by either random stakeholders or those who value their content and activity outside of Hive specifically. I'm also okay with that, the so called "honeymoon" period, but once months and years go by, the accounts continuously take and certain stakeholders give but there's no visible engagement and consumption occurring on top of no attempts by these influencers to bring in people or share links to attempt to bring in their following here where the platform incentivizes it in so many ways compared to web2 and they've been earning the stake to properly value their followers and engageful comments with upvotes, whether they do it personally or have help doing so. Then what is the point to continuously shower them with rewards, get mad if someone feels that value is better spent elsewhere, literally anywhere and get into these kind of games?
There's many accounts of these examples, at what point are we going to think it's justified they've earned anywhere from 10-100k hp over the years without giving close to anything back except for the few comments complaining how they're getting downvoted eventually? Are we still continuing to shower them with stake and rewards in hopes they'll eventually give a shit? Or are they just so used to adrevenue they think it's the same thing here?
I'm pretty sure I'm not in the wrong here and many in the community have been of the same mindset over the years, it's not like I just decide to randomly downvote posts that may bring value to the ecosystem, that'd be pretty counterproductive to all my other activities on this chain. I'm also pretty sure that I'm not just surrounded by yes-men who just go along and agree with all my opinions and actions and I'm not someone to ignore those who criticize them. I've even made posts asking the opinions of others using some of these accounts as examples and at the same time ignored some of them who do bother to at least be a little active even if they're rewards are still over the top imo.
At some point it just feels like these influencers have been brought in with the promise that they'll get rewards no matter what and the retaliation that occurs seems to ignore any attempts at understanding why some feel the rewards aren't warranted longterm. It's like they completely ignore reason but want to keep treating this platform as proof of stake rather than what it is, want to keep making it look like Steem or Blurt rather than let others weigh in.
I don't even have anything against the genre and I downvote other similar "placeholder" accounts as well from other niche's I don't think bring value to the ecosystem after they've been tried and left be without downvotes for a long time. If you just keep letting it be it'll quickly become a farmfest with more and more value, i.e. part of the rewardspool being wasted.
If these stakeholders believe some other type of content isn't worth it neither then be my guest to downvote and lower the rewards, but don't do it out of retaliation or vendetta, do it in terms of protecting your stake and valuing the inflation that's going out. Very few are using their downvotes like that because there's no incentives of doing so that directly benefit them but some of us are here for the long term and believe it'll help the ecosystem as a whole.
The most ridiculous part is that any of these influencers would do well here if they actually understood and valued the platform and stake they earned, not just take it for granted or think it's the same as the other shitty platforms they'll eventually get banned from. Most don't seem to understand though and are probably not made aware of the differences by whoever onboards them and promises stuff. Naturally, they're going to have a bad time eventually if they treat it just like any other platform or just as a cashcow as many do.