Community Proposal #5
This proposal aims to define the terms for fully unlocking soulbound reward cards. Currently the only proposal that has passed related to soulbound reward card usage is that they will be able to be used on land for a DEC burn of 2x the collection power value of the cards with up to 50% of the amount payable in vouchers at a rate of 200 DEC per voucher.
The final cost of fully unlocking these cards should be known before any players spend their tokens for partial usage rights. If this proposal passes, the fees outlined in the previous post will become the final cost for fully unlocking these cards upon the end of the print run. These unlocked reward cards will have no DEC burn value.
Players that have already paid the fee to stake these cards on land before the print run ends will have them immediately unlocked at the end of the print run. Other players that have not already paid the fee to stake these cards on land before the end of the print run will then be able to unlock these cards at the same burn rate.
Way too low IMO
Please stop with that narrative and take my comment into consideration:
When Soulbound cards were announced there were always talks that they could be unlockable, in the future. No one, at the time, thought it could be anything other than the burn value. That's a very fair situation: no DEC is ever minted with this.
2x fee to unlock, even with voucher discount, is already move expensive than it should be. I'll still vote for it because people are crazy about wanting even higher fees. Just think about 5x. There's no way anyone will ever pay $62 to unlock a GF legendary. Add all the market fees that now exist, plus the risk of not being able to sell it for enough to make a profit, and the cards are still basically Soulbound. You can buy GF legendaries for cheaper than that unlock fee from CL regular and rewards set!
The cards can't stay Soulbound forever nor can they have such a high cost that no one unlocks them. This would be very bad for any new player joining in after those cards are not being printed anymore. Even anyone joining now would be screwed out of many of them. Even players who played the whole time at lower leagues, if they eventually want to invest more and move up, would be stuck with low levels for these cards.
SB cards are not intended to be profitable. The value is in the cards themselves, not in what you can sell them for. That's literally the point of a soulbound item.
The only reason they need to be unlockable is so those who didn't get to earn them while they were in print can go back and get them. There is no reason this needs to be available for a cheap price. You say $62 is too much for a GFL, yet we have GFLs that sell for 100x that (even before they had PP value for land).
It's not so much about them being profitable but more about them being available to play for everyone who wants to play with them. How can we get new players to stick with us when they see they can't get some of the important cards because they are super expensive even though most old players have them? Or worse, if the cost is high and there's a time limit to unlock and when they join they simply can't find the card. They're gonna give up when they see they can't access the card. Anyway, if I'm going to sell them, I still want to profit and not have to gamble taking a huge loss.
Those GFL that cost 100x are from older sets with very low print run. These cards have a high print run but you want to artificially make them expensive.
At that point I'd rather have them stay soulbound forever and use a similar system to dust in hearthstone where you can burn cards for dust and use it to get other cards. We could apply that to soulbound cards and allow it to be used on older and newer soulbound cards.
especially without any limit to time to unlock these, these cards would likely never trade much above the unlock value. Then people will complain that we printed too many.
With the number of these printed you are absolutely right, the market will set there value at just slightly above unlock value.
SB cards should not be a source of profit (any profit value here comes at the expense of other assets). Set the price extremely high so there is little desire to unlock them. If you want to pay a premium and burn a lot of DEC to go back and get old cards then you can, but otherwise the design is for these cards to only be earned by playing the game.
Love Shaq!
Not going to vote on this in the preproposal.
Matt already indicated that this number is too low in his opinion and unless I hear or see otherwise from him I'll vote against it for the actual proposal.
8 days ago, he said in town square that this price is totally okay. in the daohall on friday he said something about land resources, shortly after he probably said in a private conversation 4x because vouchers are free.
ps: i'm still waiting for my load of supposedly free vouchers
He also said that he hadn't given it much thought yet, so my hope is that he'll give his input and/or cast a vote himself to indicate where he's at for this proposal.
I very much value Matts opinion on these topics so lets see where we end up :-)
I guess I don't really care. Even at 2x, I wouldn't bother paying to unlock them. If someone wants it even higher, then double eff that. I hate the idea that we had to earn the cards by playing, and then we'd have to pay double the burn value to bring them out of the web 2.0 area, only for them to not have a burn value after that. No thanks! I'm not even going to vote on this one.
I have already given up on Soulbound and written them off as permanently locked into my acc to be used for battling only. lol
That's what I plan to do with mine too. The only reason I'm kind of interested in unlocking is to possibly buy the few copies I need of some that aren't at high enough levels.
I am late to the discussion. I will be voting this down for several resons. however I would like to propose a different concept. (but the Discord Discussion thread was locked)
What if unlocking a soulbound card was temporary... something like this:
What if it cost 10 vouchers to TEMPORARILY unlock the card to be listed for sale or rent. As soon as that card is sold. It becomes soulbound locked again but to the new owners account. If it's for renting. The unlock allows the card to be rented out to as many people that want to rent it for as long as the owner leaves it there. As soon as the owner takes if off rental the card is soulbound locked again and would require 10 more vouchers to be listed on the market again.
Card level would not matter. Same for all cards of all levels. Including gold foils.
So basically for 10 vouchers you get to trade that card once and then it locks again
Thoughts?
Its an interesting twist. Very creative Axler!
I'm glad this is coming up for a vote so that people understand that they were given a "voice" on a contentious and complicated issue. So thanks for bringing it forth @clayboyn and keeping your word.
I also will vote it down for several reasons:
One: I don't believe its a compromise at all. The main discussion for unlocking costs was between 2x and 5x. There were a few outliers higher, but basically this is saying that people pay NO MORE to unlock from what has already been voted for the land unlocking.
Put a different way, it does nothing to address the valid concerns of its effect to the economy. Without addressing the concerns of @vugtis and people that think like him, then that's a flawed way to proceed imo.
Two: My major issue was having a time limit and that also was not addressed at all with this vote. I am willing to compromise and bury my biggest issue if others did the same, but they didn't. I could've lived with 2x if it was for a very limited time, like what @vugtis suggested in a compromise, but since that didn't make it into this proposal and we couldn't agree then I can't support this.
The bottom line is I'm very happy that this will get a larger vote in game, and I think this is a good process to follow. We are learning about each other and how to form a compromise (or not). But it is good to figure out either way.
I'm also happy to hear Matt's thoughts about the "costs to unlock" being 4x or higher. That is a guide that will unite many people on this. By having this discussion now, we have had some great ideas surface. Even though I hope this proposal fails, I think the vote will still produce positive results!
While I agree that it's good that it's coming to a vote now (and very likely will fail) it also showcases the issue we have with the current pre-preproposal system of discussion in Discord. While there were a lot of people in favor of this proposal, there is actually very little stake in favor of it.
So moving forward, we will need to find better ways to gauge how much stake is supporting (or opposing) a possible proposal so we don't keep bringing up proposals that have no chance of passing in the first place.
to judge if the actual vote at the end differs much from what was voted in the discord. we have to see the real vote at the end first, don't we? 😗
yep, exactly. That's why it was a good decision to move forward with this and let people weigh in!
I agree that is also likely a very positive benefit of this vote. We are learning about our processes too. All organizations must develop, I think that's exactly what we are doing with this vote (and the other votes to a lesser extent too).
We'll get there though. We have a lot of passionate people on every side of every issue. That makes me confident in our future!!!
Please stop with that narrative. Take into consideration my comment before it's too late to save Splinterlands. Honestly, 90% of the proposals that pass/not pass show me time and time again that the whales only have their own interests in mind instead of the overall game/player base.
When Soulbound cards were announced there were always talks that they could be unlockable, in the future. No one, at the time, thought it could be anything other than the burn value. That's a very fair situation: no DEC is ever minted with this.
2x fee to unlock, even with voucher discount, is already move expensive than it should be. I'll still vote for it because people are crazy about wanting even higher fees. Just think about 5x. There's no way anyone will ever pay $62 to unlock a GF legendary. Add all the market fees that now exist, plus the risk of not being able to sell it for enough to make a profit, and the cards are still basically Soulbound. You can buy GF legendaries for cheaper than that unlock fee from CL regular and rewards set!
The cards can't stay Soulbound forever nor can they have such a high cost that no one unlocks them. This would be very bad for any new player joining in after those cards are not being printed anymore. Even anyone joining now would be screwed out of many of them. Even players who played the whole time at lower leagues, if they eventually want to invest more and move up, would be stuck with low levels for these cards.
You make a lot of assumptions in there. I guess we disagree on how to find a solution.
One thing you should consider before you tell people to "stop with that narrative": insulting people that are trying to help you with this ridiculous statement will not help you at all. Don't be surprised if everything else you say afterwards will be viewed as biased and self-serving:
Normally I don't take the time to blast someone that is so rude, arrogant, and condescending; but in your case I will tell you that your attitude is exactly what causes problems for the community.
You don't want to see anything but your way, you have it all figured out in your mind, and what you haven't learned is how to work with others. Instead you are like a child that doesn't get his way and throws insults out in hopes that he can rile up enough people to join his cause.
If you want a reasonable discussion of my point of view, then I'm happy to have one. But for you to try to thrust your perspective in and drown mine out, then don't waste your breath.
We all have a vote and you are welcome to vote how you want based on whatever is in your head.
Well, it is the truth. Most often, people vote with their own interests in mind. Sometimes it's perceived interest, other times it's real interest. It just so happens that, usually, the interests of the whales don't align with the interests of the rest of the players. Some of them also have a bigger voice in the community to rally up others to their cause. I've seen the discussions in discord about this. It's absurd how some people try to argue that a higher unlock fee will actually make you profit more.
There is no downside big enough that is worse than the downsides I presented if we don't unlock the cards or if it's too expensive to unlock.
Thanks for the polite engagement, even though we don't think alike on these 2 topics. While I disagree on both points, of course we each have our own perspective which form our opinions.
I don't even see how my original comment was rude in any way, shape or form.
Your arguments have some flaws. The "no compromise aspect" is the worst part. 2x even with voucher discount is already a compromise. It should have always been 1x. That was what most people perceived would happen when they announced Soulbound cards. It would remove any possible DEC minting from these cards because, even if they were burned, they would only be getting back the DEC that was burned to unlock. Also, not everything is about compromise. Ignoring the obvious problems, if someone suggested that people with over 1M SPS were forced to give 10% to distribute to people who had less than 10k SPS, should we be talking about compromise and maybe go between 1% and 5%? We can't compromise anymore than this. These cards need to have a chance to become tradable, otherwise it creates too many problems, not for the economy but for the most important part of Splinterlands: the game itself.
I already have a few cards maxed out (only commons and uncommons) that I obviously would love to sell so that I could get other cards that I need. I'm not even sure I am willing to pay 2x with voucher discount and risk never making that back. If it's anything above that, I know I won't ever touch the unlock button.
You want 4x unlock fee? How is anyone gonna pay more than that for these cards? A maxed common would be $8. You can buy almost 3 maxed common reward cards for that price. You can even buy most maxed CL commons below that. A maxed rare would be $9.6, a maxed epic $18.4 and a maxed legendary $22. In rares we reach a similar conclusion to commons. Other than the summoners, there are only 2 CL rares that currently cost to buy maxed than it costs to unlock a maxed rare. Epics are similar too. Legendaries are a little better but it's still cheaper to buy any CL rewards legendaries and many CL legendaries than it is to unlock.
And just looking at the most extreme: GF legendaries would cost $50 just to unlock. Most GFL in CL or CL rewards cost that or around that. Even a couple GFL summoners are very close to that price! So, if I unlock one of mine for $50, for me to get a similar profit to a situation where I get and sell a GF Djinn Oshannus, I have to sell it for over $100 (because of all the market fees). If I sell it for $60 I profit about $6. Most people don't buy GF legendaries. If there are several very powerful legendaries that people can buy for the same price it costs to unlock these, why would they bother paying more for these?
You say that if the fee is low and there's no time limit the cards will be cheap. That is not a problem. I want cheap cards. Cards too expensive are a problem for the game. Right now most people can't access the most OP untamed cards and those who do have a huge advantage. We can't create a similar or even worse problem with these cards, especially because they still have very well over an year in Modern.
A high fee makes the cards more expensive for the buyer. It also increases the risk and lowers the profit for the seller. Everyone loses.
The only possible positive for some people is the potential upside by gambling the unlock fee if there's a time limit. But that is only available for whales who have spare capital. Most players can't afford to gamble that money into unlocking their own cards instead of buying some of the new cards.
I would prefer that they remained soulbound forever and instead could be burned for "dust" that could be used to get other soulbound cards, from this or future sets. This way, there would never be an oversupply of these cards but even new players could always burn some of their cards to get an old one that isn't in print anymore. This dust system is something that hearthstone does.
Rather than me rehash many points I've already made, let me just point out all the assumptions you make. Maybe that will help you to understand better:
a) 2x is a compromise.
b) 1x is the way it should be
c) most people perceived it this way
d) we can't compromise more than this
e) these cards need to have a chance to become tradable
f) if not tradeable it will endanger SPL itself
g) you say I want a 4x unlock fee
h) you then explain how the card market works without any reference to past issues like Alpha, Beta, Dice, Untamed
i) you want to sell at a profit but you also want cheap cards
j) high fee lowers the profit for sellers
k) only whales will benefit if there's a time limit
We don't have to debate these assumptions, but there are people out there that would think you are wrong on each of these points. Thus they are in your mind, and called an assumption.
Just remember that not everyone sees things as you do. You may think you are right, but others would say you are wrong. Its ok to have an opinion of course, but you should know that any opinion is not proven, its simply your theory.
I will vote against this for the reasons I stated in my original post. Its not a compromise and doesn't have a time limit.
I would compromise on my issue if others did so too, but I'm certainly not going to reward with my vote people that are unwilling to give an inch and see the other side. I don't think that is healthy or good of the game, so I would rather see this fail.
That's my opinion and I will vote on my opinion. I'm sure everyone will do the same.
This is an unhealthy and destructive opinion:
You can state it all you want, but that doesn't make it true.
Its insulting and I'm quite sure you wouldn't appreciate people ascribing a negative connotation to you without knowing you at all.
If you want to be treated with respect, you should treat others with respect.
It's an opinion that is backed up by how a majority of the whales voted most of the time. Most people vote with their own interests in mind, I do too but I have voted against my own interests in the past because I thought it was the best. The problem is that not only the whales alone can make or break a decision, some of them are also able to influence a lot of people.
It's not even an insult. At worst, take it as me venting because I feel, yet again, that me and many others will be getting the short end of the stick.
I think its an insult to say someone doesn't care about others. I do appreciate your self reflection though. I think when you say you are 'getting the short end of the stick', you just assume that the vote went in such a way as to not give you what you want.
In this case, I do care that you don't get the short end of the stick, but I'm voting against you because I think your view of things is wrong. I of course could be wrong in my thinking, that's happened before many times. But I know why I'm voting the way I am, and I'm doing so to protect you as much as to protect me.
When Soulbound cards were announced there were always talks that they could be unlockable, in the future. No one, at the time, thought it could be anything other than the burn value. That's a very fair situation: no DEC is ever minted with this.
2x fee to unlock, even with voucher discount, is already move expensive than it should be. I'll still vote for it because people are crazy about wanting even higher fees. Just think about 5x. There's no way anyone will ever pay $62 to unlock a GF legendary. Add all the market fees that now exist, plus the risk of not being able to sell it for enough to make a profit, and the cards are still basically Soulbound. You can buy GF legendaries for cheaper than that unlock fee from CL regular and rewards set!
The cards can't stay Soulbound forever nor can they have such a high cost that no one unlocks them. This would be very bad for any new player joining in after those cards are not being printed anymore. Even anyone joining now would be screwed out of many of them. Even players who played the whole time at lower leagues, if they eventually want to invest more and move up, would be stuck with low levels for these cards.
Would this address the ability to combine purchased unlocked cards to your locked SB card to re-bind them? Or force players to pay for unbinding in order to top off cards?
I don't know how the team is going to solve that. A good solution would be to have something like X/400 BCX unlocked and only have to pay for the remaining BCX.
It is getting too expensive to unlock these for the purpose of trading/selling/exchanging them for other SB. SOME mechinism would be fair that allows hard working players who earned SB to convert them into the SB that they still need, without exorbitant cost. Also, prioritizing 'land usage' over battle usage is unfair to your main ranked play players who care about actually battling with SB. Why are those players taking a back seat to land?
I guess I don't really care. Even at 2x, I wouldn't bother paying to unlock them. If someone wants it even higher, then double eff that. I hate the idea that we had to earn the cards by playing, and then we'd have to pay double the burn value to bring them out of the web 2.0 arena, only for them to not have a burn value after that. No thanks! I'm not even going to vote on this one.
Makes sense and sounds good to me.
I thought the price just to unlock for land was astronomically expensive. Making that price the full cost to unlock might be a little on the low side, but if even half of the currently issued cards get unlocked, that will burn over 750 million DEC and close to 4 million vouchers.(if everyone uses 50% vouchers and DEC)
Assuming these cards continue to be in chests for another 6 months, those numbers can easily reach to over 1 billion DEC and 5 million vouchers burned.
Feels like there's really no perfect solution here, but if we do this with no burn value I'm much less concerned about them being over-minted. Sure there will probably be some level of speculation to sell as close to "at cost" as possible, but with no guaranteed refund I think a lot of bot farms are going to be hard pressed to mint a ton and dump them for a profit.
That's another factor that is very important to throw into the mix: the burn value. If this doesn't pass, then we need to add that into the future negotiations too.
This is currently priced very close to burn value, and people are free to load up on vouchers at this price right now for this purpose. At this price bots will be able to flood the market with their cards, which will decrease the value of existing sets (which are already at lows) together with undermining the effects of cards burning and land to support prices. The release of these cards will fall in advance of the Rebellion sale ending which could also harm Rebellion pack sales.
The card surplus with many cards near burn value is seen as a problem to be fixed, at the expense of the community. Flooding the market with a vast number of these additional cards just compounds this issue. It's a no from me.
How is it priced very close to burn value if there is no burn value? "These unlocked reward cards will have no DEC burn value.”
Will vote for free unlock. Pay for unlock - is stealing our money! F*ck that Matt's opinion.
Posted using Splintertalk
I don't have strong feelings about this and I don't see the urgency of getting to this vote. Matt seems to have plans for this forming though. While I'm not sure if I'll agree with his ideas once they are solidified but I'd like to see them before we cut him off at the knees.
It appears this is vote is dead on arrival anyway. At least the world has 100k less DEC in it now. 😀
The way I would do the unlocking is something like this.
Once Soulbound reward cards go out of print they become 'starter cards' so bots can't destroy the economy even more. In order to unlock and have them similar to normal cards, the 2x DEC burn value needs to be burned as it is now to make them usable on land + 1 Card of the same type needs to be burned.
Legendary needs another legendary card burned, Rare Summoner needs another Rare summoner to be burned maybe even from the same Splinter to keep it even. This would prevent further mass inflation of cards and actually give them some value to the point where they won't be dumped on the market.
If anything is needed, it's a Card Burn Mechaism so holding cards isn't a guarantee to see their prices in a race to the bottom as it is now.
These SB cards, were the worst "invention" possible. What about a ruleset - only SB cards allowed, the catch = you must burn DEC (card burn value) in order to be able to use them for the line-up?
I agree with the comment that said when reward cards were made soul-bound there was plenty of talks about them being unbound at some point. In fact unbinding at some point was one of the selling points. Regardless markets change and sometimes the original plan needs tweaks. Reading comments it seems as the burn ratio is the biggest issue at the moment. Some like me think anything over the cards DEC worth is an overcharge (I do see the reasoning for making it more). Others want 5X or more of the cards DEC value to be the burn.
I suggest lowering the fee to the cards DEC value but requiring 1 Voucher per BCX. In this model Vouchers give no discount, they are a requirement. Cards that hit certain leveling requirements can require less Vouchers to unbound. With MAX level cards getting the biggest voucher discount. This will encourage combining/ adds no additional DEC to the market and will give Vouchers another usecase. Since Vouchers are currently worth 3 cents that should be enough of a fail-safe in making sure the current card market doesn't get flooded. The idea above cold be tweeked to only require a Voucher but that would mean creating extra DEC and I don't think anyone wants that. I also think Splinterlands should just bit the bullet and announce that after this set RC will always be soulbound.
I'd be in favor of keeping them always SoulBound, but having them eventually be burnable for tokens that would let you get copies of other cards. Like maybe not until after the reward print run is over, but that way if you still need a few copies of some and you have extas of others, you could trade. If they were always SoulBound, there'd be no incentive for people to try to get extra copies of the better cards.
this is unfortunately not a solution. because if new players have no possibility to get these cards, then it is even worse than with gladiators. where new players have to fight all the time but it can take a very long time until they get a quora for example^^
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @clayboyn!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-11-28 01:48 UTC
Soulbound Temporary solution. Can we just make them so they are (RENTABLE) not tradable, not saleable, just rentable. The ability to rent what you do not have is really great and will benefit new players greatly.