It's been quite a while since the previous SoulKeep Rewards proposal passed and the scope and mechanisms of the game as well as the ownership structure have changed significantly over that time. While we're very excited to see the SoulKeep game launch and are looking forward to exploring the partnership potential between the SPS DAO, Splinterlands and SoulKeep, it's important to ensure that SPS distribution is handled in a transparent and accurate manner according to a DAO approved proposal.
The previous proposal allocated SPS rewards for SoulKeep while requiring players to stake SPS specifically into the SoulKeep game and was structured similarly to Splinterlands ranked rewards. During the course of development, it became clear that this structure didn't work well for SoulKeep and led to a poor user experience, so the Double Coconut team went in a different direction which ultimately led to the tournament structure that we see today. It's important for the SPS DAO and Double Coconut to find another way to ensure value returns to the SPS token without hindering SoulKeep's ability to attract new players.
If this proposal passes, it will override the previous proposal's guidelines for SoulKeep to require exclusive SPS staking and instead require Double Coconut to implement considerable DEC burns into SoulKeep's monetization strategy. The Double Coconut team will have the freedom to determine the allocated rewards structure for SoulKeep as they see fit to attract new players and grow the game. The one million SPS per month allocation will remain unchanged.
I've reached out to David Fox, the CEO of Double Coconut, and he is in agreement with the spirit of this proposal and is willing to ensure that DEC burns are implemented into SoulKeep revenue streams as quickly and efficiently as possible. This should ensure new users are not burdened by SPS staking requirements while also returning a steady stream of value to the SPS token over time.
Update 6/27/24:
I have spoken to David again and he is in agreement to build a monetization strategy into SoulKeep for 50% of DEC to be burned and 50% of DEC to be kept as revenue for the company should this proposal pass.
Update 7/1/24:
The DEC burns will be implemented within a week of the proposal passing, even if they have to be done manually at first.
David here, CEO of Double Coconut. A few points which hopefully can clarify our position and thinking:
a) Above all: Apologies about not fully honoring the previous proposal -- was definitely an oversight on our end. There was certainly no intent to deceive anyone. Not an excuse, but a lot of time had passed since that proposal and when we returned to work in serious manner on the game we were focused on shipping it and making it "work" on both a fun and business level.
b) Clayboyn fully consulted with us on the proposal, along with other key stakeholders from SPL. He is graciously helping to initiate the proposal process to ensure it is quick and smooth.
c) We're not able to jump in and respond as much as we like all the time, but we are listening closely to everything posted in Discord and all problems / suggestions posted via our support portal. Hopefully those of you who play daily have seen how, day by day, we are working far-overtime doing releases to quickly fix the most pressing issues.
d) Ultimately we believe the game has to (and can! and will!) appeal to the "real" mass market, not just SPL insiders, if it is going to break out and be successful. Forcing staking is just horrible UX for a casual game as I think most everyone agrees. So while we can't give an exact number of DEC to burn we will make good on this proposal and will commit to this balance:
i. Burning a good chunk of DEC spent in game to elevate the SPS and DEC ecosystems. We will start with 50%.
ii. Eventually applying some of the revenue spent in the game back into tournament rewards or other rewards, so players benefit too.
iii. Making the business of Soulkeep self-sustaining so that we can continue to focus on hosting, development, design, marketing, and ultimately GROWTH.
Is the balance above going to be easy? Hell no. But we will be transparent with our decisions and truly listen / communicate with those who want to align themselves with our mission and make this game a success.
Hi David,
Please provide a timeline for your team to implement the DEC burning mechanism into Soulkeep. I believe that you are dealing with many projects where project timeline is utmost important. DAO stakeholders want to avoid the uncertainty that comes with SoulKeep to provide a mechanism that are mutual beneficial.
It must be a fixed date and we do not want a range of time. This is not a big request since your team is professional and we already have a built-in DEC burning mechanism in Splinterlands that you can copy and study.
If the proposal passes we will do this immediately... Manually at first, if we need but we will automate quickly thereafter (within a week; when our next release cycle happens).
I am a tower defense maniac. I love them form the bottom of my heart.
But Soulkeep? Eh! I dont get it. In order to progress and also in order to earn rewards, you need to buy tournament tokens to PARTICIPATE in the first place?
So pay to play?
If so, LOL, good luck with that.
If not, then the explanation and tutorial in this one is just the worst ever seen.
Sorry guys, I dont want to be mean and I realy want to like it. But either way, this is kinda failed.
You get one tournament each day fully for free right now.
That clears it up a bit already, thanks.
What does "right now" mean? Will this change in the future?
I'd also like to say that additional entries are cheap at first too! Like, pennies cheap.
I have a question regarding the SPS. You can now rent SPS when playing Splinterlands. Would this be transferred or reflect in Soulkeep? (I am having hard time to find the right word)
For example. if I rented 20k SPS for that week, would Soulkeep also think that my account has 20k SPS or does it just go with the current owned SPS and not the delegated ones?
Also, this one is a feedback as a player of Soulkeep and as a fan of tower defense. The tower's stats page needs a lot of improvement. When I rent a tower, I wanted to know what it does. Does it poison the enemy? Does it slow? Does it have AOE? The current numbers isn't that important because in a tower defense, what's more important is "what happens when tower does this" rather than, "What is the stats of this tower?" For a more simpler example, a player wouldn't really care if the tower has 175 range or 180 range or 195 range because that is not important. All these does tell is, "Oh, it increased range. Cool."
TLDR: The specifics isn't really needed although it is good to see. However, the problem is that "What this tower do" isn't reflected in the stats page in Splinterlands.
On the other hand, the Soulkeep page does this good. The paragraph on what the tower does is properly explained although it's quite vague. I have seen three towers that simply boils down to, "This does AOE damage" which is expressed in three different ways for each tower so that people would be TRICKED that it does something else.
Those are just feedback. Do with it what you want.
After playing the game myself, I think this is going to end up burning a LOT of Dec over time. Ticket costs ramp up quickly already and nobody has even got to league 3 yet. Once you start adding in additional sinks like the Soul Boxes and probably some kinda fatigue removal option I think it should really get going.
Edit to add: Personally I'd really like to see some kind of unlimited play mode. No rewards or souls earned toward league advancement but no fatigue costs either. Some way to practice and learn spells, towers, maps, etc. Maybe like unlimited waves on our current map or something. I think this game has real potential to attract non SPL players. It is a fun game with out the crypto aspect even and I could really see this be more general masses popular.
This is an interesting quote.
.
well if the proposal we voted on hasn't been delivered yet, wouldn't it still be operating on the "distribute SPS for packs held" model?
As I said elsewhere, looks like we are headed to uncharted waters with this vote... better bring a life jacket - just in case :D
Abandon ship!!!
I've made them aware people have requested to stop rewards.
This proposal is my attempt to find a viable solution that works with the model they ended up going with for the game. Basically they're going to need to work in DEC burns for there income streams. I suggested essentially charging more and burning the difference. The previous proposal was designed around a ranked system like Splinterlands has, which doesn't work with the 10 league tournament thing they designed. If they don't work in DEC burns that people feel are worthwhile we would just make a proposal to stop the SPS rewards anyway.
Agree 100%.
Stop rewards until we can see clear numbers. Then vote on something else.
Then start rewards once again.
Allow me to go slightly off-topic here...
So, in a roundabout way, we're admitting that SPS staking requirements are unattractive to new players? I feel like that's one thing people aren't talking about within Splinterlands itself, but I think it's a major reason the game is tanking. Regardless of how much it costs to have hundreds of thousands of SPS staked, just seeing those numbers is off-putting. The fact that they were just doubled for Wild is batshit crazy. The staking requirements (or recommendations or whatever) were meant to increase demand for SPS and help the price, but it does not seem to have worked out that way.
I do see we're back UP to a penny, though. Woo hoo...
SPS is not back up to a penny. SPS is still around 0.8 cents or so.
Yeah, it's just displayed differently and shows up as $.01. I was fooled by that. My bad.
I feel like we already had this discusion.
Its like stating the obvious. Ofc is bad for new players.
The spl sps staking requirement design is really bad.
Ah, okay. I might have missed that. I have dipped in and out in terms of paying attention to what's going on in Splinterlands.
have you still not realized that you are dealing with a bunch of greedy idiots who can do nothing but cheat and lie?
I think if what was originally scoped out, purely single player experience, the SPS earnings would have made a lot more sense. The problem is they aren't using a single player or a pvp setup where there's only rewards for one account. They're using a tournament structure for their prizes and the only way I could really see implementing SPS stake requirements for that would be to gate league access (their leagues are not like Splinterlands ranked leagues) and that would essentially kill the marketability to the "web 2" folks they're trying to reach. Like if you're playing a tower defense game, get to the end of a level, and you don't have the option to advance unless you go learn about web 3 and staking SPS etc, it's a big wall. When it comes to Splinterlands, there are other walls, like card level, skill and then the rewards you earn for winning are multiplied by the SPS stake. It's kind of apples to oranges. The two games are just very different.
Yes, that's true. The games are very different. I like that. I'm not even saying I'm against the staking requirements in Splinterlands. All I was suggesting is that maybe we look at what effect that does have on possible new players when they see such high numbers. Hundreds of thousands of staked SPS, to me, might just deter people from even wanting to try. So I don't even know what I'm getting at. I'm not suggesting anything be changed, I'm just wondering if it's considering that the SPS staking requirements are part of the reason the game doesn't seem to be attracting new players. What good would considering it do? I don't know. Carry on.
So back in 2021, I looked up the tournaments requirements /prizes etc.
Not only did they have collection power requirements, and then later on SPS staked requirements, the prizes were also unattractive if people were to rent. (And the cost of cards were too high.) SPS rentals weren't around back then.
So deck for 8k or so (to be competitive.) SPS for another 4k why not (probably more cause SPS was higher.)
All to compete for a prize of $40 (if first place.)
Or, could just go play MTG: Arena, spend $25 for a chance to win 2.5k. (Probably won't, but in theory, it is possible.)
People in SPL have a dream of profiting by just doing nothing which is mathematically flawed. All the renting, staking ,etc, is just economic manipulation that provides zero value.
If SPL had a better prize structure, people can be motivated to spend.
We're not back up to a penny, it's just displayed with one less decimal point and rounded up. I wonder what will happen if we drop below $.005.
I am struggling to understand why our dao should be involved in another company's game at all...
Because DAO is allocating 1M SPS as rewards for Soulkeep.
well, i believe we are now considering a new proposal to correct the situation, so hopefully all good.
That's good to hear 😀
Don't worry about it lol. 1M of $0 is still $0. Sps is worthless. That 1M is with less than $8k 🤣 atm. In a year from now it’ll probably just be worth $800. So don't stress about it.
i don't know why you downvoted me, or yourself, lol, but our job as sps dao members is to worry about stuff :-)
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @clayboyn!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2024-07-01 19:51 UTC
Another thing, the tournament format is not obvious how to make your cards available. Maybe a link to your SL collection to lock your cards? Also, a way to multi-lock would be much more enjoyable lol
Yea there's some quirks to work out 100% we've been giving them feedback in the Discord server. Feel free to join in if you'd like! Not the best idea to click links on here, but if you know how to get to the Splinterlands Discord server there's a SoulKeep channel and if not you can join on the bottom of the splinterlands website. If you want here's a direct link:
https://discord.com/channels/447924793048825866/1017060574091292803
Is any of this binding? I mean, isn't the 1 million per month for this game from the teams allocation? I know they allowed us to vote on whether to reallocate their funds to the game but really this is the team's allocation that they could have unilaterally decided to use for Soulkeep if they wanted to.
Anyway, I hated the SPS staking requirement for SK. It was way too high for people already here and just having it at all was essentially an insurmountable barrier to entry for any new people we are hoping to attract with a casual game. So if Double Coconut is on board with a way to burn a bunch of DEC without requiring the SPS staking, it's got my vote. Are the details in the discord?
There aren't really much in the way of details at this point. They're in the middle of launching a game and trying to rapidly fix bugs etc. I expressed the concerns to their CEO and made time to discuss it with me and agreed to let me run this proposal. They'll add in the DEC burns if this proposal passes. My suggestion was they should just charge more for things in SoulKeep and burn the extra DEC.
Sounds good to me. It would be wonderful if they fully offset their SPS emissions but I expect that's asking way too much. Anything they can do helps though
Clay, I think this is going to be messy regardless of the vote...
Scenario A: This proposal passes
What are we considering as a measure of success? And over what time period?
What is "a significant amount" of DEC burned?
I guess there is Market fees, Tournament entries, all that stuff?
Are we looking at this as potential for new spellbooks and cross-game marketing?
The success metrics are really fuzzy...
Scenario B: This proposal fails...
So what does this revert to? I believe the rshares formula we approved computes with zero SPS staked... or do we go back to the prior approved one - deliver SPS based on packs held? Or does it nullify everything?
I think it's going to be hard for people to know what they are voting for.
Well Scenario A doesn't really have to be that clearly defined. I suggested they essentially increase the price of things they are designing to add a DEC burn. Tournament tickets, season passes, promos? Whatever, they need a DEC burn. Their CEO said he's willing to work in the DEC burns, so here's a proposal providing us an option to move forward. I don't have a perfect solution for anyone here, just woke up and was met with a bunch of messages complaining about the situation and tried to help us find a solution. If a solution can't be found, I guess we'll figure out what happens from there. I really don't know.
First of all, the proposal should be coming from Double Coconut. It is currently too vague and it should have detailed plan on a reward system that is beneficial for DAO. With the current proposal, Double Coconut can just make 1 DEC burn and DAO have to allocate 1M SPS to Soulkeep monthly. This type of proposal is just open for abuse. Double Coconut can just drag on the implementation, where DAO will still keep paying their users.
The DAO should stop the SPS allocation until Double Coconut implement features that are detailed out in THEIR passed proposal.
Why Double Coconut is so special that DAO can trust them fully to allocate 1 M SPS monthly without implementing anything that is beneficial to DAO? In the meantime, Double Coconut can pay the reward out of their revenue in the game.
Just to make you aware of the update. I spoke to him again today and expressed the desire for transparency in what amounts would be burned. He's agreed to burn 50% of the DEC and I've update the proposal to reflect that.
Yes. That is better but it is even better to have a timeline. If they could not meet the timeline, DAO will stop the SPS rewards. This is not a high ask, in fact they are currently receiving SPS that are not supposed to be issued out.
I would suggest changing the title of the proposal.
Need to see some numbers 1st. It's a must to make sure we don't do anything in the way of user onboarding. SPL is already hard for some users. We need something different. So I'm flexible with making changes. I just want to see some roadmap on what's gonna happen.
Increasing prices and burning extra should be easy to implement fast. It's something good for tokenomics. So I'd probably vote yes.
I've asked if we can work out some details when he gets a chance, keep in mind they're basically in crunch trying to fix all the bugs we're reporting with the launch and process all of that feedback. They're a bit busy, but I'll do my best. Keep in mind, even if this passes, there's nothing stopping another proposal to stop the rewards if we aren't satisfied with the DEC burns.
OK - I'm in ☑️
Yeah because the "Rewards" are very confusing atm lol
I don't understand where is this 1 million SPS a month coming from?
It was approved like 2 years ago to take some portion of what used to be marked as "team funds" and allocate it to the SoulKeep game. It's almost halfway through distribution now... but a couple years worth iirc.
Thank you so no real new inflation compared to before if anything it might be divided out to more people who are actively playing.
A simple fun game, gets a yes for changing the monetization :)
"Forcing staking is just horrible UX for a casual game as I think most everyone agrees."
Thank you so much for acknowledging this! I feel like SPS staking was one of the worst thing to happen to SPL, and I'm glad you recognize how it would turn off most "casual" players.
I'm enjoying the game so far! Wish there was a way to replay previous levels, also that rewards were a little less top heavy as suggestions. I would also love to see a "promotion" that included a new hero to attract new players and give them a reason to "spend". I used to play a lot of gatcha games on cell phone and it was always like "spend at least $50 in the shop within this time limit to receive hero!" or similar. Were the hero's even available in packs? I remember there was supposed to be a very small chance to open them, but I haven't heard of anyone saying they did. Thanks!
lol this company/game/people involved in the decision making is garbage. My 4-weeks of in staking is finally at an end! Deuces. And my parting gift to you all is this advice. GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN. Things can always get worse. This is a 99.99% dead game. Just look at how many people actually vote on these proposals. 1500? No way in heck are there actually 35k active users on this game. More like 1000 users each with 30 multi accounts that they delegate out too. Don’t be the last person holding the bag. Leave that to clayborn, Matt, Dave and the rest of the people who drove this game into the ground. I ignored this advice years ago. Don’t make my mistake.
I feel like you talk trash in every post instead of being constructive at all. If you really hate the game that much then why do you continue to waste your time and try and talk it down. Like get over it already my dude it's going to be ok 🤣
lol I did offer suggestions. No one listened. All they do is get butt hurt instead of looking past it. Who cares how feedback is delivered trash talk or not. If it is true it's true. Get over your hurt feelings lol.
I love checking back in from time to time to warn people and see how right I've been. If I'm wrong I could at least be happy seeing the game succeed but I guess I'll have to setting for being right and this game sucking 😆
Final bit of advice focus on adding and maintaining users!! None of these proposals have addressed any of this. Just distractions and bandaids