How "Real" Are We? Does Everything Ultimately Boil Down to Math?

in #philosophy6 years ago (edited)


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Everybody's familiar with the teleporter problem, but for the sake of the few who will be lost going forward if I don't cover it upfront, here goes: Let's say there are two teleporter booths. The inventor demonstrates the technology by climbing into one booth, shutting the door, then emerging from the other.


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He invites you to try, but you want to know how it works first. So he reveals that when he got into the first booth and closed the door, he was destroyed, broken down to his constituent atoms. Then he was reconstituted in the second booth.

People give some very interesting, varied answers when asked about this scenario. For example, does it matter to you whether the second booth uses the broken down atoms from the original "you" to create the copy? Is it really even a copy then, or just something that was taken apart and put back together?

Does it really, truly matter whether the original atoms or different ones are used to create the copy, if the arrangement of those atoms in the copy is identical to the original? Atoms are atoms, right? Many will say that it's not really "you" if the atoms are put back together in the second chamber, but it is really you if you're broken down to atoms for a split second and then immediately reassembled from those same atoms. Isn't that weird? Why do they feel that way?


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I put it to you that our identity is not bound up in the specific atoms we are currently made out of. After all, every seven years our bodies have almost completely rebuilt themselves out of new atoms. So you are made from different atoms now than you were seven years ago. Are you no longer yourself because of it? Of course, that's nonsense. But it means we aren't the atoms we are made of. We are their configuration.

This raised the next topic of discussion. If we are the arrangement of the atoms comprising us (including how it changes over time) then we are information. That arrangement is just information. A perfect description of a human being's atomic structure is, in effect, the essence of that person. Isn't it?


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Does it matter if we're discussing a living creature or inanimate object? Consider the replicator from star trek. If it makes a slice of pie, is that pie "not real"? Was the original slice they recorded into the machine the "real" one and every copy of it the replicators makes is "fake"? Or are all the copies just as real as the original?

I mean, even inside of your body right now, your DNA is busy making copies of itself as part of cell replication. Is the copied DNA fake, but the original was real? The original is a copy too, which originated the same way. Living organisms, at the cellular level, so actively self-copy and self-rejuvenate by piecemeal replacement that it muddies the waters when discussing this hypothetical. Why should it matter whether something is replaced little by little, or all at once?

This led to the next question. How does a perfect description of something differ quantifiably from the thing it's a description of? Wouldn't the most accurate representation/description of any object just be an identical object? Moreover, doesn't it follow that every thing is a perfect description of itself? Similarly, if you simulate something perfectly, is it still just a simulation?


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This brings us to the main question in the article headline. Math is essentially a universal, deprovincialized means of description that exists outside of language and culture. In principle, there is nothing which cannot be mathematically described, so long as it exists.

If everything in existence can be broken down to a mathematical description, and there is no quantifiable difference between a perfect description of something and the thing it's a description of, does it follow that all of reality is basically just math? Which is to say, information describing the properties and relationships of particles, waves and so on.


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Humans have a tough time wrapping our brains around this. Psychological studies performed on children established that from a young age, we have a sentimental notion of the "essence" of something. Even if a child understands that his teddy bear is one of millions of identical mass-manufactured stuffed bears, he will feel that his is special.

When that stuffie, toy, bike or other object becomes worn out and filthy, the child is offered a brand new, identical replacement. But most of the children were unwilling to swap. They had an irrational belief in the specialness of their own toy, stuffie, blanket or whatever.


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Adults are not exempt from this effect, developing similar sentimental feelings about their car. Perhaps attributable to how our cars pick up dents and wear that make them unique from others that rolled off the same assembly line? But then, that's true of humans too, isn't it?

We don't start out life with different consciousness. Babies don't have opinions, or distinct personalities. That stuff is accumulated with age and experience, as our interactions with the world shape us into who we are. Like how touching one object to another unavoidably causes it to pick up some of the scent, flavor or other residual qualities.


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Try to think of even one element of your personality which was not shaped by past experience. Every individual is basically a remix of all the other people they interacted with, having adopted elements of other personalities that they liked.

Having called into question whether we exist in the material sense as anything other than information, does this not also call into question how "real" our personalities are? If they are just assembled from the experiences we unavoidably have as we move through life, rather than being something that exists from birth or which we invent arbitrarily, I mean.

The more you dig into reality, and in particular the notion of "self", the more it comes apart and evaporates in your hands...as if it was never anything at all to begin with. I digress though. Practical concerns beckon, and there are only so many hours in the day. :)


Stay Cozy!

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Absolutely we are all nurtured by the experiences and interactions we have... Consciousness doesn't remain the same.. And that we become unique with time... Thanks for the enlightenment bro...

I’ve always found it interesting that everything in a computer program is generated by 1s and 0s and yet everything in our reality is made of circles and lines. “As above, so below”

Indeed, we are the people we are today because of our previous experiences. and inevitably our personalities were obtained from people we've come across in Life and chose to emulate. I concur with you that our personalities were gained as we evolved through our life experiences.

Yeah that's why we have so many psychopath maniac killers who decided that our reality is fake and they can kill whoever they want.

The case of identical twins and one may ask who is the original and the copy. I have seen my double ganger, though we look alike but the configuration differs.

I really like the subject of moral ethics that mixes with the teleporter. Beyond that we are only atoms, the discussions in the near or distant future where the means of transport begin to talk about the teleporter as "the greatest genocide machine in history", oh man. At last we will be in Blade Runner. "Nobody will be what he was".

After all, every seven years our bodies have almost completely rebuilt themselves out of new atoms. So you are made from different atoms now than you were seven years ago.

That’s a great point and I agree! But what about our memories? Our personalities as you mentioned? About what we have already learned?...
Great article though!

http://www.human-memory.net/processes_storage.html

Memories are information stored in the brain as patterns of strong and weak neuronal connections. The brain is constantly rebuilding itself like the rest of the body, albeit much more slowly. This process of rebuilding is precise enough that memories aren't lost in the process.

Very interesting. This would in theory also mean we wouldn’t have to learn enything anymore by going to schools since all information could be programmed to our brain. We wouldn’t have to go to school anymore. Just one press of a button and we would know everything. It sounds exciting, but I really don’t like this idea when it comes to humans since it would possibly drive us insane so much information.

The architecture of the brain is extremely exotic. It's recognizably computer-like, but different from any computer humans have ever built. Recent progress has been made decoding how the brain stores moving images, so that we can even extract and play them back as movies.

However understanding the "file system" of the brain well enough to write data to it is a much harder problem that is decades or even a century off. Some humility is necessary when discussing neuroscience, because the human brain is the most complex object known to exist.

And this brings us to the topic that is teleportation possible ?
In order for a human to teleport, each person will need to be represented in transferable data. The transferable data of a human would be represented by the DNA pairs that make up each cell.
The total data for each human cell was calculated as about 10 billion bits and one cell contains enough information to replicate any other type of cell in the body. To rebuild a person, one must know the full information of the traveler’s brain as well, which brings the number of total information content to about 2 followed by 42 or something zeroes. How about that huh ?
And scientists have said that it would take some lakhs of crores years to transfer data alone assuming the bandwidth used is 29.5 to 30 gigahertz.

I think Heisenberg's uncertainty principle may enter into this so your copy is not actually a perfect copy. This is because we cannot map exactly where every atom is at a specific time. We might get something a bit like what happened to Michael Keaton in Multiplicity!

Very compelling point! I will have to think about that.

Every individual is basically a remix of all the other people they interacted with, having adopted elements of other personalities that they liked.

absolutely when we like something about others personality we try to copy that
and it then it becomes a part of our life

Wayyyy to deep for me. I actually love the sentimental side of humans. Asking these questions simply pave way for other questions that way eventually depress me. We can't after all simply accept that we're big balls of information

Try to think of even one element of your personality which was not shaped by past experience. Every individual is basically a remix of all the other people they interacted with, having adopted elements of other personalities that they liked.

This got to me.... We are a simple total of the people we meet and interact with.... The Power of influence is like an electric current.

It's strong to sway even in our conscious and unconscious state....

This is more reason I always try to surround myself with people that would rub off positivity in me.

So is there a real "you", that is original? Or are you made up of little pieces of other peoples' personalities, like how a quilt is made up from pieces of other blankets?

Haha... Not to the extreme anyways.

Right from childhood, we've been experiencing contact, and interaction with people.

Apart from the books we read on our own. Our imaginations, actions are fueled by what we see others do, act and behave.

I stand to be corrected. Even the books are written by people.

In essence. We are simple total of PEOPLE we've had contacts with directly or in directly.

The original me is the me that's a total of everything that has came in contact with me 😁😁
Best regards

it is very difficult to find one element of personality separate from the formation of the past. I have tried it and got a reality that I am now is an accumulation of a transformed past into a maturity. But the basic shape is almost the same.

Thought provoking, it left me thinking deep....

"But it means we aren't the atoms we are made of. We are their configuration.

A perfect description of a human being's atomic structure is, in effect, the essence of that person. Isn't it?"

The essence is what defines everything, it's what gives meaning to life, the essence is humanity. Well done for this thought provoking piece @alexbeyman

When that stuffie, toy, bike or other object becomes worn out and filthy, the child is offered a brand new, identical replacement.But none of the children were willing to swap.They had an irrational belief in the specialness of their own toy, stuffie, blanket or whatever.

the sentimental idea may be quite dominant for people with melancholy personality. However, a person with a sanguine character is more likely to forget the past and immediately form a future personality that is indifferent to the essence of something.

I don't think that the universe in it self is "made of" just math, but that math is the most powerful language we've been able to come up with to describe it.@alexbeyman

Is a perfect description of something quantifiably different from the thing it's a description of?

What about a perfect simulation of a real object. Is the simulation of it "less real"?

Virtual reality trumps physical reality because you can't describe concepts like math using atoms but you can fully describe atoms using math. You can create infinity and continuums with math but cannot render these concepts in physical pixelated reality. Pixelated reality on the other hand is fully describable by math. Logically, even if we are in a simulation created by another physical entity, their true reality must also be virtual.

What about the 21 grams we lose when we die, man?

Just kidding. But on a less whimsical note, don't you think there is something unique that happens when matter is organized just right (like our brains/bodies) to become aware of itself? What if as we see/hear/perceive reality around us and think about it, the energy of that influences the reality itself?

It sounds a bit new-agey and ridiculous, but there may be something to the energy of our focused thoughts affecting reality in a measurable way.

And for the record, I would not use transporter technology ala Star Trek, should that somehow become a thing. I'd be the old, cantankerous Dr. McCoy, avoiding the transporter at all costs. Too many bits of me that might get reassembled out of sequence, and we can't have that.

Wow!
That's something to think about.
In all honesty, we are a sun total of all our experiences.
But let's think about it like that.
Two brothers, in contact with the same people and experiencing the same things turn out to have different personalities. So there is something unique in there, there is always a real you imo

Unless they share one body, they still have different experiences. On the other hand, many studies of twins separated at birth have shown odd synchronicity in how they lived out their lives.

I don't know what else to tell you..
Maybe it is that simple

I think it's even possible for joined twins to have different life experiences. Since we are humans, it's likely for both of them to not be treated equally, and this can lead to an evolution of distinct personalities.

That is pretty much the Theseus paradox

I think your thinking is very good for this. Everyone is the same but there are different from the side of each view. As long as we live must have different circumstances also with others. Reality of one's life we ​​see the same, but the burden of life is different. The heavier the burden of a person's life the more different the ions will come out, that is, for example. Thank you @alexbeyman for sharing my knowledge which is very useful for me.

Computer program is such thing which is not just like our memory it mdmorise all the stuff in the form of 0s and1s that is binary language ...
It had abrubtly change our personalities to a top level which could have not possible by any other thing..
I can that telepoter has given a new shape to our world...

Math is very difficult for me. But I like Science. You are a really great man. Thanks, @alexbeyman

One thing we must also remember, that humans not only have a rough body itself, but also there is a spirit that inhabits it. The physical body can indeed be merged into the atoms mathematically. But the spirit still can not be broken into small particles. The spirit is a different body dimension of existence. The post is very tiring to read alex. I rolled over and over again to read it.

"but also there is a spirit that inhabits it"

I don't think that's true.

Indeed this thing if extended will come back on our respective perspectives. I will give an easy description. What do you think about the dream world? The dream world is a very mysterious area of ​​the spirit and can not be measured mathematically. You can read it on @blackkout 's post about a dream that has several episodes. I got a lot of enlightenment there.

"What do you think about the dream world?"

I think it's something our brain does while unconscious, in order to organize and store experiences we had during the day.

Yes, that is one of the causes of dreams. For us (sorry), dreams are also something that gives us clues about what we should do or what we should avoid. Of course with a more in-depth study of the dream itself. Dreams are not just a work of the brain in the unconscious.

"Dreams are not just a work of the brain in the unconscious."

Yes they are.

I mean, even inside of your body right now, your DNA is busy making copies of itself as part of cell replication. Is the copied DNA fake, but the original was real? The original is a copy too, which originated the same way. Living organisms, at the cellular level, so actively self-copy and self-rejuvenate by piecemeal replacement that it muddies the waters when discussing this hypothetical. Why should it matter whether something is replaced little by little, or all at once?

Change needs time ...

The multiverse is Information that appearsto us as an illusion of matter and energy.