e518c1bdba437b6e84f0c3047b28473351a8824e
I would like to put forth a proposal to the community of staked SPS holders to require DEC or DEC-B to be burned in order to allow soulbound cards to be used as workers on land in the Secret of Praetoria expansion. This would apply to both soulbound reward cards and to gladiator cards, as well as to any new soulbound cards released in the future. The cost to "manifest" a card to allow it to work on land is proposed to be 2x the collection power of the card, not counting the max level CP bonus.
UPDATE: Up to 50% of the cost of "manifesting" a card will be able to be paid using VOUCHER tokens at a value of 200 DEC per VOUCHER spent.
The proposed costs to "manifest" 1 BCX and max-level cards of each rarity and foil are shown in the table below for easy reference:
| Rarity | Foil | BCX | Manifestation Cost (DEC/DEC-B) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Common | Regular | 1 | 10 |
| Common | Gold | 1 | 250 |
| Common | Regular | 400 | 4,000 |
| Common | Gold | 38 | 9,500 |
| Rare | Regular | 1 | 40 |
| Rare | Gold | 1 | 1,000 |
| Rare | Regular | 115 | 4,600 |
| Rare | Gold | 22 | 22,000 |
| Epic | Regular | 1 | 200 |
| Epic | Gold | 1 | 5,000 |
| Epic | Regular | 46 | 9,200 |
| Epic | Gold | 10 | 50,000 |
| Legendary | Regular | 1 | 1,000 |
| Legendary | Gold | 1 | 25,000 |
| Legendary | Regular | 11 | 11,000 |
| Legendary | Gold | 4 | 100,000 |
Please note that this does NOT mean that the cards will become un-soulbound or transferrable. This cost will ONLY allow the cards to be used as workers on land, however it will be applied to the cost to make the cards un-soulbound and transferrable in the future when that option is available. For example, if, in the future, cards cost 2x CP or less to make them transferrable, then any cards for which this amount has been paid to manifest them on land will automatically become transferrable, as the total amount necessary has already been paid. If it will cost more than 2x CP to make the cards transferrable in the future, then any cards for which payment has been made to manifest them on land will only require the difference in cost to be paid to make them transferrable.
Finally, cards that have had the cost paid to manifest on land will not be able to be combined with any cards that have not had this cost paid. An indicator showing whether or not a particular card has had the DEC cost paid to manifest as a worker on land will be added to the card details page and the card combine action will be updated accordingly.
Reasoning for this Proposed Change
Initially, I thought it would be fine to allow soulbound cards to be used as workers on land without any burning of DEC because each player account only has a relatively small number of soulbound cards that would only be able to cover a small number of land plots. It has since been brought to my attention that users with large numbers of accounts, all separately earning soulbound reward cards, would simply be able to split up their land plots among their many accounts and thereby eliminate the need to get any other cards to work their land.
One of the main purposes of the Secret of Praetoria land expansion was to provide additional utility for the card NFTs and to "soak up" the huge amount of non-soulbound reward cards and Chaos Legion cards that had flooded the ecosystem over the past year or two. Additionally, the reward cards were changed to be soulbound (requiring burning DEC to become transferrable) to avoid a similar flood of easily farmable cards going forward. Therefore, if we allow soulbound cards to be used on land with no additional cost then we go a long way towards negating the intended benefits of both of these changes.
To provide some context, there are currently a total of about 32M BCX of the soulbound reward cards in existence, and I expect that number will roughly double over the next 5 months to 64M BCX and continue from there. That is more than all of Chaos Legion which is at about 47M total BCX and quickly approaching the previous reward card set (which was massively overprinted and still hurting the economy) which is at 83M BCX in total.
That growth is fine as long as the cards are soulbound and have a cost to make transferrable and extract value from, but if they are able to be used on land without any cost then it allows players to unlock the value of those cards without putting in value and will once again add huge inflationary pressures to the card pool and the economy as a whole.
For anyone who has not farmed or otherwise obtained a large number of soulbound cards, this proposed change should be a no-brainer. For anyone who is hoping to use a significant number of soulbound cards on land, I urge you to consider the effect on the overall, long term game economy - which will ultimately be what provides value to all Splinterlands assets over time - ahead of your own short-term benefits.
Hi @yabapmatt.sps , thanks for the proposal. I think there is a need to address the Soulbound reward card usage on land and discuss how eventually the unbinding process would work, however, I have some ideas on how it could be better.
I echo a lot of the feelings that @milomex shared in his comment.
After a player acquires a max soulbound card any more wouldn't have any usage without paying to manifest that card...Furthermore I think it would lead to a lot of frustration since at some point (champ) players would earn reward cards which would have zero usage without paying additional DEC.My solution would be to allow SB reward cards on land only if they are combined at their max level AND released at 1X their burn value. This would have a variety of beneficial effects on the economy.
I would simply allow to burn any further soulbound card of a type as soon one card has reached max level.
I have voted YES to the pre-proposal @yabapmatt.sps ; however, I suggest the MAX SB option suggested here by several individuals. Please make this edit to the proposal. I think then it will have most community support.
Again my proposed edits:
I also support this @azircon ... good edit and think it fixes a few issues and makes this even better!!!
I would simply allow to burn any further soulbound card of a type as soon one card has reached max level.
I have lots of completely useless double soulbound cards.
This i believe is 100% correct, locking cards to only be useable after max level (which i believe was the idea originally for trading/unlocking them as well), would prevent bot farms from doing anything but using the cards to play. ding5002000 having 100 bcx of a common doesn't affect anyone else. The amount of reward cards distributed is irrelevant to number of bcx owned per person.
Surely bots are the most likely accounts to reach max level first
If the intention was to absorb older rewards cards, why are we allowing soulbound cards to work land at all? Seems like a make work project and more “technical debt”… If the soulbound cards are a problem, maybe they should just be excluded until they are unlockable. I just don’t see the need for a half-measure?
I'd also support this. Simplicity is valuable in and of itself.
Make it 3x the burn price to fully unlock; allowing transfer/sale/delegation/land.
No. Listen to what you are suggesting. Players joined the game and invested loads of money knowing they would earn tradable rewards. Then they changed the rules so the rewards aren't tradable, now apparently we can pay a fee to make them tradable? We already invested thousands of dollars for the privilege of earning tradable rewards! I'm tired of change after change impacting the value of ordinary players cards because bots are still ruining the game, and then proposals being made to nerf our value instead of dealing with the bots.
Thanks for the proposal, Matt.
I support the primary idea behind it.
But, I think the price is too high. 25k DEC, at peg 25$, would put a GFL at around 70% cost of the cheapest non-soulbound CL GFL (35$). With the latter already being non-soulbound, thus transferable, burnable, etc.
So my obvious question in that regards would be: what are the costs to make soulbound cards actually non-soulbound. My guess would be that this would be similar to 25k DEC on top, or maybe even more, putting the baseline to 50k DEC (50$ at peg). I'd like to have this defined now, rather than later.
My other concern with this approach, is that it disincentivizes buying energy (burning of DEC/DEC-B for it) for battle rewards.
Due to the low SPS price and asset prices in general, the rewards are already lacking in value vs. the money spent for energy. With SB reward cards now also being possibly more expensive than other reward cards, I think people will stop buying energy after the first days of the season (after pool has been drained again) and/or after they've reached the full set, which could be much earlier than the end of print.
While I don't have a direct path to action, I would like to see more focus on primary account holder benefits, players who focus on a single or max 2-3 accounts and regardless whether they're a minnow, dolphin or whale.
I believe the biggest reason we're having this issue right now, is because people are abusing low rental costs/SB rewards with multi-account bot setups to farm the SB reward cards. While primary account holders, usually just try to min-max with a single account, which is far less invasive to the card inflation and market in general.
It appears you're letting your Hive Power go to waste... How about Delegating some of it to me for a week or two...??? I could be passing out some awesome up-votes...
Things are getting too complicated. Just don't allow them on land. If ever, at least until they can really be unbound.
Agree, it's just making things complicated more than achieving any actual goal
Agree. Focus development efforts on letting us actually stake our cards on our land.
I have 192k CP in soulbound rewards, you want me to pay almost 400$ to use something I already earned... just on land... How many kidneys do yall want so I can sell/trade them? I thought web 3 was supposed to be different and I thought projects rewarded folks for sticking with them through the bear market but yall just want to turn us up by our ankles and shake us for loose change. Just exclude them from land if this is how you are going to do it
This. So much this.
Well said
Also while I do have the tone of an asshole (sorry cant really be helped) I do love and trust yall very much so please dont take this as me being angry with yall as people, just the situation.
I don't think web 3 is supposed to be different in terms of how much things cost. I think its different in terms of where the money goes when you spend it.
Well my point in saying "I thought web3 was supposed to be different" was more about being able to sell things earned in a game vs how it is in most web 2 games like Fortnite where you cant sell anything you earn... Thats what I mean, ownership implies choice and we have no choices with soulbound cards.
What I find surprising is the amount of bcx in PACKS vs what we give up in rewards.
You used the example of 47M in Chaos Legion.
Current Reward Cards are 32M --> going to 64M in 5 months.
Packs are revenue-earning, go to the bottom line of your business.
Rewards cards are not.
I think you need to address several things as a business:
As a bronze-level player, I have been able to "reap" more benefits from this SB-reward card release because of the FREE SUMMONERS. Summoners should never be part of the reward card set. Most of my CL summoners are at Bronze LEVEL. I have silver league SB summoners already.
I will vote with my 1800 SPS, but I hope people can see that wisdom is not often related to how many SPS one has.
I fully agree, for to long rewards have been over printed and also very strong in battles.
Rewards are still being overprinted and are still very strong in battle.
This causes core sets to lose value and is the reason we have all these complicated band aids to fix past 'mistakes of over printing'
I agree with what several others have thoughtfully offered, that we seem to be repeating a pattern over and over again that goes like this:
As Pandasquad said,
I second this and I would add that the band-aid reactions often do more harm than good in that they burn up valuable resources and it leaches a bit more confidence from the community. Of course changes and adaptations are necessary, but this should be more of the exception and not the rule.
Could we have just stayed the course? The rapid pivoting in decision making from one thing to the next is taking a toll, it is off-putting to not only players, but to human beings. People must feel safe to remain attached, period. Reliability, consistency and predictability provide this. While frequent, erratic and sudden changes create a lack of safety over time, and erodes confidence simply because it is too unpredictable and unreliable to sustain trust. Again, changing things will happen, but frequently changing things, applying complex band-aids over other band-aids feels janky, unstable and it is disconcerting.
YabaMatt, what you have created in Splinterlands, at the core is good, it is really, really good. The authentic values and your "why", raison d'etre (hope that is spelled correctly) for creating this game and teaching others about decentralization is doing goooood. IT IS HELPING people learn blockchain speak, play in WEB3 values, practice and try-on the experience of decentralization. This DAO, these proposals, the discussions here and now, and disagreements are important exchanges and skills. As we come to know one another through our differences, true intimacy is not garnered in our likeness but through our differences. It's tough to stay in the conversation, and listen to a starkly different opinion with judging the person, "othering" them, but it is a vitally important skill and something that we really need on the planet right now. However, I think you get distracted with noise of the community, "problems" in the game or tokenomics and you forget your primary focus for the Splinterlands. This needs to be honed, remembered frequently and honored above all. Sweating the details, reactively making changes is compromising your message and people are missing your point because you are allowing yourself to get distracted. I say that with a kind respectful voice, not a mean nasty one :-)
Focus as Holozor stated. Focus. I believe Azrican said this on the Peoples Guild podcast as well. Stay the course, eyes on the target. People believe in you and your basic plan and the values upon which you founded this SplinterLands. It IS what makes Splinterlands so compelling and magnetic. Stay the course. Would that have been so bad, continuing to overprint something already overprinted? Or is it better where we stand now? I think there needs to be a longer breathing space between genuinely good ideas - thoughts - and - acting on those thoughts. It seems to me from the outside looking in, that this exact iteration of reactive decisions and sudden diversions from the intentional course is a repeating and perhaps a costly pattern that might be beneficial to examine.
The sudden change from overprinting Chaos Legion Reward cards to Soul Bound Reward Cards was actually a large project which took considerable time and resources to complete. And it bumped the team off other planned targets. How many hours do you think it took to come up with the cards, create designs, lore, UX, code/ Dev resources etc.? Likely it was not a couple of hours or even days. To now change the OverPrinted soul bound cards to un-soul bound cards is just a lot of running around and around. and it is unnecessarily distracting resources from your target... I know the unbounding is well-intended, and it simultaneously it is a another interaction of this side-show pattern.
Do you see what I mean. Where are we going...Where is the goal post? Is this the goal, the side-shows? I don't think it is but perhaps I am missing the point.
All my respect to you and A for what you have created in this game and what you stand for. It is great stuff.
This post is everything. I am sick and tired, as someone who has only been in the game for about 7 months, of seeing the community and the DAO forced to pick up the mess engendered by the team's irresponsible stewardship of the project. The ubiquity of unforced errors and undelivered promises that the team has sustained is what will lead this game to die. Aside from the idea of double taxation inherent to forcing us to "liberate" our "rewards," the use of vouchers in this proposal will do nothing but provide further sustenance to the marine mammals who so problematically provide cover for the never-ending missteps of the Splinterlands team. This game is beautiful but the recent direction in which the project has been run is an utter disgrace. Had I done my research on the team, rather than simply loving the game from the start, I would not be here. I am however here and wasting these keystrokes in a quixotic effort to defy said marine mammals as I do very much love this game. This proposal is replete with self-interest and moral hazard, and does nothing to benefit the median player. DEC sinks are coming - it's the team's responsibility to build them - not the DAO's. If new player experience and onboarding are priorities, we are not only shooting ourselves in the foot but setting the house ablaze by standing in a pile of petrol.
True!
There are ways to fix this.
Therefore reward cards are "meh", but they pair nicely with CORE cards.
They just work better with them because of their abilities.
The concept of unlocking Soul Bounds will be another area that is already starting to drive some people away. Should it cost $5, $10, or $25 to unlock a reward card?
I understand the balancing acts between Play2Earn, Free2Play, and Pay2Win. Free2Play should only be used to let people test out without ever earning. Pay2Win is fine in TCG. In essence, the max level card is pay2win so that is BY design (and a good design feature).
Voted against with multiple accounts. Can we start delivering before thinking of things to get funds from the user pockets? The real user count drops daily, and I would rather see focus on that, than on DEC leeching.
So I'm not the only one who feels that the grab in our pocket is no longer in proportion to what is delivered 😒
Well, the last proposals have been to burn from our pockets. Land has been postponed again. I understand that there is a lot going on, development takes time and costs.
The thing is that the first 1-2 years, it has been delivered highly, the main factor that pulled the chain forward have been Aggy and Matt, with Hive Engine and Splinterlands. That brought a lot of new users and different views on the possibility of this chain.
The past year was rather different, as with growth come challenges and one of the biggest is to grasp the real feedback, not only the yes sayer fanboys. I would say that there are between 1000-2000 real account owners behind the many accounts that are grinding on the daily basis. Focus shall be on keeping these entertained and on growth.
Voting for this because I don't see this as a fix to a problem rather than DEC leech but also also, I completely agree with the sentiment here. I want to see a lot more about delivering gameplay and a lot less about DEC and the economy. It's way disproportionate lately.
1000% This.
Here are my thoughts:
One of the main purposes of land is to give older sets a place to retire, generating a deflationary effect on card supply and helping old assets hold value.
So, why allow the current editions to work land at all?
My suggestion would be to have it so any card/set that can still be bought in-store (Riftwatchers, Gladius) or earned from battling (current soulbound reward set) is excluded from land work completely. Or alternatively have a hefty efficiency penalty until it is out of print. This is a much simpler, straight forward system that fits better with the goals land is meant to achieve.
sorry but the ``main purpose'' has not been true for a long time. with the pp cap which was introduced you can reach the pp cap with untamed cards so alpha and beta cards have become pretty useless for land.....
I can't support this at all the cost is too high. I earned those cards and while I don't plan to use many of them this is a crazy ask of us. Not only don't we earn cards that have value now we have to pay to use them.
Sorry but this proposal is BS. Too bad my 50K SPS won't get the "No" vote anywhere. Gotta keep on buying SPS... :-)
I'll vote no too
I love this attitude! If it spreads to others, then no matter which side of any issue we are on, we will have an amazing platform.
Go get 'em @ghostlybg !!!
I mean, to let one card work on land, you could pay for a SPS proposal, if it was a max GFL. I say we need more quality proposals. This is quality from a mechhanics purpose, but I feel it adds complexity to the dev work which is not required. I'd rather it just be the development of the "un soul-bounding" them, and by extension, that element allows them to work on land.
Hey @holoz0r, I'm not sure what you prefer.
A. Keep soulbound reward cards off land?
B. Enable soulbound reward cards to be worked on land?
I see the choice as one of the two at this time. I'd like to know you thoughts on which of those 2 choices you support.
B. Allow them to work.
I am more concerned about the current DAO Proposal to use stable coins to purchase DEC. I urge you to reconsider your Yes vote. I've left at least half a dozen comments on various posts outlining my concerns and agreeing with the concerns of others.
To me, it represents the single worst decision the DAO may be about to make in Splinterlands history. I really love this game, but this most recent proposal reconfirms all the concerns I had in my lengthy "departure" post that I wrote recently.
Please reconsider your position.
Ok thanks for your answer of B. I personally would do better with B as I have a lot of soulbound cards, but I don't think its fair to those that don't. On top of that, I am pretty sold on the idea that burn value of the cards should be infused in them so that they are net DEC neutral. (1x is ok with me, but not less)... So anything that is 1x+ would get my vote, but definitely I wouldn't vote for just letting them be farmed and thrown onto the market or burned.
Also, I did reply to you on the stable coin vote as well, when I get your reply back I will respond after I see your thoughts.
What about burning soulbound reward cards for "soulbound power" and this is account bound. The soulbound power would be equivalent to the card power of the card. They can use this soulbound power to unlock their cards in replace of the manifestation in DEC. So to unlock 1 gold foil legendary soulbound they can burn 2 gold foil legendary soulbound to get the necessary soulbound power to unlock their soulbound card. This way we can reduce the amount of soulbound reward card supply as well~.
Too complex
O.O Helle Mr Holoz0r :P well i figure they will probably do something similar for unbounding no?
It could be an option. Stake it on land, and eventually it becomes free, no longer soulbound.
Or, pay the DEC fee to get it unbound. I wrote a comment separately.
Ok fair enough :c. Have you changed your mind about quitting tho? everythigns coming its going to blow up. It's not the time to quit!
My feelings are that if this proposal passes, my likelihood of quitting would be far greater.
oh no :( guys everyone say no to this proposal so holo doesnt quit TT. I think it just needs to be adjusted the numbers or providing an alternative solution. It's unfortunate that some big bot farms are ruining the experience for the whole game and every change seems to be geared towards fighting bots/bot farms. :P And im a botter myself but I won't mind if they banned it. I still play all brawls manually and pretty confident in my skills~ but lately these bots have a different say on those skills xD. Anyways it wouldn't be good if soulbound cards can leech rewards from land right. I think it already has good enough value earning from ranked play, tournament play and even brawls.
its complicated, but a great idea!
:P im sure it can be done. we have guild power now~ itll be something similar. instead of upgrading building will be used to unluck for land / unbound in future
Here's a novel game idea, that might also increase land liquidity. In order for a Soulbound card to become manifest, it must spend a certain period of time staked to land (without an unstake) - meaning it essentially has to do a period of "servitude" under the original owner before it can manifest and be traded.
We could then also track a variable like (days_Staked) for each card and award those who have the longest service histories without movement in the future. (perhaps a logarithmic bonus the longer it has been staked, up to a limit?)
My problem with this proposal is that i would hurt the ranked rewards.
After a player acquired a maxed soulbound card, any more copies of that card wouldnt have any usage without paying to manifest that card.
This especially would hurt players in high elo and those who buy a lot of energy, since they will be the first ones to have maxed reward cards.
Furthermore i think it would lead to a lot of frustration, since at some point (champ) player would earn reward cards, which would have zero usage without paying additional DEC.
What i would suggest in addition to the proposal, would be to make maxed soulbound cards usable on land without having to manifest them.
This would give player an incentive to earn more reward cards (after already owning a maxed copy), while also preventing players with multiple accounts from gaining an advantage.
It wouldnt be easily exploitable by one player with many different accounts, since each account would need to play in high elo to earn enough bcx to combine them in a maxed card.
In addition to that with the introduction of sps staking requirements botting with many different accounts will take another hit, particularly bots that would play in champ, since they would need a high amount of sps to earn enough chests to obtain maxed soulbound cards.
Any non maxed soulbound card would still be needed to be manifested to be usable on land.
I would have much preferred soulbound cards not being usable on land at all, even though I personally have a GFL itching to be used there. IMHO this serie should only be unbound in a year or so when the next reward cards are there, and the price for unbounding should be DEC = CP + vouchers, with vouchers thus retaining their original function of rewarding those who stake in SPS.
Having said all this, I still haven’t made my mind up how to vote for this proposal. Convince me…
At the moment, I'm inclined to vote no due to the price. It's important to make land accessible to players who DO have plots to work, and the price wall is already quite high to populate and maintain a plot. Asking 2x the CP is just going to generate more salt and potentially push away more players who are currently on the fence.
I'm all for using DEC to unlock SB cards, but think it should be at a fair cost, ie the CP of that card. I also like the idea or requiring one voucher per card.
I would vote for this if it were = CP + 1 voucher per card.
I'm sorry, I cannot support this. Many people have echoed the sentiments I have. If the playerbase (Dao) votes for this and then complains of endless money sinks, then the jokes on us but it's more likely no one will bother wasting the DEC on a soulbound to farm and just purchase regular cards to stake...RIP rewards cards if we have to pay to for them.
I get the our DEV's are hurting finacially until flywheel (hopefully wen land) due to a current oversaturation of DEC (We were all warned of this by many wise heads yet we all rushed headlong into DEC-B) and Cards and we need a way to get this flywheel happening.
Here is my counter sugestion: Why not create another avenue for DEC sinks E.G Create Physical Set's to sell to the Gen pop but the only way they can purchase is with DEC or SPS? Get this game out into the physical realm. It's high time we showed the RL the wonderful world of Splinterlands and the true potential of NFT's and Blockchain gaming. Get physical sets made, sell them only in game currency and we all win when this game goes mainstream. Better yet, we allow physical buyers the chance to soul-bound their owned cards with unique identifiers and then PAY to unlock them to unlock earning of rewards if they wish to contribute to the ecosystem. I think a proposal in this area is a must. Heck, I'd even be willing to vote some of the DAO funds to get this show on the road.
I understand the DEC/voucher sink you are putting in place here but let's be honest, why would I spend so much on soulbound card that have super low PP instead of just buying legendary gold foil that will provide way more PP for my buck? (I do understand that scarcity will make them unavailable after a while but as much as I love many of the current soulbound card, if they are good, I will play with them, not pay to then have to pay even more to just stake them away)
Again, I'm not against the idea since I don't see a world where I plan to pay that much to unbound any of my souldbound cards(unless it's value is at least double or more of the original unlocking cost on the market).
Thing is, it's good to add more DEC sink in the game but we need to stop having paywalls everywhere vs the rewards that keep going lower and lower and the ways to earn money in the game are gradually reducing as price of all token keep tanking. When I earn a new card, I want it to be = more value and not = I need to pay 2x the value upfront to maybe later be able to sell it with a small profit since that don't make it a reward card but it become a card I simply bought.
I mean, if I work for a living but when I get my paycheck, I need to spend X% upfront of my paycheck value to have the right to get my paycheck, all I see here is my income losing value.
I do agree with the idea of unlocking soulbound card but it feel super sketchy that I get "Free card" as reward for all the money I already invested in the game but to have access to this new value, I need to buy the card to use it? Something is not right about it even if logically it feel like a good idea to get rid of DEC on the paper, the reality is that us, the players, get more paywalls and less real value for playing the game.
This is a TERRIBLE idea. DEC-B created needless DEC inflation due to the fact that vouchers could be burned for DEC. This is a repeat, which would see large stakeholders use vouchers to unlock their cards, resulting in far fewer DEC being burned to achieve this.
I cannot support this proposal as a result of this update.
This is a partial solution to a Greater Issue? If Alpha get a 10X and Beta get 5X the Untamed get a 2X on production on Land this Proposal continues the Mistakes of the Past, This only make sense If Alpha gains 5X, Beta gains 3X, Untamed 2X, Chaos 1X and all move up as new releases are introduced. The Compounding effect of the higher numbers will break Land, I will support the Proposal If you can look at the production Multipliers for the Card Sets and set my Mind at Rest! not going to tag you Yaba just seeing if you are aware.
I see the purpose of this proposal, but why is it just being addressed now and not when the concept was being formed? all this looks like is yet another cash grab in the almighty "get dec to peg at any cost, but that cost must be from the user" war. When you decided to take sellable reward cards away from people and give them soul bound cards, how did you not see this as being a potential problem. its things like this that keeps new players away from this ecosystem because it feels like we have been getting nothing delivered lately except for ways to get yet even more money from people. You pushed this whole land idea for the last like 2 years yet in that time period have added additional costs to the structure more than the things you have delivered on. It is not a good look to log on everyday to a new restriction being put in place on top of people that requires new money to be injected after users have dished out 10s of thousands or more and now have to keep injecting. eventually people will just get tired and decide the cost does not justify the usage. And yet again this penalizes new or newer players hard....really hard. Old players got to get packs at 2$ a pop and their cards reflect that in the PP that card allows, Lower the pp value on soulbound if need be but stop trying to make new rules after the fact that straight up robs people in hopes you can prop dec up.
The update to vouchers seems like a great deal for whales and node holders, but it's still a pretty bad deal for new, low, and mid level players. Even with a voucher discount, the cost to unlock an already earned card for the average player is still absurd. Sure would be nice if we could get past all these money grabs and manipulative tokenomics.
i was against the proposal from the beginning, because i don't think it's fair that i have to pay again for my cards, which i can only earn with my investment, and certainly not at this exorbitant price, which even exceeds the market price of cards from packs.
I have at least the sense, the theory behind it can understand. dec burn = flywheel start = we all benefit.
but now it became clear again what kind of selfish people take influence here. now people want to earn with vouchers on my earned reward cards. there is no point that you pay for your own cards vouchers. it does not help the flywheel, just nothing except that a few people want to enrich themselves again......
this is corruption before all our eyes, you make concessions to certain people so you can get their votes at the expense of all of us.....
I disagree with this on several levels. I'll start by saying that I have no land so it's irrelevant for me. I still disagree and want to give my opinion.
It is mostly irrelevant. Even without an extra cost, I'm very confident less than 1% of the cards working on land will be soulbound. This is coming from someone who plays in diamond/champion. Most of my commons are at level 7 or 8. Most GF commons are a bit lower than the regular foil. The exception is GF Wily Coyotian which is at level 9 with 6 extra copies. My rares are at level 5 or 6. One is still at 4. Some GF are higher level than regular foil and vice versa. Epics are at 2, 3, or 4. Most of them, the regular foil is the higher level. Most of them are at level 2, some are at level 3 and two are still at level 1. I have a few GFs here. So, if I earn at the same pace (this will be important for later), I will surely max most of these cards, in 5 months.
So, assuming a player who's playing at the top leagues should be able to max most of their soulbound cards, is that really a problem? Are they really going to stop playing with some of these cards to use on land when they can buy multiple max copies of cards with similar effects on the market without hurting their gameplay? Unless they have a max regular and max GF copy, this won't come into play. And, if they do have both maxed, they should be rewarded for it!
It doesn't matter if someone has 1000 or 10k accounts farming rewards. They can't put all those copies together. Are they gonna work their lands with silver level monsters? You're saying that someone invested money creating all those accounts, bought all those lands and they are gonna save a fraction of that cost, when cards are so cheap, to use silver level monsters on their land? And if there's anyone with many bot accounts in champion, congratulations, you deserve to use those cards on land.
We're assuming rewards will stay the same for the next months. They won't. Thanks to the brilliant (that's sarcasm) numbers of the SPS requirements, most players will earn a fraction of what they were earning and/or will drop leagues, which also decreases their earnings. Cards will be earned at a much slower pace. And, when it comes to bot farms, the SPS requirements apply to every single account. Are they gonna invest/rent enough SPS for all of them to keep earning at the same pace? If they do, again, they deserve to use their soulbound cards at no extra cost.
The cost is absurd! What worries me the most is that the same logic is already being applied to unlocking the cards to be tradable in the future. The cost should be exactly the burn value, no more, no less. Making the cost equal to the burn value makes sure no new DEC is minted with those cards. That's enough, you don't need to put a huge paywall on unlocking those cards. If you do go with this manifest cost, make it equal to the burn value and, when it's time to make them unlockable, that's already paid.
Price seems too high and this should work also as a pre unlock for when the cards become transferrable, so that player doesn't need to pay twice. Voting against it as it is.
Oh yes, this is what new players need. Newbies can't transfer their earned cards, sell them, and now they'll be forced to pay for them in lands?
Old cards and old players get huge bonuses. Although it would be great for the game to focus its efforts on attracting new players. But the largest number of the SPS is in the hands of old players, so it is clear what decisions will be made.
I'm not going to repeat the points. I will point out though, that if i had any idea about the shady things Aggy and Matt are willing to pull in order to fill their pockets and the pockets of their buddies from Alpha days, i would have taken my 15k and invested elsewhere. But as it stands, my original 15k and the additional investment i've made since 2021 is now worth a fraction of what it was, and cashing out without a massive loss is not really something i'm considering...but i am definitely regretting the trust i put in the team. We can replay nearly every choice since someone decide that 15M packs was the perfect number for CL...Waka (Ole Waka Flakka Flame was at a music festival here in Alaska...ALASKA...and he got mid billing on the 3rd day)...
The cost seems to always go up and the value seems to go down. Im beginning to think that Aggy and Matt really just got lucky with a decent idea that got caught up in a Bull market, but do they really know how to run a business? a good one? do they really? EVERY bad decision can be laid right at their feet. Every misstep, every cash grab, every 'exaggeration' of a timeline. Every broken promise and every fence-straddle belongs solely to those two.
Now the good thing is that if they can manage to avoid driving their company into the ground before the next bull market, we should be good despite the many broken promises and lies.
now before all you dev champions go on the defense, know this. I have 50k sps staked, i have a million power, i've purchased 1000+ CL packs from the store, I own 2 plots and i participate in brawls every single week as i've done for the last two years or so. I'm not some snowflake looking for something to whine about, I'm an invested player with a real stake in this process...And i'm voting no.
This is just another example of 'let them eat cake' And the modern version of decapitation is called Bankruptcy
Horrible proposal in every way - Stake,Burn,Stake,Burn is all we are asked to do lately.
The proposal does not address what happens when cards do finally unlock for sale/trade - Do we have to pay again?
Any long term players will have plenty of pre souldbound reward cards to use on land and the current soulbound cards are having no effect on the economy whatsoever.
Any new or recently joined players thinking of participating in land are thrown a new cost barrier by being unable to use the 'reward' cards they have been earning.
What happens if a voucher is used to manifest a 1 BCX common regular foil?
Does 195 DEC worth of the voucher remain in your account to use later?
Or do you lose all of the value left over from that voucher?
Does this mean that you apply 1 voucher per manifest, or can you apply 1 voucher across several manifests in a "bulk manifest" event?
And yet, the price would be paid even if you only earn soulbound reward cards with one account... Expensive too.
why do i have to burn dec for soul bound cards that you can only earn with an investment. while for example beta reward cards get a 5x bonus even though you could farm the cards with huge bot farms that have nothing invested because those with starter cards got 100% rewards oO
What happened in the past is past and we can't change that. Mistakes were made and we just try to learn from them. What I focus on is how we can best grow the ecosystem sustainably over the long term going forward, which is what this proposal is about.
If you don't think allowing soulbound cards to be used on land will be a problem then you're free to vote against the proposal and try to get others to do the same. Similarly, if you feel you have a better way of handling the situation than what I have proposed here you can make your own proposal and ultimately the community of token holders will decide!
If soulbound cards on land are a problem, why allow them on land at all, if we aren't ready to unlock them yet?
Gladiators have untamed level CP too and aren't getting untamed land bonus. This seems like an oversight for unlock costs. I think letting gladiators get unsoulbound needs a separate proposal. There are probably a lot of people who don't want them to be tradable. They should offer a very unique strength you can only get putting in years of brawls
so for a max legendary gold i should pay 100k dec now for land and then later another 50k to unlock 150k dec i should pay for my own card. that i could only earn from my investment so do we actually earn debt?
why does the price exceed future unbound costs? and most importantly, why do you have to pay for unbound again later?
currently, for example, a max level gold Spirit Hoarder costs 151 dollars. so about the same price as it would cost me to unbound my own earned card. so i really haven't earned any cards but bought them at market price?
in addition, the claim that ``people would simply distribute their land to several accounts'' is quite implausible. even if this unlikely case would really occur, people would disadvantage themselves. because e.g. for things like titles the pp of the land is counted together and for that they have to be on one account......
I can't wait to spend a couple hundred $$$ or more to send a set of GF reward cards to my GF account that hasn't earned any yet lol.
don't forget to stack sps and buy lots of energy for these cards 😂
You know it! lol
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Here is revolutionary plan..
Ban the f***n bots, since most of this game's problem is coming from a handful of people running thousands of bots with little to no investment.
I support this, but I think 2X CP is a bit much.1:1 DEC per CP seems plenty. Also if we are getting rid of CP for staked SPS why do we need max level bonuses now?
Definitely makes unlocking sound pretty expensive. I've bought equivalent rarity/foil CL cards for cheaper than some of those suggested costs.
This makes older reward cards a lot more attractive now. Maybe that is the point. Make people buy those instead than unlocking SB cards.
Maybe. I don't know. Seems like an overpriced band-aid to help uphold card values for a reward set that's being massively overprinted.
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Hi Matt, can you clear this up? If you burn the DEC to unbind a soul bound reward card for land are they given a burn rate if you burn the card? For instance, if I burn 4,000 DEC for a Common max card to be useable on Land does it get a burn value of 2,000 DEC?
I have a hard time supporting anything related to soul bound unlocking until my question from todays community meetings is answered.
Here's the scenario. To keep it simple, we’ll use a level 5 RF common card.
Let’s say I want a level 8 card, so I buy the required remaining 160 BCX. Will I be able to combine unlocked cards with my locked cards, and if so, how will that affect my card if I later decide to transfer it, rent it out, or sell it?
Will combining 60 BCX worth of locked cards with 160 BCX of unlocked cards leave me with an unlocked card or will I still need to pay to unlock it later on if I decide to transfer it, rent it out, or sell it?
If I still have to pay the fee, would it be based on my original locked 60 BCX or the new 220 BCX that already has 160 unlocked BCX built in?
@yabapmatt.sps
I'm supporting this but I do think it would have been better to just say, soulbound cards aren't allowed on land. The prices just give people more to be angry about.
I will vote yes :)
This seems like double work for a start. This is where the current DAO voting system lacks. There's a few things that could be up for debate.
Have the full plan ready and put it up for a vote and save time on implementation.
Present the full cost to unbind the card. Not just the cost to unbind for land then find out the extra cost to unbind for sale/transfer later. Phase the rollout if needed but get all the fundamentals completed first.
Gladiator cards too?, brawlers must cringe just at the thought. Adding merits to rewards coming back to haunt us. At the proposed dec/dec-b price for both rewards, rewards seem to get nerfed after the fact too now, that's my take on it but not everyone will agree. Price just seems double the amount anticipated.
Gladiator cards already have burn value, will the soulbound reward cards get this too? Either for land or full unlock?
Vouchers not used at all but @yabapmatt.sps did mention in Mav chat earlier that the proposal might be edited to include them.
What I find surprising is the amount of bcx in PACKS vs what we give up in rewards.
You used the example of 47M in Chaos Legion.
Current Reward Cards are 32M --> going to 64M in 5 months.
Packs are revenue-earning, go to the bottom line of your business.
Rewards cards are not.
I think you to address several things:
As a bronze-level player, I have been able to "reap" more benefits from this SB-reward card release because of the SUMMONERS. Summoners should never be part of the reward card set. Most of my summoners are at Bronze LEVEL. I have silver league SB summoners already.
I will vote with my 1800 SPS, but I hope people can see that wisdom is not often related to how many SPS one has.
I don't think the BCX will be 64m in 5 months.
Why? Staking SPS will be required to earn rewards as rapidly as we do now. This means that unless there is a material increase in the amount of SPS staked, fewer reward cards will be issued due to there being fewer RP / SP distributed by those who earn in a league or level where they do not reach the staking requirements.
I like the idea another comment had : if the card is soulbound, it requires more DEC to be staked.
My main issue is this is quite complicated.
People with soulbound still have to pay for the actual land and the actual DEC they stake on it. If they have 100 accounts with 43/86 soulbound cards on they have to buy 200/400 land plots to actually use them, which is already a huge investment, ignoring the DEC. They also probably wont have max level soulbound so they pay again from the inefficient cards (although in time they will of course max them)
Why not just make staking requirement higher just for soulbound if it really would be such an issue? I think this is easier to understand and doesn't introduce a new system.
I prefer simplicity and beauty overall. So I would prefer making the cost of manifestation of cards just their CP + voucher(s). If it is considered too low to be sustainable long term (because we are truly earning a lot of soulbound rewards) then I would prefer to reconsider print rates. What's the point of farming plenty of GFL in champions if then I have to pay an arbitrary amount of DEC to unbound?
I understand the manifest costs proposed are halfway between CP and current market value of land workers, so everyone should be happy (but no one extremely happy) but what happens if market prices change?
I think with last proposals we are changing from "market gonna market" to "DAO gonna market". I have mixed feelings about this.
Still uncertain about what to vote on this proposal.
Since a lot of the angst is due to the uncertainty of the final cost. Why not have people stake the stated amount of DEC rather tham burn it? This still effectively removes the DEC from circulation and disincentivizes the use of SB reward cards (as upfront capital is required). Then when the full cost to make them transferrable is determined, players can choose to pay to fully unlock them ..
vouchers plz, and when soulbound cards are unlockable there should be a window of time to unlock for each set and then it is completely in print.
Lets see what happens :)
Thank you for further de-valueing previous collections.
I would appreciate disallowing SB cards on Land until they can really be unbound. Things are getting too complicated with all those additions and exceptions. Even if it is a minor thing to implement, it is an additional thing - and those add up.
ok next don't release any more card sets at all until an obvious huge growth in players, and until you have prevented anonymous multi accounters from raiding the game's economy, with all your band aids over the problem just costing the average player value.