We’ve been excited about Steemit and the profound implications of this platform since it came to our attention, and we’ve been engaged and responsible users ever since.
Steemit truly is revolutionary, but we’ve got an issue that deserves to be addressed. And it seems we’re not alone in our criticisms: as @stellabelle posted yesterday, “If Steemit doesn’t pivot soon, it will most likely see a further degradation in quality, user engagement and adoption, all of which will result in an unstoppable downward trend.” (click here for her article)
We don’t want to see that happen to Steemit, so we’re airing our grievances in hopes of encouraging that pivot. We don't believe we're always right or that others are always wrong, and we realize disagreements will happen.
We’re not complaining here, but rather using an opportunity for growth and understanding through a situation we find dishonorable. We live by standards of honor, so acknowledging this is necessary for our own ideals and for our continued participation in a successful community.
On Saturday, we met the first real resistance on Steemit to the standards and truths we uphold. This is both disappointing (as we had thus far been embraced by the Steemians because we provide valuable content) and exciting because it is a chance for us to hold community standards and accountability on this revolutionary platform--and we are well established in what it takes to run a successful community. (For those that do not know, the Garden of Eden is a sustainable community in Texas. You can read more about us in this Steemit article here, or visit our website.)
Without further ado, here’s the situation:
We posted an article about COLLOIDAL GOLD on Saturday, which is the most holistic remedy we have found not only for depression, but a host of other ailments as well. We have extensive testimonies and evidence for the effectiveness of colloidal gold with no side effects, and we are committed to sharing healthier options with people who seek genuine healing. We have found better ways than the single standard choice of Big Pharma’s monopoly, and we present them so that they may help others.
This was not well received. That’s totally cool, as we’re used to opposition--the DFW metroplex is not the most receptive and supportive area for our extremely alternative lifestyle. In fact, the government sent a $350,000 Black Ops SWAT raid to attack our property and our people when our founder began speaking out against the establishment. So realistically, a little disagreement on Steemit is really not that big of a deal, especially for us.
But at the same time, it is a big deal for anyone who cares about standards, honor, and accountability--oh, the glorious paradox!
We’re BIG on standards, values, and accountability, so we’ll go further into this big deal that’s not a big deal.
One user, @logic, threatened to report us for abuse because he does not believe studies that are not government-endorsed (please don't accidentally wander over to the anarchy category, because your head might explode). Another user @sabot downvoted us with no explanation. We reached out for clarification and received no reply.
Later, it was downvoted by @reneenouvea who at least left a comment indicating her downvote was based on the fact that she was emotionally moved by the extreme challenge to her paradigm. Another user @roy.batty downvoted us, and again we reached out for clarification and received no reply.
We suggest that if you don’t like it, you have the option to
#1 stop reading our posts
#2 make some sort of respectable inquiry
#3 make some kind of legitimate suggestion
rather than downvote or ridicule, which is essentially the worst offense you can perpetrate against another Steemit user.
Downvotes cause injury to the other party, in terms of reduced reputation and limited scope of reach. It is a most intentionally transgression committed against the other party. It is essentially saying, "I want you silenced!" and dedicating your power to do so. Although @logic disagreed strongly based on their government bias, at least he had the dignity not to downvote and injure us. @reneenouvea at least left a comment, although she judged so harshly that she found us deserving of injury. The downvotes without explanation are a transgression to our honor, and we were harmed by them as it limits the reach of our post and affects our reputation. Others are harmed by the censorship as well, because this OPTION for health and wellness is not getting to the people it can benefit.
So we brought the issue to the Steemitabuse-classic chatroom channel, where we were advised by users taking their valuable time to address these matters. (Thank you to @patrice, @tuck-fheman, @bacchist, @neoxian, @pfunk and @royaltiffany for your consideration regarding this issue/non-issue.) We did the responsible thing by bringing this to the attention of an impartial third party for guidance. Instead of just flagging the countering users back or activating our extensive network for retaliation, we turned to the Steemit community for advice. To overlook the guidance of unbiased moderators is again really poor community etiquette. A logical, fair, objective analysis is vital to finding resolution.
We were told that essentially there is little to nothing that can be done. Contact the other user, see if it can be resolved and have the downvote removed, or start a flag war. Plus, flags by users with lower reputations don’t really matter, they say.
So again, it's not really a big deal.
But once more, it is a big deal because it is the intention, the purpose, and the intention behind it! This is an issue of honorable and accountable standards.
We contacted the users @sabot and @roy.batty for clarification, and we received no response. We have no interest in starting a flag war, because where would that leave us?
We find ourselves with no solution, save to make a post.
We’re grateful for the opportunity to start a bigger discussion with the extended community regarding VALUES, and we’re still excited that Steemit provides this platform. We want no part of censorship, or users that intend harm to the community without at least addressing the reasoning behind such a move.
Obviously not everyone agrees on everything, and that’s fine--we can agree to disagree. If we don’t agree with someone, then we don’t even have to waste our time by reading their articles! Or we could read them and put in our opinion/constructive criticism if we think it is of value, rather than getting upset and moving in judgment. Just move on and upvote the post that you like, and don’t read the post that you do not like.
But the fact that you’re following and reading posts that you don’t like?! It means that you’re searching them out. You’re going out of your way to find content that upsets you so that you may judge and wield what power you may have over another user via the downvote and censor their content.
Basically flagging is the worst thing you can do in Steemit, and it is an intentional inflection of injures to the other party. That means that @sabot & @roy.batty did the worst thing that they could possibly do to us without a single communication/question asked/ suggestion made. This is unacceptable in a successful community.
We realize that plenty of users have more flags/downvotes than us, so it's not a big deal...We’ve seen users with established reputations write controversial and challenging articles, and even though we’ve seen some flagging we’ve seen lots of healthy discussion and debate. So on the other hand, it is a big deal because the conversation was withheld.
We love Steemit because it allows people to logically, reasonably, and responsibly address disagreements rather than attack and defend. We’re making this post not to attack the community, but to make it clear what our standards are and to get some feedback.
Say for example @ned and @dantheman started flagging every single post about cures for cancer or about the global military-industrial complex--the community has to call that out! To wield one's unlimited power like a dictatorship cannot be tolerated. Censorship cannot be tolerated, especially when the platform is represented as one of freedom. This applies to the minnows and dolphins as well.
So hopefully the Steemit community would say we don’t want to be in a group or world where someone has the power to nullify someone else’s post just because you disagree with someone, especially without any kind of inquiry, or suggestion. That's what we want to clarify to see where we stand.
We believe it’s more beneficial to have an honest and respectable community rather than one made up of users who pander to what may be the popular decision. Is this a community that’s based on logical, clear, reasonable communication, or is it one that’s based on emotional, biased, judgmental reactions? Ultimately, that’s up to the community as a whole, which needs some cohesive values.
We want to know if you disagree with us: if you want to tell us we’re crazy freaks we’ll be on our way….
...We’re not gonna pretend or compromise what’s truly important to us, and we’re not gonna participate in a community that’s too contrary to what our priorities are either.
We’ll do our best to communicate our successes in the best way we know how, but if the community thinks we’re wrong or not valuable...realistically, we’re not gonna change, because what we have found is so abundant, healthy, and free that we are inspired to share it. We've seen and experienced how others are living, and that's why we choose the alternative. (Seriously, please--if you can show us someone healthier than Quinn, then please let us know! We want to learn from them. Please show us, because we want to live the best life possible!)
If you don’t believe us, that’s ok, but for anyone to attack and ridicule us for our own personal success, and for sharing that success honestly and responsibly is completely and totally dishonorable.
If others disagree, we’ll continue to live our way and they can continue to live theirs.
If others agree, we would like to see action to that. We would like to see some similar groups to @robinhoodwhale & @steemcleaners--a group of beings or accounts dedicated to reasonable discussion and honorable process not only to share and hold this standard, but also to hold accountability to that.
Ultimately, for any community to succeed and thrive, there has to be accountability. It doesn’t mean there has to be a totalitarian government, but there has to be some cohesive consensus and order.
Again, we appreciate the time and information we received from @patrice, @tuck-fheman, @bacchist, @neoxian, @pfunk and @royaltiffany. However, if @steemcleaners or the Steemit abuse chatroom is not the place to work it out, then there needs to be
#1 a way to work things out in an honorable way and
#2 public example made of people who are attacking and being illogical.
It doesn’t mean they have to be banned, but anyone who just flags stuff without suggestion or comment or communication needs to be addressed.
The values are a big deal, even though the situation is not a big deal.
Thank you for your time and consideration. A better way is possible!
www.intothegardenofeden.com
I came over here from a comment on a thread i posted about censorship .
There are a few things i feel like i should clear up for you.
My down vote would cost you 4 cents. In total, the four users that downvoted you had about 1/6th of my SP. THat is to say, these 4 flags cost you approximately 1 cent. Maybe less.
Holistic medicine is not my thing, so you normally wouldn't get my upvotes. However, i hit your 5 previous posts due to this issue. My vote isnt huge, but the 5 of them are probably worth about 20 cents, which is a net gain of 19 cents.
A flag really isnt that big a deal, its really a downvote... they made the button into a flag to discourage people from using it without thought for stuff that just didnt interest them,
a flag doesnt really take money from you.... your money comes from the your total share of the votes.
Your flag does hurt their reputation rating though. Flagging is for abuse of the system. It's not for disagreeing with a post.
I didn't flag them... (and in fact, all of their flaggers had lower rep than they did) but yeah i see your point. Im kind of ambivalent on the whole flagging issue (not that my flag means much), but i see where youre coming from.
I guess my problem is that when you say "flag for abuse" you end up giving a huge advantage to the people willing to cry "abuse" when someone does or says something they don't like.
...If someone is crying abuse (like crying wolf) in order to censor or hurt potential earnings or reputation, that is the same attitude as people flagging just because they don't like what they're seeing and they want to censor or hurt potential earnings or reputation. (O_O)
In essence - are you saying it's acceptable to do it to someone else as long as that someone else is not you??
um... no im not sure where you got that. I don't think its acceptable at all. I just think it happens.
LOL - we definitely agree upon that last part... (Sh)it does happen. ;-D
...But you are saying that since (sh)it happens, that we should just live in (sh)it and throw (sh)it at each other because there is no other alternative? What if I don't want to spend my time in (sh)it all day?
Agreed, @tuck-fheman. We're trying to have a civilized community here!
@gardenofeden
I reported you to steemcleaners, because I thought that advertising products from own shop is not allowed on Steemit. I was wrong. Obviously, it seems that anyone can advertise here whatever products they like including child porn or heroin.
If you decide to post something publicly, then you have to prepare yourself for criticism. Not everyone is going to lickspittle your posts. I have the right to criticize.
I reported you to steemcleaners, because I thought that advertising products from own shop is not allowed on Steemit. I was wrong.
It is not my problem that you lack scientific literacy and value science only as long as it support your beliefs. Regardless if the government can be trusted or not, it won't be able to corrupt every single scientific study from all over the world. I have given you 18 links to different scientific studies from many different countries, which included scientists from all over the world, which also included conclusions by 3 different governments.
You gave my back some 5 dubious, cherry picked studies. 4 were 20-30 years old and one from 1879 (!!!). One study referred to trace minerals, which can include any mineral.
You advertise and sell very dangerous, "snake oil" feeding on naivety of vulnerable people who need proper medical care.
There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support any of the extraordinary claims attributed to colloidal gold or silver. There is plenty of evidence to point out it's potential dangerous side effects. This is an opinion of experts from scientific community from all over the world, from last 20 years.
Also, silver or gold are not essential mineral in humans, so there is no dietary requirement for silver or gold, therefore there are no such things as a silver or gold "deficiencies". Claims made about the effectiveness of colloidal silver or gold products for different diseases have no scientific support.
I consider battling pseudoscience as an important duty. We are all part of one environment that we all share, so spreading socially detrimental pseudoscience affects each one of us.
It is important that we try to keep each other informed and educated, as much as possible, and in sustainable way. By keeping ourselves scientifically literate we directly improve the quality of life of all others in our society (and humanity as a whole).
There is a limit of tolerance when it comes to bullshit. Tolerance is not about accepting someone's right to spread pseudoscience which affects public health or right to perpetuate ideas which hinder sustainable progress of humanity. And the fact that you try to contribute to society by doing some charity or wannabe "so alternative" project will not justify the damage you can do to humanity by spreading such dangerous pseudoscience.
Of course, proponents of these products like yourself have an easy answer - there is a conspiracy of big pharma and governments trying to hide the truth from us sheeple about these wondrous cures.
Your assumptions about big pharma making profits are paradoxical.
If the magical claims about colloidal silver or gold were true, then actually so called big pharmas would quickly jump on them trying to patent or copy them in order to make profit.
Also, each company and government complicit in the conspiracy would have to weigh the likelihood and consequences of being double-crossed by their competitors and of every single scientist formerly on their payroll against the predicted benefits. Conspiracy this large would require cooperation from many entities that would actually lose money. In order for the conspiracy to work, each of those entities would need to be incentivized to stay quiet. In other words, they’d have to be paid more than they would lose. That’s every country with socialized healthcare and every insurance company which pays for treatments. Don’t forget that each doctor, researcher and scientist involved in any aspect would need to be paid an amount sufficient to overcome any temptation to squeal. Clinical trials are an integral part of drug discovery. That’s even more information to suppress and more people who need paid off. All of this comes after the billions spent on research and development to find the cure in the first place. Also needed would be a small army of henchmen capable of dispatching with those who will not cooperate, and with a budget sufficient to cover this all up. This army would also be required to monitor independent and rival researchers, and would need to get to them before they stumbled onto the cure themselves, so as to either pay them off or kill them. At that point, the price tag for having the privilege of holding the hidden cure would likely be in the trillions. To any corporation in this position, having a cure to hide would be a burden: not a boon.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but the number of scientist that falsify data to keep or receive grants is alarming.
EXACTLY!
It is silly to say that "even if government is corrupt and untrustworthy" that we should believe any it.
Any real research outside of government funded and sponsored/influenced comes to the same conclusion. Vaccinations are poisonous and dangerous, that there are FAR better solutions to cancer than chemo and on and on...Yet it is still happening and almost EVERY single doctor in the USA promotes this same lie at the cost of everyone else.
Some frauds and falsification happen but as with any scientific study they have to be later repeated and peer reviewed by independent group of scientists. Sooner or later any fraudulent scientific study is going to be exposed.
Some examples of such studies:
http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/13/great-science-frauds/ (includes Dr. Andrew Wakefield)
Anti-vaxxer "hero" fraud
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452.full
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/
Scientific method and evidence do not care about someone's bias and belief. The truth will come out anyway. Someone may believe that the Earth is flat disc but it won't make it so.
That's what happened with bad science and pseudoscience such as colloidal gold or anti-vaxxer claims. They just within time couldn't cope with the burden of proof provided by extensive international scrutiny. There were statistical reviews and meta-analysis which were performed by independent researches from all over the world, which ultimately exposed these studies/claims to be false.
That anti-vaxxer conspiracy is a great example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. It is cognitive bias in which unskilled, uneducated, individuals suffer from an illusory superiority of their knowledge and skills, that makes them to overestimate their abilities in critical thinking and knowledge of a field, as much higher than they actually are.
It is great that you admitted you were wrong! This shows a level of honor and responsibility. It is awesome that even though you thought you were right that you INQUIRED first with the community! That is EXACTLY part of proper etiquette.
This post clearly says disagreement is ok and even healthy, yet proper etiquette goes a long way in having a healthy community. So this post doesn't have as much to do with you as others.
There WERE people that flagged the post and did NOT make a comment or a suggestion OR an inquiry. This obviously does not apply to you @logic
Yet if you were willing to do the "worst thing to somebody you can to on Steemit" and be WRONG about it....Maybe you could be wrong about other things as well.
For you to post research done by major companies, governments, hospitals etc who have PROVEN to be corrupt and false yet discount the information in this post is very irrational.
Especially when a truly honorable and reputable community with REAL experience, testimonials and proven successes is not fair.
It could be fair to say "I am glad you have success with that, however I have a MORE successful way here it is" agree to disagree and put in your two cents.
Yet the GoE has proven to be far more healthy, sustainable, honorable AND successful than western medic doctors.
IF what the GoE was doing is selling fake products to take advantage of people then YES it would be most certainly be worth a flag. Yet if you do research on The GoE as a whole you will see the operation is transparent and very honorable.
You obviously already had a belief BEFORE you read the post and because it was counter to YOUR belief you didn't like it. You used the reasons you did to justify it.
Again its ok to disagree yet lets do it honorably. All in all you have done it honorably because you put in your disagreement but didn't flag as abusive. This post doesn't really apply to you as much.
Thanks for taking your time to share your thoughts! We'll address each item:
We realize that 1 cent isn't a big deal...but at the same time, it is also a big deal for a few reasons. First, we live on less than a dollar a day each and dedicate all proceeds towards helping other, so even 1 cent is relatively more valuable to us than to an average American consumer. Second, it really isn't about money at all here--it is about the principle and intention behind the action. Downvotes/flagging are a user's way of saying our information does not deserve to be seen and heard, and it was done without any explanation/inquiry/comment/suggestion. To us, this is blatant dishonor and we must let our standards be known.
We have proven successes and are dedicated to sharing them. Even for those who don't partake of holistic medicine, it is obviously beneficial for people to know that options exist so they can make informed decisions for themselves. In the face of Big Pharma's monopoly, alternatives are crucial. Everyone is welcome to make their own choices, but it is a blatant lie to suppress remedies that have benefited many. We can't stand for that; we can't approve of censorship in even the smallest degree.
So, yes, it's not a big deal...but what we're really addressing are values, which are indeed meaningful.
Thank you for your support! Again, money isn't important, but the principle and values that are moving you speak volumes to us.
We believe the flags were cast not because the content isn't valuable, but because some users had emotional reactions and acted on impulse. This is attempted censorship simply because they didn't like what we had to say, which is no justification at all. However, we don't really know because there was no discussion or opportunity for recourse, which is unacceptable in a successful community.
We're really grateful for the opportunity to exchange ideas and address values. It is truly priceless, and the discussion we've opened is an important and valuable thing that has come from this minuscule event.
Not really clear on this, as it seems to contradict #1? Downvotes could potentially harm our reputation, which is a real injury. Although, we're told that downvotes by users with lower reps don't really affect your own rep, so once more it's not a big deal.
It is a big deal though, because we cannot tolerate even attempted censorship--those are just our standards, and we address this to make our standards clear. We strongly believe in accountability.
From the get-go, this has been one of my primary concerns with Steemit... And if this isn't addressed and a reasonable solution presented soon, I foresee Steemit falling down a path that is horrendously status quo of all systems that allow itself to be run by the military-industrial complex; a place that takes on a mob-mentality of trite triviality where truly intelligent and thoughtfully honest content is buried alive by emotional emasculation and sycophantic censorship.
Remember!! This brand of aggressive suppression and hateful prejudice always starts out small and targeting the minority... But if no one speaks out, and the community as a whole ignores what is happening, the consequences are obvious and historical... To quote Martin Niemöller:
Thanks for your thoughtful support! We speak out because to not do so is a violation of our standards. Censorship is dishonorable, whether it is a minnow or a whale that wields that power. We understood that Steemit was free of censorship, which is one reason we found it so exciting and revolutionary. Unfortunately, we're witnessing that this is not the case. We call for all users to consider their VALUES so this community can grow and learn and succeed from these challenges! We're here to present our new paradigm because everyone can benefit from our experience and expanded awareness! We want to see everyone happy and healthy and free, because we know it is possible! We want to be part of an honorable and accountable community, so we speak out.
Well said. Great vocabulary!
In reading @everlove's reply, I was inspired to write my own article offering potential solutions about what can be done to keep flagging in the system but allow some sense of accountability for those who are using it - OR, at the very least, I'm calling for discussion and attempting to get the big founding whales to see what many struggling minnows and dolphins see:
There's a hole in the bottom of the sea...
And if we, as a community, do not come together soon... Well let's just say I have better things to do than to get sucked up in a hole that is sinking my valuable time and precious energy.
Living in sustainable community bring up all kinds of scenarios to address. After years and hundred of people, we are clear that accountability is of the utmost importance. Without accountability there is no responsibility. Ideally people themselves are accountable, responsible and honorable in their actions, but when that is not the case, there needs to be in place a structure to handle situations where people are not capable of it on their own.
The world we live in is designed and perpetuated to divide us, to encourage lashing out without true communication, to leave us with dysfunctional ideas about conflict resolution and incredibly low standards. Bringing this kind of behavior into Steemit is a sad thing, as there is great potential for such a platform with many intelligent contributors.
When there is no accountability, things can go sour very quickly. We know this from experience. The SWAT raid on the Garden of Eden is such an example. The City of Arlington, it's mayor, city manager, chief of police and others, hide behind the structure that allows their dishonorable actions, without putting their own personal integrity on the line. Never once did they communicate with us as we requested from the highest officials. Never once did the neighbor speak about her concerns, even though directly questioned prior to the raid. You see, people will hide their feelings without discussion, without clarity, without honorable attempts to resolve differences, especially when there is no one of higher integrity to hold them accountable. This is the way we were raised. This is common and it isn't sustainable.
If the users are unwilling to respectfully address their disagreements, to only tune into those posts which do benefit them or provide relevant and supported feedback to back their actions, and if Steemit won't address these situations to hold those users harassing and interacting dishonorably accountable, then the platform will surely fall. Dishonor is not sustainable and undermining those who bring valuable content will disrupt the beauty of the open forum.
Sustainability, responsibility, accountable, integrity, honor are the values upheld with the highest esteem at the Garden of Eden--the true reason for its success. Any system, City or group that doesn't hold these values of primary importance will not thrive. We ask that the infrastructure of Steemit be re-evaluated to step up their standards, as a reflection of the incredible potential and revolutionary platform of exchange it can be.
These missed opportunities for communication are absolutely "dysfunctional ideas about conflict resolution and incredibly low standards"! We are excited to participate in this revolution, because as you say @everlove, we are experienced in running a community. The VALUES we call for have proven success in our experience. Dishonor is indeed unsustainable. We still believe in Steemit, and we still believe in the ability of each individual to grow, learn, and evolve. We suggest everyone look at their values to shape the community and world they want.
Excellent post! ...And it gave me an idea too - a way to keep flagging in the system yet hold people accountable at the same time for using it.
We need to come together as a community of like-minded people! Any kind of discussion we embark on I see as positive: Ultimately, we'll either be listened to and the balanced changes will be made, OR we can all find other ways to use our time - one that is in closer alignment with what we're collectively looking for.
Either way, we win. :-D
Take that whole post on colodial gold and copy paste it into a new post and start over again. Flag those people who downvoted with no explanation. See if they'll come back and respond. Keep posting about colodial gold. Keep talking about it.
I personally find the colodial gold an amazing product. I use it every day. It helps me with all kinds of personal issues.
Downvoting on steemit should only have the power to demonstrate a disagreement and nothing else. A downvote need not have the power to damage a posting unless they can provide real proof that the post is a farce. Disagreement power can seriously lend itself to abuse and create a Facebook type of energetic where people bash and argue like two year olds. My understanding is steemit is above that but now, in light of this situation I am seeing where an upgrade in policy is in dire need if you don't want steemit to just be another Facebook, perpetuating petty issues that lead to unconscionable acts. This forum has so much potential. C'mon steemit, raise the bar!
Thanks for your support! We will absolutely continue to share our successful experience of real options for health and wellness, in addition to sharing the truth about money and the law and parenting and sustainability. We have found massively upgraded paradigms that are so abundant and healthy, that we are inspired to tell others about them--everyone's experience can be improved when we share our extensive knowledge! And if someone likes the sound of it, great! They can integrate it into his/her life, but if they don't like it, they can simply choose to ignore it.
Again, we're not interested in a flag war, or really with engaging with users who are so deeply caught in cognitive dissonance that they are blind. We're going to share the TRUTH, and it's not our business to convince others.
Conversation has the power to demonstrate disagreement. The downvote causes injury. A user with a lower rep is said to not affect one much by downvoting, but we are addressing the intention behind the downvote. One user is saying to another, "Your opinion should not be heard." This is a violation; censorship is violent.
We call for a revolution in VALUES. The user has to realize the intention behind their action of flagging, and recognize the dishonor in not even addressing the issue before attempting censorship. This isn't Fascistbook where likes are tossed about willy-nilly without regard to their worth or implications, but perhaps the downvote is being approached with a FB mentality without considering what it truly represents. We address this to bring awareness to VALUES.
Hear hear @loveon!
Facebook can be Facebook... in my book. ;-D
And I want Steemit to BE Steemit too!
... but if it turns into Facebook w/ Crypto-Currency?
...Yeah... buh-bye now. (-_-)
If Flagging continues to have this kind of power, it shouldn't be used as a downvote against things you don't like. It should be reserved for downvoting content that violates decent web behaviour. Like spamming or plagiarizing.
A couple weeks ago, one of my only successful posts ever was flagged by a whale (and his sock account... I guess he really wanted to make me lose money.) He gave the reason that there had already been similar topics on the site. Well this is the internet... of course there will be some repetition. And even if my content wasn't original enough I had done a bunch of original artwork for the post. Comments from others indicated that they saw value in my blog entry and didn't just see it as redundant noise.
But this whale had to take it upon himself to cut my earnings down by about $600 and effectively kill my only successful post since my introduction.
We don't believe that emotional, illogical reaction is cause for inflicting harm via downvote/flagging option. Conversation is an option for resolution of differences, plus it allows the greater community to get involved which benefits all.
Thanks for sharing your experience @sethlinson. Disagreements are inevitable, but we appreciate the opportunity that Steemit provides to discuss them reasonably and openly. We don't disapprove of the downvote/flag option per se, but to exercise that power without even hinting at reason for censorship is absolutely dishonorable.
Wowza... This is the one thing about Steemit I've never understood - this ability to flag (i.e. censor) or downvote (i.e. censor in a different fashion) seems to attract pettiness, trolls, and vast misunderstandings...
I wrote a short bare-bones article about potential solutions to keep flagging in the system, while creating a means of accountability to go along with it. Even if only the first part is implemented, it adds a step to the process of flagging and also identifies the user directly and can assist in the community holding this person accountable.
I even used your circumstance as an example in my article @sethlinson :-)
I'll check out your article :)
That is absurd!
Yes this is a major problem and must be fixed otherwise this platform will fail.
I agree. Be better. Do better. Make this the community that you want to have that's based on honorable behavior and mentality.
Exactly! We have the power to live by VALUES and to shape this platform accordingly!
Yes, there is a culture of false flagging content you disagree with here on "steemit", and I think that is occurring because people want to vote negatively on the post but the only option is to flag it, which they equate to down voting. It isn't down voting it is censorship as you correctly stated. That is why I proposed adding a don vote button, but one where the down-vote does not censor content. I am not saying remove the flag option, but the flag option should be to flag spam, or plagiarized content; not to down vote an article. https://steemit.com/steemit/@titusfrost/false-flagging-need-a-down-vote-button-stop-censorship
That could be one solution. We suggest disagreement be expressed through conversation, ideally with suggestions for improvements provided. Or the user who doesn't like the content doesn't have to read it at all!
Really, we want users to consider their own VALUES. Is emotional reaction and challenge to one's belief system really justification for injuring another party? We don't think so.
Thanks for your input, @titusfrost!
Totally agree!
This is a very important issue, thank for addressing it. Interestingly, @sigmajin wrote a piece today about censorship as well--and the level of censorship he is seeing is sinister. This big deal that's not a big deal is worth talking about! Users who want to censor others and stop the flow of ideas cannot be tolerated in a fair, reasonable, and just community. Given the "sensitive" nature of challenging Big Pharma and other government entitites, it is even more important to present alternatives in a logic, level-headed arena. Censorship is control, and Steemit presents itself as a platform that is unable to be controlled. That anyone would use their power to silence another must be addressed. Upholding freedom and responsibility is of utmost importance.
This small issue of users wielding the downvote and threats to report to "authorities" are indeed more meaningful issues than they appear on the surface. The principle of the thing is the motivation behind the flag, and that is a big deal. It is an attempt to censor another user. We hope the Steemit community will learn and evolve. We are grateful for opening this issue up for discussion!
"That anyone would use their power to silence another must be addressed." Bingo!!!!!
People don't like simple solutions that put out evolution, upgrades and expose the medical industry for slave makers that they are.
That's true, yet not liking something is not valid reason for censorship. We call for VALUES, and want to be part of a community where honor and accountability are upheld. We ask for a consideration of community etiquette and the intention behind a downvote. Further, we'd like to live in a society where users are evolved beyond quick emotional reaction and judgment. A thoughtful response is preferred over irrational reaction any day.
Much gratitude to @gardenofeden for standing on the TRUE side of Freedom and calling on the nay sayers.
Y'all keep it going <3
Thank you!
good to know
@gardenofeden ... your post sounds true... the 'problem' consists of damage causing trolls that are PAID to be here by Partisan Backers...you can tell them for what they are by just going to their blogs...very little posting of positive ideas...numerous negative comments(some absolutely vulgar & racist)...low rank & numerous flags for no 'good' reason at all...if @ned or @dantheman needs a security monitor that's fair then I am at your service @terryrall ...I have been dealing with trolls since 2001...And I know what to do about them!...I swear these trolls are pulling this platform down...they need to be dealt with efficientally & effectively...you need to give members someone to go to handle problems! The ONLY recourse we now have now is getting into flag wars with these trolls! Think about it! Right now I have a 'list' from the Trolls Rogue's Gallery on this platform...they NEED to be told 'how the cow eats the cabbage'! I can Do that!
Your eagerness is admirable, @terryrall! We would like to participate in a community with high standards, rather than a cesspool of low vibes. @dana-edwards suggested Steemit add a "selective" user interface to deal with abusive accounts...seems many have encountered this issue. Grateful we're focusing on solutions!
@gardenofeden ...abusive trolls abound on this chain...and they LOVE to swarm in politics where partisanship is a given...politics is a virtual 'war zone' that other departments don't seem to go through...& somebody MUST be paying them because NONE of them are trying to acquire any value here at ALL! They literally LOVE 'flagging'...their ranks are 'low' & they literally jump you as soon as they get the chance...these individuals stalk & bully...and we 'minnows' get the worst of it!...They want to sour people on coming to this platform...so in the 'end' Steemit suffers!
I am in complete agreement here @terryrall.
That's why I'm gunning for the devs (as in developers - or founders - or whales - or whatever) to see with eyes unclouded by hate and act in defense of this wonderful platform.
...And yeah, downvoting others for whatever reason one tells oneself can be fun... but as Trinity from The Matrix says:
Unless the founders themselves have been bought out (or threatened) by Partisan Backers, I have faith that they will act in the best interests of Steemit - and by extension, themselves.
And!
If they're seeing what I'm seeing - if they are seeing what many potential Steemers and Steemians are seeing - they will see that the best way to create value is to create value ... and that adding the option to devalue can only end up going down one road... a road we don't want to go down anymore.
I never post about politics here, even though I have a Master's degree in Political Science and used to teach it to college students (and also worked for a U.S. senator). Believe me, I have a lot of opinions on politics, and a solid education on how the U.S. government works. But, I've seen the flagging on those kinds of posts here, so won't touch them, even though I have a lot to offer in the discussion in that area.
The same thing goes for natural health. I'm a big believer in it, and have tried almost every method and/or product out there, some of which I still use and believe in. I've got first-hand experience to share! But, once again, I see a lot of flagging in that area, so I mostly stay out of it, except for some commenting. It's something I'd love to talk about, though.
If I see an article here that doesn't interest me or I don't like for some reason, guess what? I ignore it. I don't flag it, because I know OTHER people may find it useful or interesting. It's not my place to say an article has no value, just because it has no value to me personally. Other people should get the opportunity to decide for themselves. The flagging option should ONLY be used for plagiarism and spam. Anything else is an abuse of the option, in my opinion.
I'm sorry for what happened to you here, @gardenofeden. I enjoy your posts and find value in them. You didn't deserve those flags, as you were simply talking about your beliefs on what is supposed to be a censorship-free platform.
EXACTLY!
That is the honorable way to do it. KEEP ON!
I very much agree that something needs to be done - and, intuitively, I feel like there is a very good chance that some of them might indeed be paid and bought for by what you dubbed as Partisan Backers... But even if that is the case! - even if this is our only option at the moment (being flag wars)! - isn't that a horrible way to waste our time and energy??
Something DOES need to be done though... And it needs to come from the platform itself - and we, the users, can offer solutions and be part of the discussion. If we talk about it and make our voices known, changes will happen... and if they don't (I hear the questioner ask)?... Well, nowadays I consider my time amongst the most valuable resources available to me... And I guarantee I will not be spending it watching beautiful minnows suffocate while the dolphins and whales gorge themselves on the the banality of the mundane.
"please don't accidentally wander over to the anarchy category, because your head might explode"
😂😂😂 dying
Happy we could make you laugh @laurengrace!
Great information.
Thank you, we're here to embody values!
Ridicule is definitely out of line but how is a downvote "the worst offense you can perpetrate against another Steemit user"?
This is a gross exaggeration. Flags are part of the system, just like upvotes. Anyone can rightfully flag you for any reason. That's just how it works.
Nobody owes you anything. Steemit is subjectively meritocratic. You could write the most awesome post in the world but if you didn't get upvoted then the market simply chose not to value your particular contribution at this time.
Try again.
While a user is obviously able to flag at will, it is intended to be used only to mark abuse. We call attention to the fact that users are flagging merely to indicate disagreement.
Disagreements happen, and in a civilized community discussion is more appropriate when it does. The community as a whole is benefited by thoughtful discourse.
Flagging , however, injures the other party in that it damages reputation, limits the reach of a post, and potentially affects earnings. It is one user forcing their will upon another in an attempt to silence and censor them. It is the worst thing one Steemit user can do to another in the reality of this Steem-iverse, and we draw attention to that reality so we may act responsibly with that power. We specifically address the need for discussion in these cases.
On the one hand, it's not a big deal--we know disagreements will happen, and it's seemingly nothing more than the push of one button over another. On the other hand, it is a big deal when we address the values and principles behind the action. We don't want Steemit to be a place where users inflict harm upon one another through their unconscious actions; taking responsibility for the proper use of a downvote will help us build something greater than Facebook when we realize that all actions reflect values. Accountability is vital to the success of a community!
Abuse, a currently fuzzy concept open to wide interpretation. My point remains, anyone can flag anything. That's how the system works.
That's your opinion. But that's not a design principle for the system.
There is no injury. This is hyperbole again. And it only reduces your reputation when done by a user with a higher rep than you, which is, by the current design of the system, that user's right to do. You have no right to any particular reputation number.
Of course it does, because the system was designed for it to have that power.
There is no force involved.
This is a load of horseshit. You got flagged. Get over it and try again. Not everything is a political movement.
It's real simple...you're either posting here...or you're running around looking for people to 'flag'...if I can't get value here then I'm going to make sure nobody else gets any value either...
Except you can't flag away all the rewards in the system.
Flagging is a form of curation that is inherently valued by the system. shrug
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