I'm glad this is coming up for a vote so that people understand that they were given a "voice" on a contentious and complicated issue. So thanks for bringing it forth @clayboyn and keeping your word.
I also will vote it down for several reasons:
One: I don't believe its a compromise at all. The main discussion for unlocking costs was between 2x and 5x. There were a few outliers higher, but basically this is saying that people pay NO MORE to unlock from what has already been voted for the land unlocking.
Put a different way, it does nothing to address the valid concerns of its effect to the economy. Without addressing the concerns of @vugtis and people that think like him, then that's a flawed way to proceed imo.
Two: My major issue was having a time limit and that also was not addressed at all with this vote. I am willing to compromise and bury my biggest issue if others did the same, but they didn't. I could've lived with 2x if it was for a very limited time, like what @vugtis suggested in a compromise, but since that didn't make it into this proposal and we couldn't agree then I can't support this.
The bottom line is I'm very happy that this will get a larger vote in game, and I think this is a good process to follow. We are learning about each other and how to form a compromise (or not). But it is good to figure out either way.
I'm also happy to hear Matt's thoughts about the "costs to unlock" being 4x or higher. That is a guide that will unite many people on this. By having this discussion now, we have had some great ideas surface. Even though I hope this proposal fails, I think the vote will still produce positive results!
While I agree that it's good that it's coming to a vote now (and very likely will fail) it also showcases the issue we have with the current pre-preproposal system of discussion in Discord. While there were a lot of people in favor of this proposal, there is actually very little stake in favor of it.
So moving forward, we will need to find better ways to gauge how much stake is supporting (or opposing) a possible proposal so we don't keep bringing up proposals that have no chance of passing in the first place.
to judge if the actual vote at the end differs much from what was voted in the discord. we have to see the real vote at the end first, don't we? 😗
yep, exactly. That's why it was a good decision to move forward with this and let people weigh in!
I agree that is also likely a very positive benefit of this vote. We are learning about our processes too. All organizations must develop, I think that's exactly what we are doing with this vote (and the other votes to a lesser extent too).
We'll get there though. We have a lot of passionate people on every side of every issue. That makes me confident in our future!!!
Please stop with that narrative. Take into consideration my comment before it's too late to save Splinterlands. Honestly, 90% of the proposals that pass/not pass show me time and time again that the whales only have their own interests in mind instead of the overall game/player base.
When Soulbound cards were announced there were always talks that they could be unlockable, in the future. No one, at the time, thought it could be anything other than the burn value. That's a very fair situation: no DEC is ever minted with this.
2x fee to unlock, even with voucher discount, is already move expensive than it should be. I'll still vote for it because people are crazy about wanting even higher fees. Just think about 5x. There's no way anyone will ever pay $62 to unlock a GF legendary. Add all the market fees that now exist, plus the risk of not being able to sell it for enough to make a profit, and the cards are still basically Soulbound. You can buy GF legendaries for cheaper than that unlock fee from CL regular and rewards set!
The cards can't stay Soulbound forever nor can they have such a high cost that no one unlocks them. This would be very bad for any new player joining in after those cards are not being printed anymore. Even anyone joining now would be screwed out of many of them. Even players who played the whole time at lower leagues, if they eventually want to invest more and move up, would be stuck with low levels for these cards.
You make a lot of assumptions in there. I guess we disagree on how to find a solution.
One thing you should consider before you tell people to "stop with that narrative": insulting people that are trying to help you with this ridiculous statement will not help you at all. Don't be surprised if everything else you say afterwards will be viewed as biased and self-serving:
Normally I don't take the time to blast someone that is so rude, arrogant, and condescending; but in your case I will tell you that your attitude is exactly what causes problems for the community.
You don't want to see anything but your way, you have it all figured out in your mind, and what you haven't learned is how to work with others. Instead you are like a child that doesn't get his way and throws insults out in hopes that he can rile up enough people to join his cause.
If you want a reasonable discussion of my point of view, then I'm happy to have one. But for you to try to thrust your perspective in and drown mine out, then don't waste your breath.
We all have a vote and you are welcome to vote how you want based on whatever is in your head.
Well, it is the truth. Most often, people vote with their own interests in mind. Sometimes it's perceived interest, other times it's real interest. It just so happens that, usually, the interests of the whales don't align with the interests of the rest of the players. Some of them also have a bigger voice in the community to rally up others to their cause. I've seen the discussions in discord about this. It's absurd how some people try to argue that a higher unlock fee will actually make you profit more.
There is no downside big enough that is worse than the downsides I presented if we don't unlock the cards or if it's too expensive to unlock.
Thanks for the polite engagement, even though we don't think alike on these 2 topics. While I disagree on both points, of course we each have our own perspective which form our opinions.
I don't even see how my original comment was rude in any way, shape or form.
Your arguments have some flaws. The "no compromise aspect" is the worst part. 2x even with voucher discount is already a compromise. It should have always been 1x. That was what most people perceived would happen when they announced Soulbound cards. It would remove any possible DEC minting from these cards because, even if they were burned, they would only be getting back the DEC that was burned to unlock. Also, not everything is about compromise. Ignoring the obvious problems, if someone suggested that people with over 1M SPS were forced to give 10% to distribute to people who had less than 10k SPS, should we be talking about compromise and maybe go between 1% and 5%? We can't compromise anymore than this. These cards need to have a chance to become tradable, otherwise it creates too many problems, not for the economy but for the most important part of Splinterlands: the game itself.
I already have a few cards maxed out (only commons and uncommons) that I obviously would love to sell so that I could get other cards that I need. I'm not even sure I am willing to pay 2x with voucher discount and risk never making that back. If it's anything above that, I know I won't ever touch the unlock button.
You want 4x unlock fee? How is anyone gonna pay more than that for these cards? A maxed common would be $8. You can buy almost 3 maxed common reward cards for that price. You can even buy most maxed CL commons below that. A maxed rare would be $9.6, a maxed epic $18.4 and a maxed legendary $22. In rares we reach a similar conclusion to commons. Other than the summoners, there are only 2 CL rares that currently cost to buy maxed than it costs to unlock a maxed rare. Epics are similar too. Legendaries are a little better but it's still cheaper to buy any CL rewards legendaries and many CL legendaries than it is to unlock.
And just looking at the most extreme: GF legendaries would cost $50 just to unlock. Most GFL in CL or CL rewards cost that or around that. Even a couple GFL summoners are very close to that price! So, if I unlock one of mine for $50, for me to get a similar profit to a situation where I get and sell a GF Djinn Oshannus, I have to sell it for over $100 (because of all the market fees). If I sell it for $60 I profit about $6. Most people don't buy GF legendaries. If there are several very powerful legendaries that people can buy for the same price it costs to unlock these, why would they bother paying more for these?
You say that if the fee is low and there's no time limit the cards will be cheap. That is not a problem. I want cheap cards. Cards too expensive are a problem for the game. Right now most people can't access the most OP untamed cards and those who do have a huge advantage. We can't create a similar or even worse problem with these cards, especially because they still have very well over an year in Modern.
A high fee makes the cards more expensive for the buyer. It also increases the risk and lowers the profit for the seller. Everyone loses.
The only possible positive for some people is the potential upside by gambling the unlock fee if there's a time limit. But that is only available for whales who have spare capital. Most players can't afford to gamble that money into unlocking their own cards instead of buying some of the new cards.
I would prefer that they remained soulbound forever and instead could be burned for "dust" that could be used to get other soulbound cards, from this or future sets. This way, there would never be an oversupply of these cards but even new players could always burn some of their cards to get an old one that isn't in print anymore. This dust system is something that hearthstone does.
Rather than me rehash many points I've already made, let me just point out all the assumptions you make. Maybe that will help you to understand better:
a) 2x is a compromise.
b) 1x is the way it should be
c) most people perceived it this way
d) we can't compromise more than this
e) these cards need to have a chance to become tradable
f) if not tradeable it will endanger SPL itself
g) you say I want a 4x unlock fee
h) you then explain how the card market works without any reference to past issues like Alpha, Beta, Dice, Untamed
i) you want to sell at a profit but you also want cheap cards
j) high fee lowers the profit for sellers
k) only whales will benefit if there's a time limit
We don't have to debate these assumptions, but there are people out there that would think you are wrong on each of these points. Thus they are in your mind, and called an assumption.
Just remember that not everyone sees things as you do. You may think you are right, but others would say you are wrong. Its ok to have an opinion of course, but you should know that any opinion is not proven, its simply your theory.
I will vote against this for the reasons I stated in my original post. Its not a compromise and doesn't have a time limit.
I would compromise on my issue if others did so too, but I'm certainly not going to reward with my vote people that are unwilling to give an inch and see the other side. I don't think that is healthy or good of the game, so I would rather see this fail.
That's my opinion and I will vote on my opinion. I'm sure everyone will do the same.
You say you want a productive discussion yet you don't even try. You simply stated everything I said and said it is an opinion. Not everything is an opinion. If someone proposes that the DAO pay them all their assets, it's not a matter of opinion which one is wrong and which one is right.
Several of those are facts, not assumptions. How can anyone argue against the fact that a fee lowers the seller's profits?
You literally said you were happy with a 4x fee that Matt supposedly agrees with.
I talked about prices of CL cards because those are the most recent ones and those are the ones that will stay in Modern at the same time as these soulbound cards. There's no need to compare them to cards from a different era.
How do you not see the problems for the game if some meta cards are untradable? Imagine you were a new player arriving after these are out of print and you liked the game. You started playing but you kept losing to some cards. You investigate and you find out you can't get those cards anymore. Do you continue playing a game that is going to be super frustrating because, no matter how good you get, no matter how much money you're willing to put, you'll never be able to compete with people who happen to own those cards?
I explain all of my points. You putting them like makes it look like I simply gave those statements.
This is an unhealthy and destructive opinion:
You can state it all you want, but that doesn't make it true.
Its insulting and I'm quite sure you wouldn't appreciate people ascribing a negative connotation to you without knowing you at all.
If you want to be treated with respect, you should treat others with respect.
It's an opinion that is backed up by how a majority of the whales voted most of the time. Most people vote with their own interests in mind, I do too but I have voted against my own interests in the past because I thought it was the best. The problem is that not only the whales alone can make or break a decision, some of them are also able to influence a lot of people.
It's not even an insult. At worst, take it as me venting because I feel, yet again, that me and many others will be getting the short end of the stick.
I think its an insult to say someone doesn't care about others. I do appreciate your self reflection though. I think when you say you are 'getting the short end of the stick', you just assume that the vote went in such a way as to not give you what you want.
In this case, I do care that you don't get the short end of the stick, but I'm voting against you because I think your view of things is wrong. I of course could be wrong in my thinking, that's happened before many times. But I know why I'm voting the way I am, and I'm doing so to protect you as much as to protect me.
I don't think you or anyone else is trying to hurt the game on purpose. Unless we had an Elon Musk type of guy, so rich that he could afford a few million bucks to troll us, everyone in the ecosystem has an interest that the game has success. However, I often see decisions (some from the team) that are not good for the game or are too punishing for regular players.