In the Splinterlands proposal comment section, I had a very interesting conversation with @lordbutterfly about Hive marketing. What is worth it, what is not, what has results, etc.
Although he didn't say so, the conversation suggested that he thought things were going pretty well. DHF (especially valueplan) money is well and usefully spent.
I'm of the complete opposite opinion, and one of the main reasons is that I sold my little Hive months ago. I would like to note here that besides @lordbutterfly I can only list a few people who I can at least assume have the intention to grow Hive and doing something for that.
However, the way he does it together with several individuals, it seems far from appropriate, efficient and cost-effective to me.
In simpler terms: the amount spent by DHF on marketing has no tangible results. A lot of money is spent regularly, without results for a long time. This is also proven by the DAU, MAU numbers.
I could pretty much question every 2nd spending from valueplan, also other DHF fundings, but the reason why I am writing this post, and ask your opinion is:
I mentioned why don't they advertise Hive on Twitch by streamers? The answer was: too expensive.
Well, I asked a few streamers, just out of curiosity, if they would take on the promotion of Hive on Twitch and I also asked them for a price quote.
The most noticeable change compared to previous years is that nowadays almost all medium and above streamers have a manager. There was only one who answered directly. One of the management agencies also indicated specific prices in their response.
Thanks so much for reaching out to Emily! Happy to provide rates for her Twitch stream as I think she is a great fit. I am also including the rates of other major streamers who expressed interest in opportunities like this, so they will all be listed below.
Emily
Price per 2 hours = $15,000
Price per 3 hours = $22,500
Cyr - 2k CCV
Price per 2 hours = $5,000
Price per 3 hours = $7,500
Tectone - 8.3k CCV
Price per 2 hours = $20,000
Price per 3 hours = $27,500
Emiru - 16k CCV
Price per 2 hours = $33,000
Price per 3 hours = $45,000
Nmplol - 11k CCV
Price per 2 hours = $22,500
Price per 3 hours = $32,000
Mizkif - 19k CCV
Price per 2 hours = $41,000
Price per 3 hours = $55,000
Please note all rates above are the creators' preferred rates, meaning we are happy to negotiate to make a deal happen.
Let me know if you have any questions!
The above are top streamers, most of them have half -2 million followers on Twitch. They are definitely not cheap - more expensive than I previously thought -, but within the framework of a group campaign, together with several streamers with fewer average viewers and followers, a medium Twitch campaign can be put together with 2 x 1-hour streams for each individual. I mean 4-5 top streamers and 10-20 smaller ones. Based on the above prices, the total cost of this would be somewhere between $100-200k. (I am pretty confident above prices could be reduced, if they would be introduced to Hive, and understand their longer term earning potential, opportunity to grow their Twitch community and create a new one here, too or by bulk buy.)
Nearly $200k was spent on the rally car this year alone. (Here, I could also mention leofinance, who came with the promise, they will double the Hive users number for around the same amount.) There are also other regular, ongoing spendings, without visible results. I highlighted this one, because this is the biggest one, and could cover the cost of a Twitch campaign itself.
What would fit into 2 x 1-hour streams? Obviously, this would only be about Hive, I also included in my request for the quote that the stream should be created together with a regular, experienced Hive user or whale, where the streamer registers, posts a blog, tries some dapps (for example 3speak or a game) ask his/her questions in the first half of the hour, and in the second half could hold giveaways for their audience to join Hive. So in this way, the person who would represent Hive could control the way of the stream.
In addition, the streamer could receive Hive delegation, from which he could reward his newly registered followers on Hive for a given period of time (1 month?) at his discretion. Hive could even create a community for them, or introduce to an existing one. Deal could be extended by 1-2 weekly blog posts on Hive in the agreement.
After that, it could be repeated in 1 week+, only spending the first half hour with Hive economy. (or whatever else people in charge think more worhty)
In your opinion, which one is worth more? Should they spend this amount on a rally car through a year, or, as described above, on Twitch streamer sponsorship in 1 month?
Which has more marketing value? Which can bring more users to Hive? Which better targets Hive's target audience?
What other advertising ideas would you have that reach the masses, target audiance and are affordable for the amount of the DHF budget?
Pictures owned by Hive and Twitch.
Honestly looking at those numbers I see no benefit to either lol Those twitch prices are crazy and honestly it doesn't work. The only way it would kind of make sense is what like Splinterlands did and we saw that provide next to any results. Sponsorship deals don't work and there needs to be a clear viable path that someone watching would be interested in crypto in the first place or joining a project on the platform. Simply promoting Hive as a place to come blog and make money is idiotic yet it's what happens all the time. It should be promoted as a please to come develop and build your application. That's where the growth is going to happen through applications which is something Hive has never targeted and most likely never will thus this is why you have a depressed hive price during a bull market. It's falling behind other blockchains that do offer these things. The DHF does have value in development of some core assets but until Valueplan starts to attract developers to build their application on hive it's a downhill battle as we have clearly seen FOR YEARS yet we keep doing it for some dumb reason.
There was an idea of using some of the funds to literally buy games that would use the invenium/SPL system for monetization.
We would essentially buy the game, absorb the community and offer monetization to the game itself. Issue here... finding the game that would be willing to do this and paying whats fair at user size. :)
That actully sounds like a solid viable option to try. But yes that's a big issue lol normally people in crypto are very attached to their projects.
No. It would be a web2 game not a web3 one. Just a regular game turned crypto. Starting small and going bigger after proof of concept on smaller investment. Invenium in essence turns a web2 game into a web3 game using the system similar to the one SPL or GLS has.
Its a decent idea.
Problem is not having enough people wiling to literally waste weeks of their time digging and working on stuff like this. Sometimes not really getting anywhere and not giving up.
Im juggling 10 things at the same time and Im not paid jack shit, contrary to what Pokermania wrote that he thinks is happening with VP with "project managers". 😂
We kinda need masochistic volunteers willing to suffer pain, community disgruntlement and constant failure to get 1 hit for Hive and not even profit themselves. haha. And those are 1 in a million. lol
Ah alright well I mean that positions Invenium is a rather good spot but there's a bit of competition out there now. Almost like need ambassadors of hive to do the work. I'll see if I can piece anything together and push it over to the team. I mean I love Splinterlands and all the other things they are trying to build on hive at the moment and have been supporting that pretty heavy. Always more we could do :)
Nexo Digital is preparing something similar to what you said... We're organizing and preparing to launch our first Open Tibia server...
Tibia is one of the oldest MMORPGs and has an extremely active community. What we're preparing is a server called Nexo Champions, which will be a private Tibia server that will pay players through rankings and seasonal events.
The server should have its first closed test for the Nexo Digital and Hive community in August and its official launch should take place in October.
Nexo Digital has never asked for funds from the DHF and has been developing and paying for the servers with its own funds and having a slow development because we have an extremely small team but little by little we are building what we believe is good for our community and good for Hive!
We are weekly on our discord talking about the project and updating the community. Currently, our weekly meetings are held in Portuguese because that's our current audience, but we'd be very happy to expand and hold a weekly talk in English to talk about Nexo Champions in English or even in Spanish if the Spanish and English speaking community is interested.
Probably you know there are a lot different streamers on Twitch (not only gaming, esports - i could see onboarding some of those as a big step, too), even if still the no1 thing what you could promote is micro-blogging, 3speak. atm you can't 1st promote games, as they are in terrible condition, so start to promote them would cause more damage than advantage. there is just simply nothing else atm on Hive what you can promote: blog (and 3speak)
I also think, DHF should fund new projects - instead of operational cost for 3-4-5 front-ends for the blog side. But I have very basic knowledge about that part, so dont have opinion, however, Twitch has programmer, developer community, streamers, too. I am pretty sure, they have no idea about Hive, so that part could be promoted, too. Just have to find the right streamers.
https://www.twitch.tv/directory/category/software-and-game-development/videos/all
and not to mention the chance, that it can reach higher level investors, too. lots of studios, devs are around esports players, for example.
Just a quick idea. I guess, devs on Hive are not doing great nowadays, DHF could sponsor one to stream on Twitch, how other devs are doing there and building audiance, promote Hive. (or in some other form, whereever else they are active, reddit, github)
I think, it's a very cost efficient way and at least, staying in Hive user pocket, even if he can't reach wilder audiance.
Hehe. Thats not the proper poll question.
https://peakd.com/@pokermaria/re-lordbutterfly-sgvyw7
not like many people will answer, just for myself. So irrelevant, but what else should i ask?
basically, you said, it's too expensive (no money for it), what close out the option, asking for it from DHF, above all the rest ongoing spendings, so i just picked one from the 2 major things, what could cover it, ongoing for a while, and doesnt show results. (also could collect the lots of small spendings without results, what all together could cover it, too.)
in hard times, projects usually do regroupings, i think, it's pretty much the hard time category for Hive and seems to me nobody see the way out, just praying for 'alt season', in the middle of bull market...
your strategy is excellent but it fails to take into account a very important point... Infrastructure... Hive doesn't have the structural conditions to host the onboarding of even 30,000 people, let alone a streamer audience with millions of viewers.
Imagine paying that kind of money for a streamer and when he's onboarding, the front-ends just give errors and crash all the time. Then he goes to explain about a second layer token and the hive engine nodes are down and inaccessible...
DHF's money should be spent on development, not marketing... without development you can bring in millions of people and all of them will become inactive over time, leaving only the web3 degens...
Once you have a good infrastructure, then you can talk about spending the community's fortunes on marketing.
Of course, there are exceptions, such as games that bring money into Hive and use their own infrastructure to help where Hive still fails today.
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Well, I don't know good enough that part. I just see, they spend a lot more for different kind of marketing, ads without result - and this was my MAIN POINT. Nothing goes for online marketing. I just thought, it can't crash because of few thousands sign-ups within 10-15 minutes.
Mentioned several times here and there, it's a shame Hive doesn't have a 'welcome page', also the unnecessary several front-ends and why DAO financing their operational cost.
I also don't understand, why they don't fund new projects on Hive. And many other things.
I just got educated, who, how, why moving things around in the background, so now I know, it just goes how it has to. + I underderstand why outsider crypto guys put Hive in the 'zombie-chain' category. Too bad, I've found it out too late...
It seems to me that you don't really understand how decentralization works since most of the complaints I see come from decentralization, which is Hive's main feature...
It's worth remembering that the crypto space is essentially an ideological space above anything else. And Hive has a lot to say in this regard, and obviously it loses out in many ways to other centralized blockchains that are focused solely on making a profit for the companies that are on it...
A decentralized scenario brings countless opportunities, but with them countless difficulties as well, and Hive is the most decentralized network today
I understand the decentralization. What I see on Hive, in practice, is not that. The DAO itself is not decentralized, with it's less than 20% proposal approval rate. How I see, this is the reason why so many front-ends exist, it can feed the few, basically by doing nothing progressive.
I see, here the few use the 'decentralized' word the same how our 'leaders' use the 'democratic' word. Pretty much everybody with a bit common sense see, the democracy doesn't exist at all, but a good curtain to cover reality.
So, since it's not decentralized in practice, the few are in the charge (not elected 'leaders', not even those elected, who do marketing - nor have any relevant knowledge -, they just simply make the decisions by money, and they setup the approval rate at so low, that each group of interests could get what they want). If they can adapt these kind of governance from real world, they could even adapt more.
Currently, in practice, I see it as a totalitarian corporate communist-fascist system here, very far from decentralization.
A system like this never will attract investors, developers, other projects, when it does, these guys will scream for another fork, how they did it in the past.
This 'system' is pretty much equal with our current real world one, ain't no different, no matter what fancy words, ideas they push to cover reality.
Who watches paid programming/advertisements on Twitch? What kind of streams are these? Are they disguised somehow so the viewer doesn't know they're watching a form of advertising?
Legit questions. How is it appealing to the viewer?
Streamers must indicate if they have broadcast a sponsored program. That's in the Twitch terms of use. Usually they put it in the 'About' (and stream description) section, too, so during the sponsored period, people can find it there, even if they actually make a regular stream. (Also possible to extend it to their other social medias. For example Twitter.)
They stream mostly in the 'Just chatting' category, but gamings, too, sometimes they do streams together. This agency (MythicTalent) has a bunch of other streamers, too, mostly gamers. I suppose, they sent these, because in their opinion, too, these guys' followers are the best match to blogging platform, Hive. (many bored people, people with a lot of free time hanging out on their streams)
Generelly, they (HiveTeam) should find the categories and streamers that best fit Hive. It's obviously the same. Primarily watched by the streamer's followers, who would be watching anyway. For example: in my opinion for the blog side the streamers in the 'just chatting' section are the best match, but also gamers who travel a lot, and they stream about they trips could be a match for travel communities, also programmer streamers, or even chess, as stayoutoftherz doing that chess community on Hive, too. But an esport player followers could be a match for 3speak, games, too.
It's the job of a marketing project manager to find the best match and cost effective ones. I just see that a web3 project doesn't do any real, working online marketing, but spends a significant amount of money on other marketing without results. Besides, I don't know of a cheaper online advertising option that reaches the masses.
Sponsored streams that I have watched in recent years: Crypto poker rooms (ACR, Coinpoker) - they sponsored streamers of all categories, from esports, through chess players, travel and chat streamers as well. (Streamer got money and he had to play in the poker room for given time + Freerolls were organized for streamers' followers, which the streamer also played live on the sponsor's platform, and giveaways were held during breaks.)
New crypto projects, I have participated in them - mostly NFT games (with free to play). They usually did the live stream together with a representative of the project. It was introduced, tried, played and during that they did giveaways among the viewers of the stream or organized private tournament for them - up to game type.
The rest that I saw were more related to product sales and the streamer talked about it for 1-2 minutes at intervals per stream.
I watch on Twitch poker and crypto stuff, so can't say much about other categories, how they do similar ones. A project manager with relevant experience must know that part, too, which way is the best one. I suppose, my core description is not so off.
Anyway, there are other sponsorship options too, like sponsoring esports events, players wearing logos, appear Hive banner, link, description in streamers 'about' section etc. what are also nearer to target audiance than actual ongoing Hive marketings. (I have no idea how much that would cost, it was just mentioned by 1 of these streamer management agencies.)
Huge advantage for Hive: it can be tried for free, no cost at all.
Hive in general is difficult to market. In my mind it doesn't make sense to market Hive at all. Decentralized. We have people going in all directions at once. Several businesses in a sense all offering unique opportunities to create outside interest.
Even the content creator is a business. Interesting content shared outside is a form of marketing Hive, without even mentioning Hive. Thousands of unique opportunities to lure eyes this way. People could be signing up to support things they like. It's the only platform around where people are paid to be entertained and paid to be supportive. Everywhere else and traditionally, that behavior always comes at a cost but here, one still owns their HP and could have their money back if they choose to leave. That concept could be marketed by thousands of individuals all while providing the consumer with endless options.
I've been pointing that out for over half of a decade... lol
Then we have communities. LEO for instance. Splinterlands. Whatever else. When they market themselves, they're indirectly marketing Hive. Hundreds of businesses independently marketing themselves to their markets, is more powerful that marketing just Hive.
As for the rally car. I don't mind that. I was hoping it could lead to things like the advertising being included in the popular racing games as well. Plenty of exposure there. I admit I haven't been following the progress. Not sure how well they do but in the event something amazing happens, by chance of course, the entire community would feel the impact. Strange thing about that is: they don't have to win. Something like a crazy crash or a wicked jump could go viral. Millions of views and highlight reels for decades. I just hope they don't test that theory intentionally lol.
I'm not saying that to convince you it's a good idea though.
I'm not convinced the Twitch thing is a good idea. And if the goal you have in mind is to attract more content creators, thinking that brings value, I hate to break it to you but that actually only ends up costing this place money. What's actually missing is the audience. We built a stadium. We pay the baseball players. We refuse to sell tickets to the game. And it's so weird because this is the only place you get paid to watch the game. You'd think people would be interested in that, since they do it all the time anyway, and quite often pay. Look at all the money they make on those streams. Billions would enter this ecosystem if people knew they no longer have to waste their money on content creators, yet could still support them the exact same way.
That's easy to market.
Have a good one.
I think you are on to something. It would probably work better than sponsoring a rally car. But I can't say for sure.
The most influential and, in my opinion, best way to attract people to Hive, is by making onboarding easy.
Have more communities that call for engagement, sort of like Reddit.
Let newcomers have some "loaned" HP until they have some of their own and understand the importance of it and preferably also some understanding of the ecosystem itself.
Maybe use some kind of quiz after a month or so, that test their knowledge and understanding of the basics.
sure, it would be good opportunity to get feedback from web2 real content creators and from average web2 users, followers, audiance, too.
Its not in any way shape or form better. Go read the initial discussion. He proposed it cost 2000 USD when in fact he came back with 70 000 USD. Its an absurd proposition.
And that 70k is gone forever on a random target audience.
I see the issue. I'm no marketing or financial expert, but I think a better audience would be reached via streaming than via rally. Although the rally sounded nice at first
like the rally car ;)
No, the car is still here.
LOL
Personal opinion, rally car anytime. I see no value whatsoever in twitch.
@tipu curate
Upvoted 👌 (Mana: 55/75) Liquid rewards.
May I ask, what value do you see for a small web3 business in traditional advertisments, like sponsoring a rally car? In all aspects, reaching users, developers and investors. (I tried to look it back, not sure since how many years for example the rally car logo ads ongoing, but I just couldn't find a single investor who came abroad because of that. (I couldnt find any investor who came here thanks to all the traditional marketings.) + how I read, people who did Hive fork, did it because they didn't want investors in Steem, so neither here, so what for is rally car ads then? don't need investors, and for users... pretty much any kind of online marketing is a lot cheaper, even google ads.)
Perhaps, I could see a very small value (still far from cost effective) for a better known brand, or at least one with a good name pick, what can be found online, search engines show within the first few results.
Kinda controversial, that Hive and people in charge (i know, decentralized, still few people in charge over marketing, as well) use the marketings what was (cost) effective 30-40 years ago, before internet. Top of that, we talk about a web3 project.
And I see ZERO online marketing. Next to that, all other crypto projects I am involved, doing online marketing. And pretty much all doing better than Hive. I just assume, way over 50% of their marketing budget spent online.
Whenever I asked about it a person, who is near to decision making, the answer always was: too expensive, not effective...😂 what is just very controversial, seeing how much they spend for traditional one, and seeing the 'result' of that.
Sorry, am on phone only for a couple of days more and I won’t type it long. Full answer in a couple of days. Short answer- I am an old fashioned guy and twitch is not my thing. I didn’t touch profitability there. Just personal opinion, again. For an objective decision I would need more research and a proper computer 😀
Id even say this has value if the price was right. Its not.
He proposed it cost 2000 USD for 10 hours of streaming from a major account. I knew he was up for a rude awakening. He went out.. credit to him... found twitch accounts. Cheapest option out of 10-20 was 70 000 USD.
2k original projection when proposing it on which he based his disgruntlement of marketing on Hive. 70 thousand the cheapest option he came back with.
he didnt change his tune. I was hoping he would. He went ahead with the poll.
reality has a way of kicking you in the ass.
I propose to finance For the promotion of HIVE
@itharagaian who I notify so that he sees this post
I Would sponsor YOUTUBERS as their videos remain there for a long while, while Twitchers 's video are gone after MAX 1 month.
Pretty sure, youtubers are not for Hive budget. Twitch streamers are cheaper + Twitch is much smaller, do it for 4-5 top100 and 10-20 smaller ones, in different categories, through few weeks, the word can spread there and reach more people.
I think this poll is missing the option 'save the money for later' ;)
Hive is not ready for massive adoption.
True! (why do they spend money for, operate 4-5 front-ends?)
How I see, it never will be. (according to plan?) money spent for traditional marketing - what is not working - and keep projects, front-ends alive. No grants for new ones, funds by small step-by-steps to new projects, where they really have to deliver something, not just make a promise and grab money.
I know dozen other generally good ideas, projects in crypto space from last few years, what were walked in the Hive-shoes. Small chain, few k users, slow development (later no devs, apps around), money spent wrong (or went to the few pockets), and within few years, they've died.
I agree with those guys, who say, the only reason why Hive is still alive, is the Splinterlands, and the hype around that time.
I have seen this river before, what Hive stepped in, even on chart, since it broke big support around 0.3-0.35, it would take years to recover from that, and fundamentally, just nothing happens, general community value is dropping, too.
Anyway, Hive is out for me from the picks for this crypto circle, and I am pretty confident, it cannot survive one more cycle (4 years more), the same way, how the previous few years were.
...maybe in a few years, if the basic structure ever becomes more solid. For now Hive is far from what it promises.