099d9303bac5c681d4c0fc8eec1df38c423c6806
Thank you to all those who supported or at least entertained my proposal. It was good to interact with so many of you about it. I like Matt's proposal but to me Matt's proposal is not a small tweak to mine but an entirely separate idea with an entirely different impact on morale and the card economy.
It's clear to me though, that my proposal would not be possible to implement in time and I don't want to put that pressure on the team so I'm changing it to match Matt's suggestion. I asked him for new text but he's been understandably busy so I'm just going to copy his comment up here with one tweak and say this is the new proposal. Hopefully we can revisit the original proposal on a future set as I believe it has merit.
The New Proposal (from Matt's comments below)
Overall great idea and proposal - I am going to suggest going about this a slightly different way though, which should achieve a similar result - tons of cards being burned!
Ever since the success of our 5 year anniversary DEC burning event back in May, I have wanted to do something like that again, and I think this is a perfect opportunity for that. So I propose that Splinterlands does another burning event that works pretty much exactly the same way as the last one except that players must burn cards instead of DEC.
The company can provide titles and other prizes like we did last time, but we don't have as much available now to give out so I would propose to the DAO that some of the RW packs that are being given to it as part of the daily burn be made available as prizes for this promotion.
I expect that the DAO will receive something around 150k RW packs in total from the daily burns, so I'm thinking that the proposal could be for the DAO to allocate 50k-100k* of those packs to this event as the bulk of the prizes. I can work out the details and math for the amount and type of cards burned that lead to a chance of winning a prize, but I expect it will be similar to what you've proposed here.
Also, from an implementation perspective, if the packs set aside for the DAO are used then we're not under as much of a time crunch, and also by simply doing the burn event again we can re-use all of that code so it should be much quicker and easier to implement than if we do something that works differently.
Let me know your thoughts. If you like my idea and want to edit this proposal, reach out on Discord and I am happy to help you with that, or if you prefer to keep your proposal that is fine as well.
"" Matt originally said 50k packs and I can only imagine that's what he intends to go with. I made it a range because I don't know if he's sat down with the numbers yet and I want to give him some room if he needs it. Everything else is copied exactly from his comment below.*
Everything below is no longer an active part of the proposal
If you had the option, would you burn 200 BCX of penny cards in exchange for one Rift Watchers pack?
The Proposal
Allow the burning of cards as a way to purchase RiftWatcher packs. The following are the proposed burn amounts required to purchase one pack.
- 200 BCX of any common card + one voucher (one maxed copy + 2 vouchers = 2 packs)
- 60 BCX of any rare card + one voucher (one maxed copy + 2 vouchers = 2 packs)
- 12 BCX of any epic card + one voucher (one maxed copy + 4 vouchers = 4 packs)
- 3 BCX of any legendary card + one voucher (one maxed copy + 4 vouchers = 4 packs)
This proposal aims to voluntarily eliminate millions of surplus cards, while offering players a way to gain valuable RiftWatcher cards that would likely otherwise burn.
The Big Picture
There is an oversupply of cards. Land soaking them up is speculative. We still have 2.8 million CL packs to open (15 million cards). The team has acknowledged this oversupply by putting out two proposals to burn packs and the community has passed both. This proposal aims to help with this accepted problem.
Since the proposals passed to start the RiftWatchers burn and sell it in DEC, just 43k packs have sold. At the same time 580k packs burned and 80k went to the DAO. This means its very likely that we won't sell many more packs for DEC before they are all burned.
Since burning is not stimulating sales meaningfully, it's main advantage is lowering potential card inflation. So why not use them to create card deflation instead?
Further Benefits
RiftWatchers is an exciting set that players want. Being able to trade the cards no one cares about for cards we do want would bring excitement to many players.
While it's hard to say how much we could decrease the card supply by, if one million Rift Watcher packs sold this way, it could lower the total BCX supply of commons and rare cards by 10's of millions while making a significant dent in the overprinted epics and legendaries.
Of course, only cards that are significantly devalued due to oversupply would ever be burned. For instance, as soon as a common card is scarce enough to be valued by the community at just 4 cents, the incentive to burn it is gone.
Anticipated Pushback and Rebuttals
Let's wait and see what land does first
There isn't time to wait. Thousands of RW packs burn daily. The proposal system takes two weeks and it takes time to implement if this does pass. To try this again later we would need a whole new set that wasn't meant to be team revenue. This is the perfect opportunity to try something bold.
There aren't enough cards for land/we have a card shortage
According to Aggy, fully maxed out land would soak up 75% of all cards in existence. Most estimates I've heard in the community are that 20-40% of land will be utilized. That leaves a ton of cards out there and will not endanger land or play.
It should also be noted that land is already here. It went live on the mav server already (meaning real card staking is imminent) and card demand is at its lowest point in almost two years if you measure by total card market cap. Literally, today marks the lowest market cap since Chaos Legion released and it continues to drop.
If land were really going to demand enough cards to make a dent, we wouldn't be at 2 year lows on prices a week or so before actual staking starts. We have plenty of cards for land and play still. Plus, Rebellion is around the corner. If we did hit a shortage of cards, it would boost the demand for Rebellion and give the team more runway.
It will devalue RiftWatchers cards and be a slap in the face to those who bought in early
Yes. It probably will devalue RiftWatchers cards. But, it should not be considered a slap in the face. if you're sitting on enough RiftWatchers cards to be worried about their value, you're probably sitting on tons of other cards that will gain in value as they become more scarce. Also, you can take advantage of the deal as well. Even the mavs probably have a few RW cards they haven't maxed yet on their alt accounts.
This is a discount on RiftWatchers and discounts devalue cards
Yes, using discount to stimulate demand encourages overbuying, oversupply, and devaluation. But consider how insane it is that burning 200 BCX is currently a discount to get a year old pack with 5 cards in it. The fact that this is a discount shows how big the problem is that we need to solve. While discounts usually encourage card oversupply and card devaluation, this would do the opposite overall as it will lower the card supply, not increase it.
Some DEC will not go to the DAO
This is true. We might sell fewer RW packs in DEC. Pulling DEC out of the economy is important but the time when we were going to spend billions of DEC on RiftWatchers has passed. The sales data shows that most of us are content to watch them burn rather than spend $4 on them. And burning them takes no DEC out of circulation
At this point the only benefit that burning them has is to lower future inflation. Burning one million packs saves us 5 million BCX of card inflation. For context, we printed 8 million BCX of just venari heatsmith. We can aim higher than just dodging some future inflation.
What about the DEC created from burning cards?
If you burn cards for packs, no DEC would be given. If current mechanics dictate DEC must be created when a card is burned, hopefully the team can design the system so it burns the created DEC.
Possible modifications I've considered:
I can't wait to hear feedback but here are some places this could be modified by the community. To be clear, these are not currently part of the proposal.
- If the community would rather, the DEC from burned cards could go to the DAO as payment for packs.
- If feasible to code, it could be made so any packs purchased with card burns aren't eligible for airdrops. That would make DEC purchases more attractive.
How would this be done technically?
I do not know the hurdles involved in implementing this change. Time is critical though as packs are burning. If this passes, it should be implemented in whatever manner brings it out the fastest, even if it's not a perfect representation of the proposal.
Overall great idea and proposal - I am going to suggest going about this a slightly different way though, which should achieve a similar result - tons of cards being burned!
Ever since the success of our 5 year anniversary DEC burning event back in May, I have wanted to do something like that again, and I think this is a perfect opportunity for that. So I propose that Splinterlands does another burning event that works pretty much exactly the same way as the last one except that players must burn cards instead of DEC.
The company can provide titles and other prizes like we did last time, but we don't have as much available now to give out so I would propose to the DAO that some of the RW packs that are being given to it as part of the daily burn be made available as prizes for this promotion.
I expect that the DAO will receive something around 150k RW packs in total from the daily burns, so I'm thinking that the proposal could be for the DAO to allocate 50k of those packs to this event as the bulk of the prizes. I can work out the details and math for the amount and type of cards burned that lead to a chance of winning a prize, but I expect it will be similar to what you've proposed here.
Also, from an implementation perspective, if the packs set aside for the DAO are used then we're not under as much of a time crunch, and also by simply doing the burn event again we can re-use all of that code so it should be much quicker and easier to implement than if we do something that works differently.
Let me know your thoughts. If you like my idea and want to edit this proposal, reach out on Discord and I am happy to help you with that, or if you prefer to keep your proposal that is fine as well.
I think something set up like this is petty much mandatory to avoid instantly running out of Riftwatcher packs from burning cards, which is what would likely happen.
This I would absolutely vote for
Please don't make yet another event where all the whales get a ton of prizes and everyone else is stuck on a few tickets for a very small chance to win something.
I would be fine with a maximum of 50k packs for the event. This wouldn't affect the current circulation of RW cards and packs by very much.
I like it!
by the way, some in the community were wondering about the 25B total supply of DEC. Since we only have around 4B in circulation currently, where did all that massive amount of DEC ever go to? Is that taken out of circulation permanently or could some of that return?
Hi Matt!
Sorry it's taken me a few days to get my thoughts together. I just sent you a DM on Discord.
I like the recycling of codes because #1, it makes it faster and easier and #2 it saves money from having multiple programmers make a new one because you just need to edit and revise some lines of codes.
I'd like to add a what if. What if we make this burning events a more common occurrence? You could also do something along the line of burning cards to get a pack. let's say establish points for common, rare, epic and legendaries and then when you get to a certain point, you can use that to buy packs.
Reason for this is to reduce the number of cards on the market specifically CHaos Legion packs. Djinn Oshannus is an awesome card and you can see it sold for less than $1 because of how ridiculously many is it right now on the market.
By doing this, players can technically discard the cards that they don't want in hopes to get a better one. Also it reduces the cards in the market. Let's say you need to burn 500 common cards in total to get 1 Chaos legion pack (5 cards in total). If you can get 4 commons in that CL pack, then a 496 card were just burned. If 10 people do this 10 times, then you have 49600 common cards burned for a 400 common card (considering the CL pack they get are worsts by having 4 common 1 rare. CL packs would still be random in chance like a normal pack.)
TLDR, it's just recycling cards to get better cards (hopefully), while reducing the overall number of cards in the market which is waaaaaaayyy above the active playerbase right now.
Definitely one way to go about it and we need a long period of card deflation for a while if you ever want to sell packs again.. I really wanted to see Rebellion be a crafting set. Instead of cards each pack has 5 tokens of random rarity using the same odds we have for cards. Using these crafting tokens you can burn 2 cards of the same rarity as the token to generate a random rebellion card of that rarity. Golden tokens would need gold foil materials. It would be up to you whether these cards being burnt can only be from core sets or reward cards too. Releasing future sets like this would burn 2 cards for every 1 new card created. We probably need at least 2 set releases like this to clean the oversupply out of the system. A variant of this system would be the set after rebellion or a mini set that is all dual splinter cards. If the crafting token is water/fire common you would need a water and fire common from chaos legion for example to fulfill the recipe.
I do like the idea of a great burning but for cards, however I have a couple of reservations/questions I'd like to get cleared up before I vote.
Will cards from various editions carry varying 'values' in this system? If not, I have concerns that we will end up only burning CL reward cards, thereby disproportionately benefiting a select group of individuals or (probably) botnets who hold the majority of these supplies. I would favor a formula where the baseline market value for each edition is approximately equal for burning, creating an incentive to burn cards from every edition rather than focusing solely on one specific edition.
Is this the best we can do with the RW packs? I've been thinking about submitting a proposal for players to "mine" RW and/or Rebellion packs from lands, similar to how totems drop, or maybe even through a simple 'crafting' process which will come with some short-term tech debt, but potentially reused for lands 2.0. I'm not saying this alternative distribution is better, I just think it's worth exploring other ways to use RW packs before we commit to the first idea we come across, even though I do like this idea a lot.
Looking forward to hearing opinions on this!
Somebody suggested a graveyard on each plot. Where any card that's burnt is burnt to that specific plot, and gives a permanent boost to production.
Better to have a persistent card-burn mechanism than a series of ad hoc promos.
We could also do both. "Burn an Epic earth card on a swamp plot in the next 72 hours, and get 1 bonus time crystal per bcx burnt"
The card graveyard was actually also my baby 😂. I've written about it a few times and I posted it under one of Yaba's last proposals. It's actually my favorite way to manage cards since it would be persistent but I only had 100k dec and this one is time sensitive so I chose it.
I would fully support you putting up a proposal for it if you wanted. I can give you all the details as I have it and/or you can modify the idea however you think it would work best. I really think something like that will have a much better chance of passing if you propose it than if I do.
I'll send you a friend request on discord in case you want to discuss it.
I love an idea of a card graveyard too. We could have a spot to "bury" cards and give the players something new, it would be a great way to create card scarcity over time if done properly.
@imno are you speaking to Yabapmatt about his idea and going to amend your proposal in conjunction with him?
I see that you are heading for a full-vote now on the proposal, I think that's awesome and I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
Hi Dave. The card graveyard is something I've been kicking around for a while. I have it pretty built out stats wise. I'd love to see it become reality.
I'm glad to see this hit the voting threshold. These last few days have been busier than I expected but I've been kicking around Matt's idea. It's different from mine in some key ways and doesn't quite accomplish everything I was thinking but it has its pluses. I just messaged Matt with some questions and thoughts. We'll see what comes of it.
Cool... I look forward to see what you guys come up with. Hopefully you can edit this post before its over so whatever changes you make will make the final version.
Due to everything going on, our communication was pretty sparse. I decided just to change the proposal to his comment since it seems like it would be a major strain to implement mine. I think his comment gives the gist of the idea well enough to be voted on.
I did suggest that if there's a card burning building for guilds or something coming that he attach it to that so prizes are just a pot sweetener. No idea if anything like that is coming or not but I think it needs something equivalent to guild points to not just be seen as whale games where only the top few people will have a chance to get anything.
Thanks, mate, accepted. Afaict your idea would be outside the scope of the DAO; so more of an internal/gameplay decision for the team.
Yeah, that's another reason why this one was a better one to do 😂. However, Aggy has said many times that its his goal to follow the communities will as long as its not stuff like, make Aggy sell his house lol. I'd assume that if a proposal like that passed, they'd at least give it real consideration.
The burn part is interesting, but not for RW, since:
cards that should not be burnable for DEC are soulbounds/gladius;
As an altenative, the following avenues could be interesting to explore (I'm sure there might be others):
These would all be a lot better alternatives to burning cards for RW.
I voted yes because I don't really care either way and I'd rather be a yes man than be a naysayer. haha.
🤣
PLEASE VOTE 'NO'
I'm concerned that we keep being asked to vote on proposal's with vague details.
Proposal #44 is titled 'Burn cards for Rift Watchers Packs', yet the concept has changed to simply be a vote to have another burn event. Leaving all mechanics and specific details to be decided at a later date. Who decides, would we vote on those details?
Here is just a few questions I think should be answered within the actual proposal.
I very much like the idea of burning cards, I dont like the idea of burning cards to get packs of cards.
Can we look to ways that benefit the player in the long run? this is just silly to me, I heavily participated in burning dec event and got an epic title, but this does not sound like something I would want to participate in.
Love the burn cards idea, lets burn the cards for some long term benefit to the account or gameplay, quality of life, anything
best wishes, let the Age of Yaba begin with truly great things
View or trade
BEER.Hey @forsakensushi, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @isnochys for you. Enjoy it!Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your
BEER.Thank you for your witness vote!
Have a !BEER on me!
To Opt-Out of my witness beer program just comment STOP below
I like it, makes sense and a bit of fun too!
Thanks! That's what I was thinking. I think its a good way to bridge a fun event to helping the economy out!
As written I would support this but would like the idea more if the dec from the burned cards went to the DAO.
Thanks for the support! I personally like DEC being burned but I think they both have merit. I'm hoping to hear a few more opinions on it.
This is a hard no. I like the idea of burning cards for cards but not RW packs. This is like trading pennies for quarters. It's a huge fu to those who bought.
Alternative:
I think that a card burn mechanic should be applied to unlocking SB reward cards.
who cares who bought at this point? everything is down, everyone is in the red, no one's cards are worth jack shit, and no one is buying RW packs.
Great Proposal and very well written communicating the idea!
The game desperately needs a card-burning mechanic like this to deal with the crazy oversupply. It would be nice if it could be done with Riftwatcher packs even though it would suck for the ones who went big buying them since values for sure would drop on them and I don't think value of other cards which they own going up would compensate. So as someone who never got into riftwatchers I would vote yes, but at the same time if I had lots of riftwatcher cards I would vote no to protect their value.
I really hope a card-burning mechanic in order to mint new cards or packs is put in place at some point in order to avoid cards getting inflated to infinity. The process of making soulbound card transferable should always include this. Burn common card to mint a common card as one of the requirements and the same with Rare, Epic, Legendary.
THIS.
WTF. This proposal actually makes me mad. How many fucking times do we need to sacrifice the game to benefit bot farms. Bot farms will take full advantage of burning worthless cards for far more valuable RW cards. What guaranty do we have that another proposal will undermine rebellion packs? Why should I buy any asset if it will just be devalued by proposal?
If it passes I will not spend a dime on rebellion packs because it will be next...
Please vote down this handout to bot farms.
Makes sense! I like it!
I like this idea.
Great Idea @imno in my opinion if it is modified a little according to what @yabapmatt said implementation will be quicker by simply re-use all of that code used for DEC burn event plus Titles who dont want that... its like (icing on the Cake)
I would like to point out that, assuming that this leads to an increase in the price of cards, then criticism about the size of the discount becomes less relevant.
i.e., the ~50% discount (based on, say, the price of 200 x $0.01 common cards [+ vouchers]) becomes zero if those card prices were to double.
Personally, I like the idea .. but would increase the burn & vouchers required by an additional 50%.
I'm assuming that Matt's ideas will be used to modify this proposal so based on that I'm asking these questions:
What if we announce with this that Untamed/Dice will be moved out of modern at the end of this burning event? Instead of waiting for Rebellion this could remove one of the reasons why some people will vote no on this, it could maintain RW card values and land owners could use those older cards on land or sell them to wild format players. Would that take too much coding?
for every proposal we make, I think we should discuss how it could possibly be exploited. If this proposal passes how could it possibly be exploited? Maybe there needs to be caps/limits on what kind and how much each account can burn. In the past when Dice and Untamed were selling out (down to to the last 5-10%), before we had the secondary market, people would buy up the remaining packs and list them on atomic hub for 10 to 15X. That was a problem for me at the time as I was a 9 to 5 worker and I had to wait 2 weeks for each paycheck and slowly plug away at the dice and untamed packs. It felt unfair to me that what I saw as whales could come in and buy up the remaining packs and make them impossible to get so I was stuck. I had to wait for CL to come out.
Burnception - If this passes can we have the Artwork for this event be the Heatsmith burning piles of cards and when you scroll down or click to the next page it zooms out and he is really the one getting burned by a Riftwatchers fire card? I would suggest that this become a tradition so it keeps going like this for any future card burning event artwork.
I have to think how is this going to affect me and then try to extrapolate that out to all the other players. If this proposal passes, it along with land, will likely at least half way fix the rental maket. I bought, opened and combined a ton of CL packs because before the land white paper I didn't know what kind of workers I would need for land so I just kept buying CL packs. On the mav land server I opened like 2200 CL packs & I'm no where near matching my real account's CL deck. I spreadsheeted everything out to work out what cards go on what plots but I keep buying additional plots. Since I haven't been able to max out my RW deck despite buying 345 packs from store & somewhere close to 100 more on the secondary this proposal will help me but I will have to stop buying plots and go back to my spreadsheet & figure out what maxed cards I can burn for this event which leads me to this question - How many other people out there have plots that can use my maxed cards because their plot type is different than mine and they are in the same situation and neither one of us want to sell because the market is garbage right now but what if we could trade? But instead we are going to burn these cards for this event which might lead to less land getting utilized which hurts the economy. Is there some kind of maxed card worker swapping market we can create or ask peakmosters to create?
Now that land is going to be a reality why not make a portion of future packs element specific and use these as prizes for future events, quartlerly events, where there needs to be economy corrections or as a chance to win as a daily focus? Example - Let's say rebellion has 10 million packs. Lets say 2 million are reserved as element specific. If my daily focus is water I have a chance to win a water pack that only has water cards and neutrals. If I want to change my focus I'm going to burn vouchers. I need water cards as workers for my land.
"for every proposal we make, I think we should discuss how it could possibly be exploited. If this proposal passes how could it possibly be exploited? Maybe there needs to be caps/limits on what kind and how much each account can burn."
Excellent point. And the only clear answer is that only one account per KYC verification should be allowed to enter, but they won't do that, they'll just let the bot farms clean up some more
Splex you really need to work on your code here, this came out a total mess no matter what I tried and it ended up posting twice also. I can't use a capital letter f at the beginning of a sentence and if I use a parenthesis it blue marks everything I type after that and if I use a number it symbols it makes all the text super huge.
Splex you really need to work on your code here, this came out a total mess no matter what I tried and it ended up posting twice also. I can't use a capital letter f at the beginning of a sentence and if I use a parenthesis it blue marks everything I type after that and if I use a number symbol it makes all the text super huge.
Congratulations @imno! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain And have been rewarded with New badge(s)
Your next target is to reach 31000 upvotes.
You can view your badges on your board and compare yourself to others in the Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word
STOPCheck out our last posts:
Heck yeah I would. Penny cards are roughly 2$ for 200 BCX (If not less) and RW Packs are over 2.9$. So it would make all the sense to go for it, until RW packs get dumped under 2$.
While it would be good for burning a lot of cards, it would be straight violation towards RW pack investors in my honest opinion.
EIther way, I'm voting YES for this proposal, as I don't have much invested into RW myself and I would love to inherit some of those cards from that edition :)
This won't just be a thing, but a reoccurring thing we'll do. Great idea!
There are way too many CL Reward cards. This will get rid of a lot of them.
Buy...
and burn to get...
No!
This isn't even the proposal anymore. It's now Matt's burning event.
But even if it was, you're looking at this in a very short-sighted way.
A few people would have gotten some great deals like that but how long would they have lasted as cards burned?. If the burned cards were spread pretty evenly over different rarities, the proposal would have burned about 14 packs worth of CL cards for every 1 RW pack. It wouldn't have taken much time to burn through the ridiculous deals and send prices higher. 500k RW packs could have burned 7 million packs worth of CL cards. That's over half of the entire CL core set of 12.5 million and RW would have still had a lower print rate than Untamed.
But again, its not even the proposal now. So if you're going to vote against it that's fine. I just want to make sure you know what you're voting against is Matt's burning event and not my burning cards for riftwatcher packs proposal.
oh, ok, I'm fricken confused with this. Where are the specifics of what we are actually voting on?
Its everything below the heading of "The New Proposal (from Matt's comments below)" and above the heading that says something like "everything below this line is no longer part of the proposal" It's basically text pulled from Matt's comment which should show up first in the comment section if you'd rather read it there.
In short, Matt wants to put on a card burning event similar to the great DEC burning event they put on back in May. He wants to use some of the packs set aside by the DAO for promotions as prizes for the event. Matt asked for 50k packs in the comment. I made that a range between 50k and 100k so he could go bigger if he wanted to. That's really all it is.
So basically another 'event' where whales hoover up all the prizes and the few remaining 'normal' players get sod all - No Thanks
Hard no for me. I've been playing probably an average of 3 days every 4 as an individual player with a gold deck for about 9 months and a strong silver deck for about a year before that, and I haven't even got enough BCX to max out any over printed reward cards, one or two I've come close, but they're mostly at around Gold level, like 50 - 150 BCX for commons, a couple of legendaries with 5 or 6 BCX. What I'm saying is therefore that probably the only people who have leftover BCX to benefit from this will be whales who already sucked all the value out of the the game and now they'll get another way to do so.
I am going to vote against because I believe that this proposal has a really short term and not a long term view. The CL card base may be large, and a burn would be interesting, but I'm concerned that this is a tool that focuses more on artificially pricing things rather than sustaining the value of the game, value that is built thinking about gameplay and the opportunity for more people to play. The interesting thing would be that the RW edition has cards that introduce mechanics that are juicy, that are not detrimental to the synergies with CL and wait to grow in a proper way.
It's fine with me if you vote against it. But you should think about the fact that according to your account, you started playing in November 2021. That was right at the peak of card prices. That's not a coincidence. Almost everyone started playing around that time. Why? Because that's when cards were scarce and values were going up. That attracted your attention and everyone else's.
Where's all the new player growth since they flooded the game with CL? Non existent. And it will likely remain non existent as long as assets remain so numerous that no one cares about them. Flooding the game with 15 million CL packs was short term thinking with long term consequences. This undoes some of that. Growing in a proper way likely doesn't happen until assets are more balanced.
I start playing because I consider that the dinamic mana and ruleset where somenthing fresh in a TCG. I'm still playing because I like the game and also because I used to play other TGCs, so I'm not moved only for the need to make more money from my assets (that i dont see it like something negative at all). Thats why, no matter what, I'll continue playing till the game (hope not) bores me or dissapear.
I didn't say you were in it for the money. I said card values going up attracted your attention. The reason MOST of the player base that's here today started playing during the same 4-month window you did is because people were talking about it. Why? Because there was money to be made. Regardless to why you play it, you most likely would never have heard of the game to come play it if there weren't green candles. And if you would have, you're a rare exception.
Why aren't gold foil cards getting in on the action?
I thought about it but I didn't want to complicate it further. Especially when gold cards are far less likely to be burned since they are so much more valuable on land now.
However, now that it's Matt's proposal/event, he may factor gold cards into it.
i think the system runs over the cp anyway. because cp=dec burn value. and the last burn event was also with dec. e.g. burn 1000cp get a ticket, or so
I think CP is a relic that they're trying to bury. It's been removed from gameplay and even the card burn for DEC mechanic makes very little sense anymore. It's not enough to make anyone care about it and it goes against the concept of DEC being only a derivative of SPS. Now with Soulbound reward cards that have no DEC burn value, I think it's pretty much dead.
no idea what you are talking about and what it has to do with it. the cp is there so you can see how much dec you get when you burn the card. that will always be there no matter what you think of it.
and with soulbound cards it will also be there when you unbind them. it has to be written on the card how much dec you get for burning. no matter if this mechanic is still used in the game or not
Collection Power wasn't mentioned in this proposal as I wrote it or as Matt amended it. And you're the only person I've seen in the comments talking about it.
As of now, the pre-proposal period is over and this can't be edited so this is all moot. If you decide to put up your own proposal that includes it, I'd be more than willing to consider voting for it if it makes sense.
there was talk about using the old event. there dec was burned. and the cp is the dec value of the card. so i think matt will do it that way. but we'll see ;)
apart from that, in your proposal there is nothing more at all. it only says that cards are burned instead of dec.
your quantities are under
``All the following is no longer an active part of the proposal''
so no longer valid
I completely understand and agree with the concept, but I will need more information on the projected outcome of this implementation to approve. Please excuse me if I overlooked the answers: How many players can we expect to burn how many cards? Are we setting a limit per day, week, season, and/or an ultimate maximum? Do enough players already hold a viable amount of cards to burn to not be left behind, and if not, will they see enough value risen on their decks to make them worth holding while the others burn?
Whales playing whale games.
I was going to vote yes to this but there's a key part missing from it for me. That part being reward cards. If reward cards are included in this we are going to have bot army farming yet again. If reward cards are required to have a DEC burn in order to "mint" them to become tradable, burned etc then sure as the value still holds.
Makes sense. I think I just assumed it would be a given that soul bound cards wouldn't be usable but I can see where it would have been beneficial to mention it directly. I think Matt is going to make his own proposal for this later when he has more time to give details.
Would actually want to see this in upcoming new set of packs, rather than changing the mechanics of a currently existing pack. People bought Riftwatcher packs considering different factors, and being devalued by another set of cards is not part of it.
Interesting proposal. I like the burning cards for packs idea in general, although I would have done it for a separate set.
Then again I feel like you are correct, why not just try it with what we have.
You have my vote!
Yeah, I was thinking about how much work it is to make a set and how this is pretty experimental still. I like the end of this set as a proof of concept but I get what you're saying too. Thanks for the support 😀
Generally I like the idea of letting people trade in cards to get other cards. On the surface it looks like a reasonable ratio to me. I would like to hear if @yabapmatt has any objections to this proposal, especially since its his job to make sure everything is in balance. Plus he would know the time it would take to create such a program.
I think this is a bold proposal and very creative. I'll be looking to what others have to say. Well done @imno, even if it doesn't pass then you've created the first real discussion on this topic.
Thanks Dave! At the very least I was hoping to spark the conversation. I DM'd Yabapmatt a few days ago hoping to get an opinion before it went live but he's a busy man and probably gets lots of DMs. I also tried speaking to WB to see about how long it would take but he's also a busy dude. Hopefully yaba will chime in here.
I'm really sorry about that - I'm not sure how I missed your DM. I get a lot of scam messages and I miss some real ones in the shuffle. In the future please feel free to message me again after a day or so if you don't hear back.
Regarding this proposal - I think it's a great idea generally, and I am going to write up some thoughts and post it here probably over the weekend.
No problem. I factored a very low chance that my message would cut through all the spam you must get. Thanks for the write up. I sent you another Discord DM about it.
I like the general idea of burning assets for other products.
However, personally I think we should let the Riftwatchers burn like they are. Tt's actually a really good thing to have rare cards that can become expensive.
The more examples of rare expensive cards that players see, the more willing they'll be to go ahead and buy some of the current cards/packs in hopes of similar value increases.
So I'd be all for a future set that is only available by burning previous cards, but will probably vote against this specific proposal because it involves saving Riftwatchers packs which were overproduced and are currently being burned down to a more reasonable circulation.
Thanks for supporting the idea even if you might not ultimately support rift watchers as the vehicle. RiftWatchers as the vehicle is tricky. It's been out a while and people have different connections to it. For me I don't care about the set and would just assume watch it burn if I didn't think it would be better used to burn far more cards.
What I want more than anything is for players to want to buy Rebellion packs. I want the team to stay afloat. I think the biggest deterrent to buying packs is the idea that cards are infinitely inflationary.
So I'm going to push back on your logic here. While I think cards holding their value or increasing in value is important for pack demand, I'd say that's negated when everyone just watches the packs burn to no fanfare. Did it really hold value if no one is buying it?
I think they will take that same lack of enthusiasm with them to the next set if anything short of skyrocketing prices happens to RiftWatchers. And I think what's actually going to happen to riftwatchers is that many people who bought those will start selling them to get funds for rebellion so their prices will fall to their lowest levels as rebellion gets closer instead of popping because the set is sold out.
There is no catalyst on the horizon for a spike in Rift Watcher prices between now and Rebellion and its doubtful we get one before the following set because that's when they'll cycle out of modern.
Ultimately, I think RiftWatchers has already seen its peak and its not going to inspire anyone to buy more packs (its not even inspiring people now to buy riftwatchers packs now). But setting a precedent that shows cards aren't infinitely inflationary, burning a tons of them, and watching riftwatchers go out with some demand? That might inspire some buying.
Anyway, that's my thoughts. I can see it both ways but I think watching RW burn to no fanfare could be a disaster coming into rebellion.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think you have it backward. When people see that excess packs are being burnt, they'll be more likely to buy future packs knowing that if there are too many, chances are that they'll be burned until the supply matches the demand.
They big problem with CL is that there were so many sales and promos that actually sold the packs for WAY less than the $4.00 in store price. This caused a massive over printing of the cards because they were so cheap, and now we have a huge hole to climb out of.
Riftwatcher prices should not skyrocket short term, I'm talking long term, a year or more from sell/burn out of the set.
Seeing Riftwatchers burn WITHOUT a sale or promo is about the only thing that will give me any confidence to buy any Rebellion packs, unless Rebellion has a built in burn/expiration right from the start. I'd also like to have a guarantee that the Rebellion prices will not be sabotaged by fantastic sales like they did with CL. (Basically what you're proposing here for Riftwatchers)
For most of what you're saying, you won't hear much argument from me. I voted against or rallied against every sale they had for CL. I've written extensively about why the team should purge kickstarter sales methods from their company DNA. I was also a lonely voice begging them to reconsider the CL print rate when it was just a rumor that it might 10x untamed. I voted for both the CL and the RW pack burns with glee.
That said, CL was overprinted on the first day and it would have happened if there was a sale or not. Too many people thought packs would sell out in 15 minutes and they'd be able to turn around and scalp them for instant riches. Once that didn't happen and demand died, every subsequent sale just made it predictably worse.
On the other hand, RW aren't overprinted. If this proposal passed, by the time it goes live there might be 500-600k packs left. Add that to the 900k already sold and you get about 1.5 million packs. That's untamed.
But what it could do with 500k packs is undo a lot of the damage from CL sales and overprints. Clearly the following math is weird because there's different BCX burns for different rarities of card but let's look at the 200 bcx for a dumb extreme example.
200BCX is 40 packs of cards. That means in the most extreme example, we'd be burning 40 CL packs worth of cards to add one RW pack to the world. 40 * 500k RW packs is 20 million CL packs worth of cards burned. Thats basically all of CL and its reward cards gone 😂
Clearly that can't happen for a myriad of reasons but let's average it way down to 50 BCX burned because some will be legendaries and epics. that means 10 packs of CL burned per RW pack brought into the world. That would be 5 million CL packs melted by adding 500k RW packs. That could matter greatly. By definition, A LOT more people have and are disenchanted about their CL cards value than have RW cards and packs.
Raising the value of CL and making it less of a swamp could raise morale and make people more willing to reach into their wallets for rebellion. I don't think RW has that same effect on so many players. I mean, you're a top ten holder of RW packs but would I lose a bet if I said you have more wrapped up in CL than you do RW?
I did some math and on average across all rarities, you would burn 13-14 packs worth of cards per RW pack. I hadn't looked at it from this perspective, and I have to say I'm not so against the idea now.
And yeah, I have a lot more in CL that RW. But that hadn't crossed my mind until you mentioned it. I'm here for the long term like you, and always try to vote in a way that makes sense long term. On principle I'm generally against anything that just shifts value around in the ecosystem from one asset to another. Which is why I'd much rather see a situation where the excess cards get burnt for a new asset instead of using a current pack set.
what is this? a botfarm feeding? or who owns the most cheap reward cards? 2 dollars for 2 riftwatcher packs.
Agree. No BCX burning!
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @imno!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-09-27 09:23 UTC
I don't hate this idea. The DAO can do what it wants with Riftwatchers packs as it's the sole beneficiary of them. From a technical standpoint... my biggest concern would be how long it would take the team to build this and what work it would detract from. Agg has made it clear that Land 1.5 is the priority and nothing is going to distract from that and this is something that there is no basis in the code for so it would likely be a complete build up from scratch. All of that said, I'll vote to support it, but I'm not optimistic it will/can be executed in a time line sufficient to really matter. Perhaps the DAO can offer its reserve packs for said cards and actually collect the cards to build scholar accounts or trial accounts or something. Anyway just some thoughts, glad to see a new proposal regardless how it goes.
Thanks for the support. I had similar concerns and I attempted to contact weirdbeard and yaba several days ago but I was unable to get either of their ears. Because the time is ticking on RW I decided to just put it out there and see. I'm hopeful that land 1.5 comes out prior to the 14 days this would take to pass but it's going to take the time it takes.
Even if this fails (or passes and is not possible), what I'm really hoping for is to spark some new ideas about how we manage the card supply in the future.
Nice to see your proposal too!
i would consider the proposal inadmissible. because it doesn't say for how many cp i get how many tickets. do i get 1 ticket for a 5 cp card or 1 ticket for 10 000cp . without this detail i don't understand how anyone can vote for it at all.....