I recently had an opportunity to review Cardano’s Ouroboros consensus algorithm as presented in a youtube presentation. The original paper can be found here. The marketing behind Cardano and Ouroboros is that it is the first “peer reviewed”, “provably secure” proof of stake consensus algorithm. Upon reading their paper it becomes clear to those familiar with BitShares 1.0, Graphene, Steem, and EOS that Ouroboros is a copy of Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS) with a few counter-productive modifications. In fact their paper refers to the term “πDPoS” 17 times without mentioning or recognizing any of my prior work.
Before getting into the more technical review of Ouroboros, let’s look at the performance of the final product.
Block Interval
Block interval determines the latency until a transaction is included in the first block. This is the lower-bound on the responsiveness of decentralized applications built on the protocol. Applications like Steem and BitShares are not really viable unless there is low latency and high certainty of finality.
EOS: 0.5 seconds
Steem/BitShares: 3 seconds
Ouroboros: 20 seconds
Irreversibility
This is how long someone must wait to be certain that a transaction will not be undone by a new/longer fork being released that excludes the transaction. Irreversibility is very important for any multi-step transactions. You don’t want to ship goods until payment is confirmed. You cannot make one trade until the prior trade is locked in. A decentralized exchange is not viable on a platform that has significant latency until irreversibility.
EOS: <= 2 seconds
Steem/BitShares: <= 45 seconds
Ouroboros: > 5 hours
Ouroboros is Unfit for Decentralized Applications
If we assume Ouroboros is actually “more provably secure” by some definition of secure, it is of little practical value because as specified the security completely compromises the practically. It would be like claiming a bullet proof vest is “provably safe” but it weighs 400 pounds. At some point other factors of system design take priority.
Unfortunately we cannot simply assume it has been proven secure. I will demonstrate that despite claims to the contrary, Ouroboros is far less secure due to faulty assumptions in its design. In other words, Ouroboros is a 400 pound bullet proof vest that doesn’t actually stop the real bullets.
Components of Delegated Proof of Stake (aka Ouroboros)
The Delegated Proof of Stake algorithm is divided into two parts:
- Selecting a set of block producers
- Scheduling the producers into time slots
The process of selecting block producers is typically derived from proof of stake which may be delegated. The set of block producers is periodically updated. In BitShares this happens every maintenance interval (1 hour), in Steem and EOS it happens every round (N blocks where N is defined as the number of producers in the set). In Ouroboros it happens every 5 days according to Charles Hoskinson in an interview where he describes the protocol.
Once the set of producers are selected they are assigned to time slots where a producer can either produce a block or not. The chain with the most consensus will have the fewest missed blocks and therefore be the longest chain. In ouroboros they call this the “density” of the chain, but the concept is the same.
Selecting Block Producers
Under Ouroboros anyone who wants to be a producer can be selected for a slot proportional to the amount of stake they own or is delegated to them. This is similar to how Steem selects 1 producer in every set (aka every minute). Whereas Steem only schedules 1 out of every 21 time slots in this manner, Ouroboros schedules all time slots with this mathematical distribution. In the case of Ouroboros only those with at least 1% of stake delegated to them are eligible to be in the set of producers, but Steem places no lower limit.
Scheduling Block Producers into Slots
The primary difference between Steem and Ouroboros’ system is that Steem uses deterministic scheduling with pseudorandom shuffling and Ouroboros uses sampling from a source of provable randomness created by a committee of randomly selected stakeholders. Oroboros places a very strong focus on the need for a trustless source of randomness in order to ensure the producer schedule isn’t manipulated by block producers manipulating the block contents so as to control the schedule.
Security Concerns addressed by Randomness
The heart of blockchain security is knowing that during every confirmation window that a diverse set of unlikely-to-collude entities produce blocks. Time to irreversibility depends upon how long it takes to get input from a 2/3+ majority of potential producers.
If the order of producer scheduling can be controlled by the producers there exists a circular dependency. This is the origin of the name Ouroboros (a snake eating its own tail). The focus of the Ouroboros design is to ensure that 2/3+ honest producers can be scheduled without interference. This is why they lock in the set of producers for days and schedule them with a set of provable randomness that no party can manipulate.
Steem / BitShares / EOS
Existing DPOS chains select a set of unlikely to collude entities by approval voting and then schedule them in a pseudorandom order. This shuffling is not really needed because once each of them participates a single block a 2/3+ consensus can be determined. This is why EOS will be removing the random shuffle all together.
With Ouroboros the length of time until 2/3+ of the stake is “randomly selected” is not known. It is entirely possible that in some windows all block producer slots will be randomly assigned to the same producer. While this is statistically unlikely, it is not unreasonable to presume that a long sequence of blocks could be assigned to collusive peers.
You can think of the process of confirmation on Ouroboros to be like an installation progress bar that jumps by random increments. Sometimes it moves forward quickly, other times it taunts you by not making any real progress despite new blocks being produced.
This gives Ouroboros unpredictable latency like Bitcoin. In the best case 2/3+ of the stake might get scheduled in the a half dozen blocks, but in the average case it will take much longer, particularly if there are many producers with 1% weight or a producer with 50% weight is scheduled many times in a row by random chance.
Distribution Security Issues
I have previously made the case that BitShares, Steem, and EOS are the most decentralized because it has the most unique confirmations per confirmation window. In a 6 block confirmation window for Bitcoin only 5 unique individuals confirm a block on average (usually at least one mining pool goes twice in a random 6 block window). In Steem 14 people confirm a block each round.
Because stake and votes are distributed by pareto principle, we know that Ouroboros will assign block producers like mining assigns mining pools. It is exceedingly unlikely that 100 producers will each have 1% of the delegated stake. It is far more likely that there will be fewer than 20 individuals with more than 1% stake required to be approved. Furthermore, there are voting paradoxes in play where voting for someone who doesn’t already have 1% or more of the stake is a wasted vote.
In past articles on proof of stake I have also shown that even if Ouroboros removed the 1% requirement to participate, it would be economically unviable to cover the cost of operating a node with income from less than 1% of the block rewards. I have also argued in the past that because stake is distributed by pareto principle, and voter selection of candidates is also selected by pareto principle, the resulting distribution of stake among producers is pareto2. In other words, stake-weighted voting creates a very high centralization that can only be countered with approval voting followed by giving the top N equal weight (like BitShares, Steem, and EOS do).
Even if the stakeholders divide their stakes and votes to attempt to even out the producer weights, the system is still ultimately under pareto control 1% of the individuals control 51% of the stake. Corruption takes place at the individual level, not the stake level. Furthermore, it is wrong to assume that large stake holders will behave like a group of smaller stakeholders of similar size. Regardless of their stake, they only have one opinion and one interest and therefore the information (good or bad) they contribute to the system is independent of the size of their stake.
Conclusion
Cardano’s Ouroboros algorithm is not mathematically secure due to bad assumptions regarding the relationship between stake and individual-judgment being distributed by the pareto principle. Furthemore, their algorithm is not “new” but a less secure slower variation of the DPOS algorithm I originally introduced in April 2014. The authors of the paper failed to cite relevant prior art or to justify why their deviations from existing art are an improvement.
A blockchain consensus algorithm claiming to value peer review needs to consider who they consider their peers and all such reviews should be public. In the blockchain space, our peers are other blockchain technology companies. From this we can see that DPOS (and variations thereof) is one of the fastest growing consensus algorithms in terms of the number of unique projects choosing it.
I am going to go a step further and claim that much of the academic research and proofs performed by Cardano’s team only bolsters the support and justification of many core DPOS concepts, even if their approach is suboptimal compared to designs of EOS, BitShares, and Steem.
A much needed post! Thank you.
I would also be interested in a post describing the falling out with Hoskinson. Not for its gossip value (although feel free to give details and quotes with some name calling ^^) but for context.
Perhaps it can shed some light on the nature of these two new projects (EOS and Cardano) and how they differ on a more fundamental level.
Enjoy the payout ;)
Explanation for high upvote
wish my comment would worth 1k (I would even take $1)
dollar on its way
wow a new record for me!
Really it is worth about $4,000 USD with the SBD around $8 and $500 of the comment going to SBD.
I'd argue that the founder appearing in a comment to explain things in such depth is worthy. If hillary clinton can get paid millions for a single speech, you're paying for the appearance just as much as the content, the difference being this is voluntary donation and public
DAT monetization...
Downvote it like I did.
Wtf? 1k for your comment? #mindblown
welcome to steemit.
I think that is unnecessary. Charles Hoskinson's behaviour speaks louder than any subjective analysis of the past. Investors have all the information they need to make solid decisions right now.
Right, EOS and cardano new two project.
Nothing personal @cob, but I'm downvoting your comment, $890 is way too excessive for a few lines of text.
competition betwern cardano and eos is a good thing. may the best platform win. in the end its the users that really win. im leaning towards eos ;)
please visit my post you ll find good content upvote me
Bitshares stands out among the second generation of crypto money with the possibilities offered by users, in fact it is a platform beyond being a crypto money. The most striking feature of this platform is the "crypto-entity". The crypto-entity is the name given to the crypto paral- lel that each user can produce at any time he wants. So anyone entering the system on this side can create their own crypto
@cob @ned
Charles brought in the money and then Dan kicked him out. I got that straight from Charles on Skype the week after it happened. But there’s more to the story that reflects even more poorly on Dan that I feel I shouldn’t blabber about. Notice @dan downvoted your comment, probably because he doesn’t ever want that information to come out.
Charles was basically driven out of ETH also. I think in both cases he wanted a more transparent and higher quality compliance with law. Neither Dan nor Vitalik wanted oversight of a board or requirements to produce certain quality of whitepapers and such. Charles likes formalism. Dan wants to operate by the seat of his pants with informalism that amounts to roughly about the academic level of a high school science project.
Yet I am not too overly impressed with IOHK thus far though. Lots of formalism, but very little in the way of significant foundational breakthroughs as far as I can find so far.
Note I used to discuss with both Dan (bytemaster) and Charles (charleshoskinson) on
bitcointalk.orgin 2013. I thought it was a strange partnership at the time, and I didn’t expect it to last long. They just seem so different. Charles is an academic. Dan is a very strange person. He is sort of mix of an engineer, snake oil salesman, and a progressive, leftist wolf wrapped in libertarian sheepskin. Very complex to try to understand his psyche.Thanks for your post!
Please Follow, Upvote & Resteem my post to help us to travel & explore more
https://steemit.com/travel/@jonbee/travel-with-us-ep-01-kushtia-sugar-mills-kushtia-bangladesh-bd-steemian
That's not how it works. You could have only got a slice if you had voted before Ned. You just gave Ned a crumb of pizza and you got squat
My response to Charles.
https://steemit.com/cardano/@dan/asking-the-right-question
Thank you, Dan. I've had a number of people ask me about this and though I've watched a video or two from Charles Hoskinson about Cardano, I felt a pause when I looked into some history.
Is it true you and him had a big falling out in the early days of BitShares? Is there somewhere people can read about this history?
Related to that, do you have somewhere you send people who are concerned about the BitShares "Great Consolidation" history? I know many investors who avoid BitShares, STEEM, and EOS because they are convinced investors will be screwed. I've been trying to find out more about this, but it's difficult to find the whole story. Currently, it seems to me, a bad decision was made to consolidate BitShares related projects (forgive me if this was during the protoshares/angelshares era, I don't know the timeline well) instead of letting them compete and run free which hurt a lot of investors. It could also be argued that was a necessary action to save BitShares during a time when all cryptocurrency markets were in massive decline. Do you have thoughts you could share or a history you could point to for people with these concerns?
Thanks again for doing so much for the cryptocurrency space to build awesome stuff that actually works.
@stan has a series of posts called "origins of bitshares." I haven't read most of them (yet), but I think what you're asking for might be covered there.
I've read this history but it only has a very small section on The Great Consolidation. To me, if that was a mistake, it's something to be highlighted and explained in detail. This is how we grow and learn. Instead of hiding our mistakes, we can highlight them and demonstrate how we learned from them and rebuilt trust through the process. If this event keeps investors away, why not explain it in detail as to what worked and what didn't and how investors and speculators were handled and how they profited or had losses. Showing how STEEM and EOS learned from that could also be very enlightening. Also, does it relate at all to the disagreement between @ned and @dan related to Smart Media Tokens? Could similar "mistakes" (if they were mistakes) be made with EOS which might harm investors? These are things I'd love to see openly discussed.
I meant posts on steem. There are way more posts here. Here's one of latest ones with list of earlier posts at the bottom. I don't know if it has any more info on The Great Consolidation though.
@sim31 thanks again for posting that. I especially like this BitSharesTalk post @stan links to there. There's a lot of good detail in there explaining the history involved.
Thanks. I've read through many of those, but will go through the latest ones as well.
Thank you, @lukestokes.
I would love to hear these things discussed in more depth as well.
It's frustrating as some people recognize how amazing DPOS technology is but think Dan (or people connected to him) took advantage of investors and so they don't want to invest now. If those people had a complete history, I wonder if they would choose to invest and by doing so, bring more resources to the DPOS community.
i love to here all this things
It would be rather ironic if dan opts not to share after his recent post about transparency.
That aisde, though. I agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly, Of course, it's not always easy to admit our mistakes, because many of us like to appear infallible. I have been guilty of this myself more times than I care to remember. But, if we can overcome this sense of competition that drives the current economy, then that wouldn't matter so much, and perhaps we could step into a world like you just described, with a new, fairer, better way of doing things.
I did learn. I learned to reserve inflation for growth and to not force the community to adopt my radical changes in thinking. I attempt to avoid repeating mistakes.
Thank you, Dan.
Would you consider doing a full, deep-dive post about this history? I would personally love to have a post I could send to potential investors with a detailed perspective on the mistakes made, the lessons learned, and the harsh realities which were unavoidable. I don't mean to sound accusatory, I just want more truth out there and some people are avoiding investment in DPOS technology purely because of their subjective (and possibly incorrect) understanding of the past. I've had conversations with people who admit DPOS is by far the best blockchain technology in existence today, but they still don't want to see it succeed because of their personal experiences. If there was a post I could send them with a detailed history of what happened, why, and what the results/lessons learned were, that would be quite helpful.
Thanks again for the amazing things you've already done and are continuing to do. I truly believe these are historic times, and you are doing historically significant work.
It shows maturity to just avoid the drama that would be caused by filling people in on the details of what happened between two people of different perspectives. They parted. The end.
Really Luke, don't you think Dan's time is better spent on solving the issues of the present and future? If those investor friends want to cut their noses off to spite their faces, isn't that up to them. They have all the information they need to make reasonable decisions just like you, don't they?
Plenty here would love to see a public story from your point of view. No matter how well/poorly handled anything ended up being, it's obvious that it ended with a solid product being created. One that's still getting better, at that.
Are you talking about how changes are made to Steem?
@adinofri1111
follow to me!
great questions, Luke. I hope @dan can clear some of this up for us.
You might enjoy this post which @sim31 linked to in a comment above. That post links to this post which has a lot of interesting details. Also, see Ned's comment above. Interesting times. :)
I really don't understand the argument for investors getting screwed. Bitshares has performed admirably and is only getting stronger. Back in the earlier days, in the Bitshares forum, many of us suggested that success could only be judged through the lens of a little more time. That being said, Dan has acknowledged mistakes and attempted to learn from them. Isn't his word enough? Dan's tech is being peer reviewed in the public domain against user adoption and it's competition.....the most rigorous kind of peer review there is. I can't see what good can come from dissecting the past any further than that. Where is the value unless it is to stir up acrimony?
Exactly. Every investor is risking their own money on their own initiative out of SPECULATION for the future. When you hear an announcement that something is going to happen that you didn't predict and the price crashes, that's your own fault for investing speculatively and not expecting anything to change. You have to be willing to lose any money you put in and not be bitter about the project going a direction you weren't expecting. Do your due diligence people.
Thanks for commenting. I've had similar feelings that there may have been some differences in timescale (maybe speculator verses investor thinking?).
That said, where can I find a full post about mistakes and lessons learned? I don't necessarily think that would stir up acrimony (though it might), but I do think it might clarify historical reality and hopefully bring peace and harmony to those who are still upset (maybe unjustifiably so?) about the past. I've been told "just read bitsharestalk" when I ask for clarification on what people were so frustrated about. Maybe some specific links might help, but to me, a well thought out post would be best.
Use this wisely, Gresham's law, seems insightful here, (worth googling) , remember the market is highly irrational , especially now. It is consistent with this irrationality that marketing trumps reality and ADA is priced higher than EOS.
I like the project but can't invest because there is no wallet for linux which is a bit of a red flag
it's an ERC20 token at the moment.
Do you have a source for that? @ashe-oro as to me it looks like they have their own main net and block explorer if it was an ICO they would be using https://etherscan.io and I've tried searching for their token and it;s not listed
Also this doesn't explain why they have a windows wallet and not linux as we have been requesting this for months now
the actual EOS tokens aren't available until the blockchain is launched.
Ohhhhh u were talking about the Cardano tokens. I'm not sure, I dont' follow the project closely.
I'll sell by June then buy back after its launched officially. The registration on Ethereum is quite tricky.
I have the wallet running on linux https://github.com/h4ck3rm1k3/cardano-sl
Nice work but I like to wait for official releases as I nearly got burnt once so am being extra careful! Looks very professional however so I'm sure it's probably safe
EOS is still an ERC-20 token.
You can use any ethereum wallet of your choosing.
There won't be an official wallet till the launch of EOS(june) or later.
I'm digging the Steemit more and more, finding threads like this @lukestokes. I think I need 1 year vacation to spend 8 hours a day on steemit!
Oh what shocking news, after hundreds of people put their money into Cardano it turns out to be a "product" without a chance to survive against others :D One can´t mention it often enough: Due Your own research before you invest!
It's just like living through the dot-com era all over again! Hundreds and hundreds of startups with stock pricing going straight to the moon, only to crash down to earth again. Remember petsupplies.com? Have your pet supplied delivered straight to your door. Well, it did happen, only it's call Amazon.com.
During the dot com era people really had no clue what this internet thing was and how it would develop. Cryptos are also uncharted waters but in my opinion it's easier to predict the future for them because they are based on this infrastructure called the internet. The example you made with petsupplies and amazon.com is very interesting because it shows how this crypto space will likely develop in the future, my guess is that only protocol coins will survive and all the petsupplies.com of this world will be built on top of these blockchain.
Glad to see this response. I lost respect for Charles and the Cardano project after seeing him, multiple times, essentially shilling Cardano in the Bitshares Telegram group as if he's doing the community there a favor.
Then, he posts a link to a YouTube live "AMA" (interview with youtuber) and he claims 1) he can't comment on EOS because he doesn't follow it nor read up on it (I smell stinky bullshit)... and 2) he claims bitUSD as a "wonky failed experiment" or something like that. Ummm.... bitUSD (and its sibling bitassets / smartcoins) are about to take Bitshares to the moon.
(shout out to the mods there, who went on to ban him from that group :)
All this academic talk being tossed around by Charles is funny. Academia is well known for doing research, for the sake of research, and not commercializing or transferring that IP into the real world.
The fact that their market cap is ~4x EOS right now after the insane pump recently only justifies a much higher price point for EOS.
CH cannot bring himself to acknowledge the work of others. He touts standards for peer review, research and acknowledgment yet blatantly falls short of observing those standards himself.
Yeah, that really stuck in my craw while reading the whitepaper, and I immediately called bullshit!
Thanks for writing this @dan.
in the real world, an influencer is paid by his/her ability to generate ad revenue or change opinions which are ultimately paid by the end ad buyer or influence buyer. steemit right now is self jerking its esteem power without any end buyers through steem tokens chased by crypto gamblers not much different tulip gamblers. crypto inventors lack understanding of economics.
Cardano is completely overvalued. They haven't even implemented anything yet.
They are willing to work hard to implement something that is worse than dPoS. nice.
They've implemented plenty. Their native token is being used on their blockchain, with their native wallet. It has withstood a $20 billion bug bounty via the hostile open Internet so far. They have a long way to go, but make regular progress reports. They started from scratch, unlike many projects which were a fork from pre-existing code, so they have done a lot to get this far.
How will EOS determine the order of the block producers? If the order is not pseudorandom can this be exploited in some way?
As I am interested in the issue of determining the order of the block producers in EOS, today I read from their whitepaper( https://github.com/EOSIO/Documentation/blob/master/TechnicalWhitePaper.md )
"The top 20 by total approval are automatically chosen every round and the last producer is chosen proportional to their number of votes relative to other producers. The selected producers are shuffled using a pseudorandom number derived from the block time. This shuffling is done to ensure that all producers maintain balanced connectivity to all other producers."
According to my understanding of the quote, the producers will be shuffled. The whitepaper was updated 4 months ago, though. @dan (or anybody of good will), could you please clarify the issue?
See the "Removing block producer schedule shuffling" section in the most recent eos.io development update
Thank you Dan~~good information
Very interesting post.
This man is a BlockChain genius!💂
This ego to the fullest.
No wonder we have so many coins.
It is clear we need multiple taste, but as we can see, ego plays big in these variants.
Consider:
What the community WANTS is what the community GETS.
This is P2P and we get to support what we WANT 2 B.
absolutely I agree @surfyogi 2B supported and I support
DPOS is currently the best option we have...
I hope other coins will also switch to it, to save planet earth from evil aliens who brought us Bitcoin so we heat ourselves to death :(
https://steemit.com/meme/@daltono/eos-greater-than-cardano-here-is-why-201816t10515180z
hahahahah.
U dick!
Follow me for follback
EOS is far superior than any of the proposed platforms... Looking forward for EOS wallet launch!
I also think so.
Me too.
Happy to see @markzuckerbegs quitting facebook, supporting Steem and cryto-currencies! LOL
he is not the one..so please be careful
I knew...haha!
ooh kk..friend...haha
Agreed my friend!
I was just recently reading the ouroboros whitepaper and realized it was a poor copy of your work. I'm glad to see your post here. It would be much more interesting to me had they acknowledged your work or sought your advice. I'm very interested in all that can be done with your DPOS technology, but after looking through the ouroboros whitepaper for a bit, there were enough signs to cross this one off my list.
Totally agree. Same for me.
ADA is just collecting value to be transferred to EOS once the chain goes live. Same with ETH. It is probably not unreasonable to assume that the market caps of ADA and ETH will move to EOS by Q3 2018.
Mmm, not sure. ADA/ETH investors are clearly not doing their research before investing. I bet they will miss the boat still holding their worthless bags.
ETH has advantages : it worked first, has a rich ecosystem of dapps that will be released these next months, and strong and skilled leadership (what is killing bitcoin), so it may copy new techniques from EOS or other competitors
WE SHALL SEE and if not, bye bye
A much needed post! Thank you.
I hardly understood anything written here but I'm looking forward to read what kind of comments @dan 's ex-spouse @ned has to reply here..
Yeah ... @dan those last minute votes are a shame... but honestly, what gets on my nerves much more is those early paid votes that clog up the hot and trending pages with shitposts.
imho it would be more important to prevent paid votes before the posts are a day or maybe 2 old. I get that this initiative targets improved correctability (if that's a word) of post rewards but I think re-enabling organic discovery through "normally" curated trending/hot sections would be of greater effect!
just my two cents!
#kittensunite
edit: oh and blacklists... why can't we just get all those meme-re-posters blacklisted in the big voting bots... damn, i forgot again, they all just care for the ka-ching and couldn't give less shit about the health of this ecosystem...
#rantover
editagain: and just to be clear, yes I do use voting bots, it would be silly to let the shameless walk away with all of it by themselves... but I do play it fair and vote my stuff at 3-5 days - my "real" supporters get their curation and you get your chance to correct me if neccessary...
great post dude
It provides a student perspective on identifying the skills and criteria that form the basis for evaluation. Emotional assessment also enhances students' confidence in themselves. It helps the person to get feedback from someone other than the teacher. It provides a student perspective on the determination of the skills and criteria that form the basis of the assessment. However, this assessment also has some drawbacks. For example; friendship among peers can lead to high or low scores for each other. They can give each other high marks by agreeing between themselves. Peers can score high because of physical strength. Also, peers are not as knowledgeable and conscious as teachers. Peer-reviewed evaluation tools are listed in the checklist. It is useful to give the criteria to the students to prevent the students' misbehavior. @dan
Good points. Thanks to @ned for his perspective.
Absolutely I agree. I thank you. For both the answer and the vote. @surfyogi
Cardamon :D
Thanks! I was just about tp check this topic.
Dan,
When I first heard about this post I was eager to read it. Peer review, and constructive criticism in general is incredibly useful for improving the technology. As an investor in Cardano, I'm open to a realistic assessment from someone outside of the project.
Unfortunately, peer review doesn't work when there is a conflict of interest. You can't criticize Cardano whilst at the same time shamelessly shilling EOS, which conveniently, happens to be your project!
You can't say "EOS takes 0.2 seconds to process X, and Cardano takes about 2 weeks".
All credibility lost. For shame!
Reasonable point.
True. He probably makes some points, but it's still a conflict of interest.
I love the tag @Dan chose :)
Great post!
Thanks @dan very complicated but I get the gist. I have been wondering lately what effect the launch of Eos will have on steemit. Is it a positive, negative or no effect?
I like Steem Dan but you seem salty. Charles has also poked holes in the claims of EOS.
Show me the hole and I’ll plug it.
Bam!
He does seem a bit salty in this post. Have to agree. Seems to be a lot about not getting credit he felt he deserved as much as it is actual problems with Cardano.
He did deserve credit
Dan does not care about credit. In the open source community, you should at least acknowledge when you work on top of other's achievements, even if, like Cardano team, you do not bring value to the space by doing so.
reference?
Upvoting you just because, as Dan, I would like to see those holes.
@adammac do you realize that you flagged yourself on this post?
Interesting take inn Cardano not many people show this side of the project
It is quite funny that this article is published in 'cardamon'... :D
Safari auto correct got me.
:D:D
Thank you for this post. A lot of people seem to buy coins without actually knowing the technology behind any of them just because they see them going up on Coin Market Cap. Which I've learned from previous experience is not generally a wise move. So I hope this post will be pretty grounding for the average crypto enthusiast.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks again.
@fortified
Wow, ver informative! Thank you and best of luck with EOS!
I'm glad I've only invested a small amount into Cardano, thank you @dan for the heads up - just sold my stake in them. Also, I just purchased open.EOS on the Bitshares exchange and it's sitting in my Bitshares exchange wallet now. Do I have to register these tokens now on the website or send it to myetherwallet? I've heard some things about that US investors are unable to participate.
Yes, if you live is the USSA you need to register your EOS using myetherwallet. Yes, prisoners such as yourself are forbidden by your SEC to participate in this token distribution.
it's ok to trade for the EOS tokens on Bitshares though. right?
@showtime24 I actually asked @stan that exact question on a livestream and his replied was quite enlightening. You can see exactly what he said on my post here : https://steemit.com/bitshares/@daltono/american-gothic-remastering-feat-stan-larimer-and-connie-willis
Thank you @daltono @ponts I will look into this and if I have any questions, I know who to talk to! Are there any other steps, like do I have to register anything on the eos.io website? Use a vpn?
Well if you are using Exodus wallet to hold your EOS like I am, my blog post also has a link to the Exodus website that has a very thorough walkthrough. I decided to trade my open.EOS for erc20 EOS because I had no plans of actually trading me EOS. So there really was no point in holding it on BitShares. Be sure to read my blog post I linked on my first comment for a complete explanation.
Here is a reply I got from Exodus support regarding EOS:
Spaces between characters in Vimeo link added intentionally
I've been holding off registering hoping that Exodus will take care of it for me.
They may, but I didn't want to even have to worry about having to do it anymore. Relying on others can be stressful at times. I prefer handling business.
Yes, I read your blog post thank you. I have exodus, but I currently have my open.EOS on the BTS exchange. Do I need to move the open.EOS to exodus first and then move that to MyEtherwallet with a VPN?
You would want to transfer your open.EOS to your Exodus wallet. From that point you will follow this guide here : http://support.exodus.io/article/65-i-ve-received-eos-tokens-in-exodus-how-do-i-register-them
You won't actually have to send your EOS from Exodus to MyEtherWallet. The guide I just linked will walk you through how to connect your Ethereum Private Keys from Exodus to MyEtherWallet.
The guide is very self explanatory, just read it carefully and do just as it says and everything will work out accordingly. If you have any troubles just reply back to me here :)
Thanks for the valuable info. The big problem with crypto is that change happens at a lightning fast pace!
I can attest to the value of this guide. It's not hard at all. But allow yourself to follow the step by step procedure at a leisurely pace. Don't be in a big hurry and don't be multi-tasking. Take your time, it's easy.
Would you be able to post the link? would save me time. Thanks! @daltono
http://support.exodus.io/article/65-i-ve-received-eos-tokens-in-exodus-how-do-i-register-them
Cardano is a bargain today!
Thank you for this post. While i do not understand the technical stuff completely, I wonder why the current market cap compared to steem is so high. I know a better investment than Cardano...
@Dan Charles Hoskinson said he worked on BitShares, Could you explain what work he did? He also was the co-founder of ethurem and worked on ethurem classic but I am unclear on his exact role on these projects.
Charles left bitshares before we even launched protoshares mining and before any of the innovation in bitshares was conceived. At the time we were still thinking bitshares would be proof of work. The final pegging solution wasn’t locked down until a year after he left. He does get credit for getting me initial funding and attention at the Atlanta conference.
Charles is great at raising money. He rides on coat tails of others tech innovation.
@dan I love your brutal honesty. I am a seeker of truth, so I resonate with your actions wholeheartedly. Earth is beyond blessed to have you showcasing what a harmonic human being is capable of.
Keep up your efforts, you will always have people like me behind you.
Infinite love my brother 👽
Soooooo true! +1
Thank you for this clarification.
Great to know, I kinda figured Charles was riding on coat trails of other tech innovation especially now after him talking about all the "scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach" and "peer review" happening with Cardano. He imo is appealing to authority instead of proving the math/code/work like Bitcoin is all about and what you have done with Steemit and BitShares.
But I agree Charles is great at raising money considering Cardano is worth over $25 billion atm.
Anyways, I am greatly interested in the next gen blockchain. This post certainly helped in clearing a lot of questions I had. How often do you review other projects? I know you're extremely busy but I would be curious on what you think of raiblocks which is supposedly an "instant, fee-less, scalable transactions" cryptocurrency. I knew BitShares and steemit already have those features but considering raiblocks marketcap is now bigger than both I am not sure if I am missing something about the appeal of raiblocks.
Thanks
No offence, but please come back. We need you more than ever. Division is bad. As the British miners of the 1980s found. Unity is strength.
Highly rEsteemed!
Great post sir, Is it a good time to invest in Cardano @dan
Did you read the post? Damn son..
lol I did but was it goes beyond my head i know my question is irreverent. :p
Quite the contrary friend, Dan is explaining how Cardano's design is slow and utterly...useless.
lololololol... didn't read that post huh?
:D lol looks like i got unnecessary attention, but was thinking to invest in cardado so without hesitating i asked about it :p sorry about that readers :D
No.
That would be a NO
Thanks @ponts what do you think where should i invest? any suggestions?
Eos :)
Thanks :)
ARDR is also at historically low price points at this moment (versus BTC). 60+% off at the moment. EOS has gone down a bit versus BTC but not nearly as much as ARDR. That is how you know it is a great coin: EOS and BTS have a strong support where they won't dive as much as many other coins. That also means it is a coin to HODL and NOT day trade because you can't often buy back into your position at a lower rate after a sale.
Thank you, Dan, for this indepth, and human readable, analysis.
So much of what blockchain developers write and share about projectsis vastly over complicated - I applaud you for making this easy to understand.
I've always been a believer in the EOS project. Good luck.
he follow and upvote I follow and upvote back
Regarding EOS: "I'll check them out when they release something".
Fuck this guy.
Technically, if EOS is superior compared to ADA then time will tell if there will eventually be mass adoption.
i'm not deep enough into this stuff to know who's right or whatever, but cardano is literally just a whitepaper, right? And steem has actually been working for quite some time, right?
my $ is on eos.
No, Cardano has a running open blockchain with a native token and wallet. Early stage software, but it is working and protecting over $20 billion in value. You could always look at their website/github if you wanted to inform your opinions.
i was using literally in the non-literal sense. an open blockchain with a native token and wallet is not what cardano is about. i could literally have that up and running almost instantly, you can pay a service or use forknote and boom, blockchain and token, wallet.
that's not what cardano is about though, is it? in their roadmap, you'll see that all they have is a baseline mainnet. None of the features they are promising are finished.
That was my point, and it still stands, and I already informed my opinions.
"Byron established the baseline for Cardano in allowing users to trade and transfer Ada. Shelley is focused on ensuring that key elements are in place so that the technology grows into a fully decentralised and autonomous system. Expected Q2 2018."
so q2 2018 they will hopefully have more than a token that you can transfer.
he follow and upvote I follow and upvote back
Shots fired, lol jk would be interested to hear their response.
Here is the complete reply from Charles:
" * That's Dan Larimer doing what Dan Larimer does best * Claiming he invented everything and everything else is junk * Bonus points if you guys can find the article he wrote about ethereum on bitsharestalk.org * Back in 2014 * Where he called us an interesting computer science project * That won't go anywhere * Because he somehow still has influence we will write a proper rebuttal * But basically here is the quick rebuttal * Protocol design when you're talking about secure protocols starts with security definitions * https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/765 * This is the initial Foundation upon which all consensus protocols ought to be judged in our space * It defines what a secure Ledger is * Next you need to prove that proof Works satisfy this so you have a benchmark * Then you need to prove proof of stake satisfies this * From that point it's a game of taking unrealistic assumptions and gradually making them practical and performant * And this is what we have been doing for a year-and-a-half * In an extremely systematic way * As can be demonstrated by all the revisions that we've pushed to ePrint * For both Ouroboros and Ouroboros praos * The section on random number generation is just plain wrong * The threshold is 50% and we are using a multi-party computation protocol * Which is the gold standard * We even invented a new protocol specifically for this task * Called scrape * 216.pdf * it's just extraordinary to me how people can be so profoundly naive about the process upon which one has to follow to ensure a protocol is properly designed * This is not a subjective process * This is a well-understood process which has given us modern cryptography * There are standards and benchmarks you have to adhere to * As for citations our protocol is distinctly different * Delegated proof of stake is basically paxos with a voting system bolted on * Somehow Dan forgot to cite Leslie Lamport * He stoled work from the 1970s * We have nothing in common with this idea * I honestly try very hard to avoid commenting on his work * But when I see things like this it just makes me sad * Noticed there was absolutely no discussion about the network side of things * Let's go ahead and talk about a million transactions per second but have absolutely no strategy to store or to move that data"
"Where he called us an interesting computer science project * That won't go anywhere"
Well, IMO, he was right. A couple additionnal cryptokitties projects should convince you. Regarding the "stolen work from the 1970s", I assume this could be a humoristic description of any current blockchain technology.
Found at
In my experience ETH software is just horrible, the worst, and I won't let my family use it...
Much appreciated fir the heads up @dan, i was about to pull the trigger on investing. @bitshares phone app was buggy so i bailed.
So you gave up on bts because of a phone app? there site works fine on mobile btw, not that anyone should be investing on there phone in the first place... and you will heavily regret selling your bitshares
Yes, i used their app that i downloaded from the googke play store to sign up. If that is buggy, despite reinstalling, its not a good first taste. No such problems with dash, doge, or jaxx.
I am just so happy to find Dan on steemit. and get this close to him.
Enjoy the vote and reward!